Talk:Jim Jordan/Archive 1

Archive 1

References

I have added citations for most of the unsourced information. Ideally I would like to find a better source for his abortion voting record, but it will do for now. Tytrain (talk) 21:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I tagged the article as "one source." Most of the biography and Ohio Senate history comes almost word-for-word from his official website. Although much of the information is NPOV and appropriate, it would be better to have some additional sources. I'll tweak some of the POV phrases to get them more neutral. Any help finding sources would be appreciated. Tytrain (talk) 22:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. --VWBot (talk) 12:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The article has been reverted by a bot to this version to remove User:CAFESDO's contributions as they have a history of extensive copyright violation and so it is assumed that all of their major contributions are copyright violations. VWBot (talk) 12:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The contributions in question of this article do not appear to be copyright violations at all. I have restored this changes. Tytrain (talk) 15:09, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Please do not restore material before ensuring that it is not a copyright violation. In this case the content added to the article says:

Jordan has been subject to speculation about a possible 2012 U.S. Senate race aimed at unseating Democratic U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown, who will seek a second term.

and the source says:

Jordan, who was re-elected on Tuesday, has been the subject of speculation about a possible 2012 U.S. Senate race aimed at unseating U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, who is expected to seek a second term.

Accordingly, I have re-removed the content. The facts can be used, but must be rewritten from scratch in order to avoid creating a close paraphrase copyright violation. VernoWhitney (talk) 01:22, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Defender of Trump

Appearing on CNN on June 8, 2017, He expressed and defended Trump's position on the day of Comey testimony. Establishing his faction as staunch defenders of the administration might be a worthy topic for a new section in the article.--Wikipietime (talk) 11:32, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Oct 13, 2017, appearance with CNN Jake Taper to defend CSR move by Trump.--Wikipietime (talk) 11:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

The main article appears to none too subtly attack Jordan as part of the wrestling scandal, and that is doubtless because Jordan is a defender of Trump and almost all Wikipedia articles slant toward a pro-Democrat outlook. I'd prefer to see Wikipedia be politically neutral, but its pro-Left bias is all too visible in almost every article, and in this one as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.216.213 (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

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A recent event in the news

I'm removing this material per BALASP policy, which says that impartial discussion of recent news reports may be disproportionate to their overall significance to the topic.

Jordan was an assistant wrestling coach with the Ohio State University's wrestling program from 1986 to 1994. In July 2018, former wrestlers that Jordan coached at the Ohio State University accused Jordan of failing to stop a team doctor from sexually assaulting them and other students. The former wrestlers said that it would have been impossible for Jordan to be unaware and one wrestler said that he told Jordan about the sexual assaults at the time. Jordan claimed that he was unaware of any abuse and his office did not respond to investigator's interview requests.

Eds: Don't restore this information until you get consensus here. Admins: Likewise, don't full-protect it. Many thanks! --Dervorguilla (talk) 21:08, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

The article needs to cover the allegations, which are serious and have been reported by RS. The last sentence is problematic and I deleted a similar version of it earlier. The last sentence should simply read "Jordan rejected the accusations that he had knowledge of the alleged sexual assaults" or something along those lines. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

The wise thing is perhaps to take this to the BLP noticeboard. There's usually not a lot of traffic on the talk pages of House Reps. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:15, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't see how or why Jordan was an assistant wrestling coach with the Ohio State University's wrestling program from 1986 to 1994. is recentism or an NPOV issue and feel you should re-add that sentence. Removing the rest seems reasonable until there's consensus for a specific addition being neutrally worded, and/or the news situation has developed further. I also agree that WP:BLPN is more likely to get discussion than this talk page. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:25, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

That information is already mentioned in the immediately preceding graf. Also that ref is more about the recent event. Signing off, Dervorguilla (talk) 21:32, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

There is no mention of Jordan's tenure as assistant wrestling coach at OSU 1986-1994 currently in the article. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:34, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I brought this to the attention of the BLP noticeboard[1]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:44, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Snooganssnoogans: You're absolutely right that "There is no mention of Jordan's tenure as assistant wrestling coach at OSU 1986-1994 currently in the article." My error! And he was indeed a coach there (but from 1987 to 1995, not 1986 to 1994).

Here's the corrected information, with a "preferred" source under the RS guideline, which says that older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing.

Jordan was an assistant wrestling coach with Ohio State University's wrestling program from 19867 to 19945.

References

The USAToday item doesn't give as much detail about his early life, education, and career. OK to substitute the WaPo backgrounder? --Dervorguilla (talk) 02:41, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 03:05, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: Many thanks for your observation! The information in that sentence wasn't accurate, though. I'm correcting it and adding a "preferred" source per the WP:RP AGE policy. --Dervorguilla (talk) 02:55, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

More reporting today: "Fourth Ohio State wrestler says Rep. Jim Jordan knew about sexual abuse when he was coach".[2] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Trump spoke on this issue. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

That's going to bring people here. The article needs to be watched. Jonathunder (talk) 23:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

This is a major news item with multiple allegations that at least needs to be acknowledged. People come here for facts. Amcarroll32 (talk) 23:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Amcarroll32: I'm interpreting your comment as an objection on grounds of IAR policy. If a rule prevents you from improving [the encyclopedia], ignore it. Sustained! ☺ But can we timely achieve a WP:CONSENSUS about improving this part of the article? Yes! Most interested editors (whether conservative or liberal) regard the Wall Street Journal as a high-quality mainstream source with no real axe to grind. More coming up... --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:00, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 07:32, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The issue should be included, but we do need to be quite careful about how we word the inclusion, and take care not to make implications beyond what's found in the sources. I agree with Snooganssnoogans that the previous version was problematic, particularly the last sentence which carried more than a little "he's hiding something" implication in the wording. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:23, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

To me, the 67-word passage below seems more informative than the older material - which stated that some (as-yet undetermined number - 8 of 150?) former wrestlers said that they (somehow) knew he knew. And since we're operating under IAR policy right now, the rule that really applies is: "Does adding this material improve the encyclopedia?"

In early July 2018, several former wrestlers said that they believed he was had been aware of, but didn't respond to, allegations of sexual misconduct by team doctor Richard Strauss. If he had seen abuse at the time, Jordan replied, "I would have done something about it." Former wrestler Dunyasha Yetts said he was "lying." Former UFC world champion Mark Coleman said, "He knew as far as I'm concerned."

References

Per WP:IAR policy, it may be OK to just go ahead and add this material forthwith! Further improvements would be helpful, obviously. And if you believe that adding it doesn't improve the article at all, just go ahead and revert (in part or even in full). Either way, please explain here. Many thanks! --Dervorguilla (talk) 06:27, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 06:42, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 07:07, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I just went ahead and added it. But in hindsight, this sentence looks like it may be overkill. Former wrestler Dunyasha Yetts said he was "lying". I'll let someone else revert it, though. --Dervorguilla (talk) 07:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The current passage looks good to me and factual based on the information that has been published / printed so far. I appreciate you getting that back in there. Amcarroll32 (talk) 13:25, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I removed the sentence Dervorguilla indicated may be overkill. The sentence after it is enough. Jonathunder (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Ohio State Sex scandal involving Dr. Richard Strauss

It should be on the page.

How many more days will Trumpsters stop it from happening? They'll eventually lose the edit war but - as usual - they ruin everything. Sad.

AllThatJazz2012 (talk) 07:35, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes it is, but the section describing it should be small and follows WP:NPOV and WP:TMI. The article is already protected from unregistered and new created accounts. FunksBrother (talk) 18:11, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

It should be on the page, and it deserves its own article: Ohio State sex abuse scandal Fluous (talk) 18:06, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Bias on this page

The introduction of the page focuses heavily on the Ohio State University sexual abuse scandal, but it does not address several key factors. It ignores the fact that 7 coaches and over 20 wrestlers who were involved with Ohio State wrestling have supported Rep. Jordan's denials. If the article is going to give credence to Jordan's accusers, it has to acknowledge his far more numerous defenders in the OSU wrestling program.

The "Ohio State University sex abuse scandal" section does not address Jordan's defenders either. None of these sections address the fact that Jordan's two primary accusers, Michael DiSabato and Dunyasha Yetts, both have criminal records. DiSabato has a long-standing feud with Ohio State University and a personal vendetta against the Jordan family. Yetts has served time in prison for fraud, a crime of dishonesty, and thus should not be taken seriously as an accuser.

Hold my jacket - You cited no RS materials and focused on victim shaming. I'm guessing that you are a paid PR Flack, Jordan staffer or relative? ExCITEable (talk) 15:57, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

The introductory section should include the fact that Jordan has announced his candidacy for Speaker of the House.

A fairer way to describe the Freedom Caucus in the introduction would be to describe them as the "most conservative contingent of the House Republican Conference."

References

7Fury7 (talk) 15:29, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Ian Fury

I'll go ahead and add that he's a candidate for House Speaker to the lede. As for the rest, it's all non-RS, so I'm not going to bother responding. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Undue weight

The Ohio State sex scandal section is way overblown in the way of undue weight. The scandal itself is not about Jordan but about the team physician and about those bringing the allegations against him, therefore an entire section on this is unwarranted. The content on it in the lead is unwarranted and needs to be removed. The section in question is also focused on allegations against Jordan that are he said and he said and she might have said, but nothing is concrete or proven. That makes it unencyclopedic content which means it doesn't belong in the capacity it currently exists. There needs to be a subsection on his time as coach at the university in the "early life, education, and career" section with a mention of the scandal. But, since nothing has come of the "I think he saw something even though the facts aren't there to prove it" accusations, there's little to say on it in this encyclopedia article. As it is, what's there is more National Enquirer or People Magazine than encyclopedic. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 19:41, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

• The sources give significant weight to Jordan's role in the scandal, even including his name in headlines. The accusations themselves are a significant event regardless of the outcome. –dlthewave ☎ 12:37, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

He didn't have a "role in the scandal". He's denied it repeatedly and there is zero proof he knew anything. In fact, there are now retractions of accusations against him which are coming out. This is undue weight, he's not even at the center of the scandal or in the periphery. The amount of space used in this article for the scandal is ridiculous. It's so overblown you would think he committed a crime. But maybe that's the point? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 15:03, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• I think it's fine not to cover it in the lede, but the abundant RS coverage justifies substantial coverage in the body. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

It smells more like a Jim Jordan fanboy being willing outright to overlook the substantial evidence in the press of Jim Jordan's implication in this scandal. Furthermore, Jim Jordan has made his political career out of cowardly attacking patriots, like Bob Mueller and Rod Rosenstein, who have served both Republican and Democratic administrations, so even if the allegations against him were false (which they aren't), then it'd just be a case of beautiful karma. Lucas Donald Velour (talk) 20:04, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

It seems as though Jordon would have had to be pretty dense not to have known it. Although tourists may note that it rains a lot at some destination, but travel agents, golf course owners, etc., don't mention it, doesn't mean that the vagaries of weather become debatable or that only some unique visitors get wet. The proclivities of Alex Kozinski, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump and Bill O'Reilly were well known, but it was not in the interests of many observers to acknowledge them. Karma is not a reason for inclusion: "Just the facts ma'am." Activist (talk) 15:59, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I think it should be added to the first paragraph. The Penn State abuse scandal is in the first paragraph of Joe Paterno's wiki just as the OSU scandal should be listed for Jordan. There is zero evidence that substantiates Jordan's repeated assertions asssertions that he has been vindicated. Blaming or discrediting the victims is the stuff of the guilty. Jordan is the self-proclaimed "King of the Sauna", he had a locker next to Strauss, 53 of the 177 victims were wrestlers and Jordan once said "if he (Strauss) ever tried anything with me, I'd kill him". Jordan's legacy is his failure to protect the kids on his team from a predator - there will be sanctions from the NCAA and OSU will eventually compensate the victims, but money doesn't matter - what matters is that Jordan was an adult coach who did nothing to protect the kids on his team. Enough "wrestling with the truth" - the evidence is overwhelming. https://www.sbnation.com/longform/2015/12/22/10626658/the-last-wrestler (2015 profile and interview by Ohio freelance writer Daniel McGraw) https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/why-jim-jordan-denies-knowledge-of-sexual-abuse-ohio-state-699465/ (compiles RS citations) ExCITEable (talk) 15:34, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Ohio State allegations sections

I have removed a few lines from that section that were not relevant to Jordan, as well as for BLP reasons. Now that the election is far behind us, that topic seems to have completely died down, and doesn't have much enduring notability. Per BLP concerns, please discuss here before reinserting. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

It is also interesting to note that there is no mention of any of this on the head coach Russ Hellickson page. I wonder why? Mr Ernie (talk) 11:13, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Hellickson doesn't have a national profile. If you think it should be on his page, feel free to add it. Activist (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Russ Hellickson is an olympic medalist, hall of fame member etc. He has engaged in witness tampering and is "Head Coach A" in the Perkins Coie investigation paid for by OSU. I added the scandal to his page with additional detail about the conspiracy between Jim Jordan, his brother Jeff and Hellickson to contact and pressure victims' families. All RS cited. If wikipedia is meant to preserve history, Hellickson, Jordan, Sandusky, Paterno, Nassar and Paterno should not be allowed to edit out their immorality or crimes. ExCITEable (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

add, Jordan Facing New Accusation That He Ignored Warnings Of Sexual Abuse At OSU ?

• Jordan Facing New Accusation That He Ignored Warnings Of Sexual Abuse At OSU on YouTube Nov 8, 2019 NBC News

X1\ (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

He denies receiving any warnings. Take care about BLP here. Jordan's denied all of the allegations and there is no evidence that he ignored or overlooked anything. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

If anybody actually reads this, Russ Hellickson said "I will defend Jimmy until I have to put my hand on a Bible and be asked to tell the truth, then Jimmy will be on his own.” Before Hellickson dies of shame or under mysterious circumstances someone should put him in the hot seat (under oath). Jordan will never admit the truth - he's a tough little scrapper who has spent his life looking up to almost everyone (he's a little fella, you know).

Rant aside, this is a developing story and should be updated in real time instead of after the settlements are reached. People courageous enough to come forward and acknowledge publicly that they were victimized should not be ignored just because the accused is a political figure. ExCITEable (talk) 15:53, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

OSU abuse allegations

The section on the OSU abuse allegations is significant and belongs in the article. However, as of earlier today, that section was ten (10) paragraphs long, making it the longest section in the entire article. This seemed quite excessive and overly detailed. I have made some WP:BOLD edits to trim it down to three paragraphs. If anyone thinks something specific that I deleted needs to be re-included, I will have no objection. SunCrow (talk) 03:17, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

I think you cut too much. I disagree with your premise that the abuse scandal was over-emphasised. Roughly 50% of Joe Paterno's wikipedia page relates to the abuse scandal at Penn State. Jordan was the "King of the Sauna" and his locker was next to Strauss'. 53 of the 177 victims identified in the 2019 independent Perkins Coie OSU Report were wrestlers. Jordan's intimate knowledge and close proximity to the abuse is inly revealed through detail. Removing the detail makes it too easy for PR flacks and repetition to diminish or obfuscate the fact that Jordan knew kids on his team were being abused and was too much of a coward to simply dial 911. Te quotes and detail should be restored and preserved for the record. Facts are facts. I added this section in the first place (then registered, then read up on the rules and form). While I disagree with your edits and believe that you over-simplified the issue, your writing is concise and very well done. ExCITEable (talk) 13:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Unlock the page - it is being used to "spin" Jordan's role in the OSU abuse scandal

Partisans are minimizing Jordan's role in the OSU scandal and deleting properly sourced quotes and facts that are relevent. The page should not be locked if a chosen few can delete RS citations made before it was locked.ExCITEable (talk) 13:49, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

You will be able to edit the article tomorrow. Relevance is the minimum bar for inclusion. The content also as to be encyclopedic, properly sourced, WP:DUEWEIGHT, and there has to be consensus for inclusion. You will have to be very specific about your concerns and assume that others are here to improve the encyclopedia as I'm sure you are. WP:DS is a good read as well. - MrX 🖋 14:23, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism

A very NPOV IP editor logging in from Greenville, South Carolina, deleted reliably sourced paragraphs on Dec. 1, but they were quickly restored by another editor. Activist (talk) 11:36, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Add Notable Quotes?

Does a notable quotes category meet the WP standards? Obviously only RS. ExCITEable (talk) 15:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Sexual misconduct passage should be deleted

That sexual misconduct on the part of a physician may have occurred while Jordan was assistant coach is not Jordan's fault. The passage is unfair and should be deleted. Irrelevant to Jordan's biography, its inclusion may nevertheless color the reader's impression of Jordan. 71.32.45.99 (talk) 00:11, 7 February 2020 (UTC)Karl Pomeroy

Our rules here do not allow us to delete such properly-sourced content. It has been covered by all RS and thus warrants coverage here, especially because "at least eight former wrestlers said that Jordan had been aware of, but did not respond to, allegations of sexual misconduct by Strauss." If he had been distant to these events, and there were no suspicions about him knowing and failing to act, we would not cover it, but that is not the case. On the contrary, he was there and did nothing, so much so that those around him say he did know what was happening. That's what witnesses and RS say, and we must document it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:57, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Disputed content

Earlier today, ExCITEable added a good deal of content regarding the OSU abuse scandal (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)&diff=940520390&oldid=940423139). That content included the following:

In February, 2020, NBC News reported additional information regarding Jim Jordan's witness interference, intimidation and tampering. According to Newsweek and NBC News, Adam DiSabato, the brother of Mike DiSabato, an OSU Wrestler who was one of the first victims of Strauss to publicly accuse Strauss, Hellickson, Jordan, and OSU of failing to report the ongoing sexual abuse of wrestling team members to the University or Police, testified under oath that: "Jim Jordan called me crying, groveling...begging me to go against my brother.... That's the kind of cover-up that's going on there,"

In a videotaped deposition under oath in February, 2020, Adam DiSabato stated: "He (Jordan) is throwing us all under the bus, he's a coward. A coward. He is not a leader, he's a coward... I was Captain of our team, I would never abandon our Team. He (Jordan) abandoned us; our Head Coach (Hellickson) abandoned us - he's flipped his story and called other people to flip their stories."

The edit summary reads as follows: "Added new 2/2020 Adam DiSabato testimony under oath that Jim Jordan is a a coward who has intimidated and pressured witnesses regarding his failure to report abuse of children he was coaching".

The added material seemed repetitive and POV, so I removed the paragraph beginning "In a videotaped deposition..." (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)&diff=next&oldid=940521938). I also reorganized the article a bit (it needed it) and removed a sentence quoting John Boehner as having called Jordan an "asshole" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)&diff=940524083&oldid=940522359).

In response, ExCITEable reverted my edits. The first revert (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)&diff=next&oldid=940524083) was accompanied by the following edit summary: "Not sure if SunCrow is a paid staffer or not but the fact that Speaker Boehner (also from Ohio) stated that Jordan "is an asshole" and "was a terrorist" going back to his service in the Ohio State Legislature is documented, relevant to his political career as an outspoken public person and does not violate the BLP rules. Change it back and keep trying to gild the lily SunCrow - it'll just get reverted". However, the revert also undid a bunch of other noncontroversial material that had nothing to do with the "asshole" comment.

The second revert (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)&diff=next&oldid=940536223) reinstated the paragraph I had deleted regarding the OSU scandal. It was accompanied by the following edit summary: "replaced the deleted Adam DiSabato RS video deposition link. Jordan is a coward who abandoned his team (sure, that's my opinion, however, this is publicly available sworn videotaped testimony by a contemporaneous witness. Delete is SunCrow - Sunshine is a disinfectant and you will not rewrite history.)"

I reinstated the structural edits I had made (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)&diff=next&oldid=940539753) and added the following edit summary: "reinstate structural edits that improved the article and were reverted without justification. i have left the 'asshole' comment in the article and will take it to the talk page.)

The following two bits of content are in dispute:

In the videotaped deposition, Adam DiSabato stated under oath: "He (Jordan) is throwing us all under the bus, he's a coward. A coward. He is not a leader, he's a coward... I was Captain of our team, I would never abandon our Team. He (Jordan) abandoned us; our Head Coach (Russ Hellickson) abandoned us - he's flipped his story and called other people to flip their stories."

In a Politico article published October 29, 2017, John Boehner, former speaker of the U. S. House of Representatives, called Jordan "an asshole". Boehner said "Jordan was a terrorist as a legislator going back to his days in the Ohio house and senate."

I contend that the first paragraph is repetitive of the previous paragraph, is undue, and is an effort to hammer away at Jordan in violation of WP:NPOV. I contend that the second is undue and is a cheap shot. Does anyone have any thoughts?

I will be making further edits to the page, as there are several instances where blatantly biased language is included. The conduct from ExCITEable will be addressed on his talk page. SunCrow (talk) 09:51, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

I think the witness tampering & refusal to cooperate are not POV but are established facts from multiple RS. Adam DiSabato's testimony warrants inclusion because he was team captain and his brother was the initial whistleblower.

As for the systematic abuse of athletes at OSU by Strauss being an "allegation" - it simply isn't. The Ohio Governor held an inquiry and published findings of fact based on reports to the Ohio Medical Licensing Board and OSU issued an additional report. I don't see how it builds the wiki to list his employment and college win/loss record without including the fact that

"during his tenure as an Assistant Coach at OSU, at least 50 members of the wrestling team were sexually abused by the team physician". ExCITEable (talk) 15:03, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Sources

ExCITEable, if "the Ohio Governor held an inquiry and published findings of fact...and OSU issued an additional report" on the abuse situation, why not grab some sources and put that information into this article? It would certainly be relevant and notable, and you're right that it would make accounts of the alleged abuse "more than an allegation". Right now, however, all I see in this article consists of allegations. IMO, it would really add to the article if info about investigations and investigation results were included. SunCrow (talk) 03:16, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

The sexual abuse scandal should probably be mentioned in lead because it is one of the more significant points contributing to Jordan's notability. It has to be carefully worded so as not to imply culpability. Boehner's asshole comment is not encyclopedic. {{tq|"During his tenure as assistant coach, at least 53 members of the team were sexually abused by the team physician. Jordan has refused to cooperate with any of the investigations into the scandal."} doesn't belong on under §Early life, education and early career. Specific comments taken from depositions or testimony is probably not appropriate for this article, but I guess that's debatable. - MrX 🖋 15:49, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I disagree that these allegations should be in the lead. They are unproven and border on BLP offenses. Jordan is not notable for this. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:18, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

You probably should familiarize yourself with WP:WELLKNOWN. We cannot hide something simply because it's unfavorable to the subject. This controversy has contributed significantly to Jordan's notability. - MrX 🖋 19:38, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

The vast majority of people are likely more familiar with Jordan’s outspoken defense of Trump in the House rather than unsubstantiated allegations from when he was an assistant coach. The allegations deserve a mention but not a place in the lead. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:52, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

While I can only speak to the perennial nature of this issue being brought up n a national level (which it certainly is, across multiple reliable sources), I will say that this is also brought near constantly on a regional level. I’m a resident of Ohio, and this is a near-weekly occurrence. Local TV and radio outlets in Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati, NPR, et cetera. It’s a major point of discussion both nationally and regionally. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 06:33, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

This seems to be getting more attention and witness's are speaking to the press more openly now. Heres a new referance that was just posted today https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/06/politics/jordan-osu-wrestlers-strauss-invs/index.html I also agree this should be in the lead now. Jordan is known for this as much as anything else. ContentEditman (talk) 23:43, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Coronavirus Relief Bill

Jim Jordan voted against the Coronavirus Relief Bill that passed in the House on March 14, 2020. Can that be mentioned on this page? Seems like an important position on a major international issue.Harry mattison (talk) 14:18, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

UNDUE absent larger context. It should be noted HM added this same material to a large number of articles at the same time. Springee (talk) 12:40, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

RMD requirement for 2020.

With the market tanked it would be very helpful if we could suspend the RMD requirement on both IRA’s and 401K’s for the remainder of 2020. Of course I realize this should be an option as some may need the money even if it reduces their balances. For others, like myself I would like to allow our accounts to recover before taking monies out in the form of RMD requirement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Retiredin2001 (talk • contribs) 04:01, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion of son-in-law in “Personal life” section

Should the sourced fact that NBA player Jarrod Uthoff is Jordan’s son in law remain in Jordan’s personal life section? It is public info and not controversial. I believe that it should stay as the “personal life” sections in WP biographies usually do include notable relatives. But the info has been removed several times of late. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 19:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The fact one of his kids married someone notable isn't important to Jordon's own biography. Unless that connection somehow impacts his own personal or professional life in a meaningful way, it is trivia. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 20:41, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I think having notable relatives is worth calling out, if the familial relationship is verified through third party sources, which in this case it is. I re-read all of WP:TRIVIA and could not find a specific section or sentence you are referring to. Can you please clarify what part of WP:TRIVIA would exclude Uthoff from being mentioned in Jordan's article? SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Personally I think it is important enough to include. Don't see how it violates TRIVIA. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 01:43, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Additional citations

There are a number of citations needed for his early career. I recommend using this page from the Congressional Record ColdDeepLake (talk) 04:51, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Image is inaccurate and needs to be replaced

The image needs to be replaced. Jordan rarely wears a suitjacket, to the point of several news outlets commenting about that. He shouldn't be wearing a suitjacket in his main image. I proposed an alternate image, but was reverted. pbp 00:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

It is the profile/bio photo provided on his official website. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 01:57, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Jim Jordan's gerrymandered congressional district

Not sure why administrators question why Jim Jordan's congressional district is not identified as being gerrymandered in the lead since it is well cited that a 3 panel Federal judges ruled that his district and all of Ohio's congressional districts have been illegally drawn up by the state GOP to favor the federal GOP, and have been ordered to redraw their maps in time for the 2020 election, of which the state has refused to do it. As a result, the courts will be redrawing it. Of all the districts, Jim Jordan's district was the leading evidence of the case, and his district would not have existed if not for gerrymandering, nor would he have been a member of the U.S. Congress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8803:FF08:100:E189:84D:85E6:856B (talk) 00:46, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

It makes sense to include this, but also in the body of the article. -- Valjean (talk) 01:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Refusal to acknowledge Biden victory is DUE

This is a prominent member of Congress. I fail to understand how "Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d"'s claim that it's a WP:NOTNEWS violation to include content about the member of Congress refusing to acknowledge Biden's victory in the 2020 election.[3] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:55, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

That's just not true. Jordan clearly says: "He won the election...Joe Biden is going to be sworn in as president." How is that refusing to acknowledge Biden's win? Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

No, he did not recognize that Biden won legitimately. Per the cited source, "“We all want healing. But in order to get to healing, we need truth, and we need accountability,” McGovern said. “So my question for you is: Will you admit that Joe Biden won fair and square, and the election was not rigged or stolen?” McGovern’s question was met with 17 seconds of silence before Jordan said Biden would indeed be inaugurated president — a clear dodge of the question about the nature of Biden’s victory." The Washington Post explicitly says he dodged, and so should we.[4] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

No, he acknowledged that Biden won. He didn't specifically address if Biden won "fair and square" in McGovern's question. It's undue to include every instance where a politician doesn't specifically address every part of a question from their political opponents. This won't last the 24-hour news cycle. Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 00:40, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

The question was in relation to "fair and square". A member of Congress refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of an elected president is DUE, as shown by coverage in RS, such as the Washington Post[5], Boston Globe[6] and Wall Street Journal[7]. You may personally find these anti-democratic hijinks insignificant, but reliable sources clearly disagree. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

My personal opinions are irrelevant. The crux of the matter is that Jordan clearly acknowledged that Biden will be president. The fact that he didn't address part of a question from a political rival is routine news reporting and undue. There is no lasting impact on this. Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 01:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Looks like a very POINTY edit. Springee (talk) 01:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the concerns of Snooganssnoogans, and I suggest the edit is reinstated. The new editor who removed the material seems to be engaged in problematic behaviour removing relevant and well-sourced critical material in numerous articles on various hard-right figures; the removal was clearly POV and unjustified. --Tataral (talk) 04:10, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2021

Jim Jordan was aware of a colleague committing rape, and choose to not act. Jim Jordan is complicit in the sexual abuse of students he was responsible for. 2603:8001:7003:F1F4:C938:E18D:D5EF:653B (talk) 22:37, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Unless and until you can supply a citation of a reliable source stating that Jordan has been charged and convicted of complicity in the sexual abuse of Ohio State University athletes, we will not state that Jordan is complicit in the abuse in this article. Allegations of his involvement are already discussed in the section Ohio State University abuse scandal. General Ization ^Talk 23:00, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Ohio State Abuse Scandal

Shouldn't this be its own drop down? A) a large number of people coming to the page will be wanting to know about it B) it has been an ongoing court issue and is not neatly "early career" and is C) one of the more prominent aspects of his media life. 194.193.179.101 (talk) 23:22, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Harassment of fact checkers and disinformation experts

Similarly to how the GOP attempted to push conspiracy theories and uncertainty propaganda in relation to climate scientists, it's the turn of academics studying and exposing disinformation. Jordan seems to have a conflict of interest as someone involved in pushing it, but is also, under the ironic pretense of protecting free speech, part of a campaign to silence academia... And a few more sources about various recent activity: —PaleoNeonate – 15:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

References

By all means, if Jordan is verifiably involved with these to a notable extent, and you have good notable NPOV sources saying so, it's certainly reasonable to include that info here. Those look like good sources to me, so have at it.

Also, I don't know how we're handling this stuff, but I think it's fine to say "false allegations of election fraud" etc rather than just "allegations of election fraud" or "unproven allegations of election fraud, if we have strong sources saying so, which we do. Most major sources say it like that I believe, besides which WP:SKYISBLUE -- we don't say "controversial statements that the Holocaust is a hoax" an so on. Anybody who doesn't like that should be encouraged to go read/edit Conservopedia instead. Herostratus (talk) 17:10, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Um, POV and BLP violations here.

Let me lay down my marker first: I absolutely loathe this person (as a mere personal opinion, I think -- think -- its not a WP:BLP violation to write this; redact me if I'm wrong). I hope he steps on a Lego with bare feet. Or worse! I expect that the majority by far of people working on this article feel similarly. So, I really hate that I have to make this post. But we are Wikipedians first and all doesn't matter. Let's discuss the matters at hand with ice-cold fairmindednes

So, there is a quite long section about the Ohio State University abuse scandal. So, imagine if this was Bernie Sanders or some other politician you like. Here we have a situation where

• The person was not convicted of any crime, or even arrested or indicted, I think?
• The did not lose a lawsuit, or even settle one, or was even sued, I think?
• The info isn't very germane to his public career.
• He totally and vehemently denies it.

Under WP:BLP you can't do do that. Thare's no "she deserves it" or "conviction or no, she's obviously guilty" exception. For one reason, that would be a slippery slope.

The issue hasn't really affected his political career. It's not like Watergate or Gary Hart with the Monkey Business or the Al Franken thing or like that. He still gets elected. He's still the chair of an important committee. It's not affecting his public career much. It's just something that his enemies wave around to little effect, and they hate him anyway, and hella politicians have various peccadilloes and allegations waved at them by their enemies to little effect. If he's voted out or recalled or censured or investigated by the ethics committee or expelled or what have you, that'd be different. But he hasn't been and isn't likely to be.

Comparing again to Bernie Sanders, I believe there was some thing where as a young activist he wrote a really embarassing editorial or something. Means nothing much and most everyone makes gaffes like that, but it is part of his public record and career, and has been brought up by enemies. There was also something a about a (minor, I think) real estate shenanigans. Well neither of those are even mentioned in his article that I could find.

So, and I'm not accusing any or some of us of doing this deliberately, it's very understandable, but this isn't fair to Jordan. The whole section has to go. We can talk about the scandal and his reported role in it as minimally and gently as we can possibly do without compromising our encyclopedic mission. Herostratus (talk) 17:44, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I probably despise him more than you. But, I also agree there is too much here, particularly as it has its own article. Looks like it was added in 2019, when the story was still highly active. Seems to me a paragraph with the main article link would do. Should wait to see if the originators of the section are watching. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I cut it back to one paragraph. It's still not a good look for Jordon, but I mean there's really no way to mention it all without making him look bad. And there's a link right there to full article on the scandal. Herostratus (talk) 17:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

This is an improvement. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:28, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Where Jordan's wealth comes from

the Wikipedia page fails to cover this Representative's business interest or personal wealth. He isn't a regular guy, he make $1,000,000 in profits from his share or several companies. Where did he get these companies, he was a low level college wrestling coach, not exactly a high paying job. 69.54.142.165 (talk) 23:54, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources? WP:RS O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 4 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved  — Amakuru (talk) 18:18, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

---

Jim Jordan (American politician) → Jim Jordan – The politician is the primary topic due to long term significance and pageviews (with about 32x the daily average viewership than the next most viewed article). Note that Jim Jordan (actor) is commonly referred to as "Fibber McGee" as opposed to Jim Jordan which was one of his few acting roles. Also note that this does not include articles titled "James Jordan". Sahaib (talk) 19:03, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support Agreed that this Jim Jordan is clearly the most significant and relevant subject. Kafoxe (talk) 23:56, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Support clear primary topic. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:57, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, though it's not necessarily a runaway. All-time pageviews (since 2015) show that the US Representative gets 14.7x the traffic of all others with the name (93.6% of total), which is less than I expected but significant. On the other hand, I expected Google Scholar search results to be mixed, but the US Representative far outstrips Fibber McGee in the first two pages of a search for "jim jordan" -author:jordan (which returned a few hits for the missing subject Jim Jordan (conjure doctor) [8]). Moving this page is likely to help most readers, as this is the main target from the dab page James Jordan (to which Jim Jordan currently redirects). Hameltion (talk | contribs) 01:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Easily the most relevant, discussed, and targeted topic under James Jordan, both from inter and intra site traffic feeding into the topic page. Ashercip (talk) 05:06, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and page view ratio. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:27, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support based on pageview data. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 15:33, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Support based on name recognition and importance and significant page views Moneymanmark (talk) 13:27, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support Clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC now. Noah, AA^Talk 14:06, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support: Clearly the most important out of any article named Jim Jordan (also named "James" or "Jimmy" due to variations in name usage). HarukaAmaranth ^春_香 23:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support: Clearly the primary topic as per nomm. Drdpw (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support: Most notable Jim Jordan (I wouldn’t take in account James or Jimmy as those are different titles and hatnotes can solve that). cookie monster 755 15:00, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Support: Jim Jordan is one of the most popular politicians in the United States right now and there is no "second Jim Jordan" to be confused of. EloquentEditor (talk) 16:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Veterans Issues

Jim Jordan has a habit of voting “nay” on essential Veterans bills. More than once. Here is a quick write-up which was stripped from Jordan’s article because it lacked sources and was allegedly bias. Here is the “work in progress” and I hope someone can embed it into the article when it is finalized.

Veterans

Jordan has never served in the military. The PACT ACT which expanded VA benefits to veterans exposed to toxic chemicals during their military service, received a "nay" from Jordan. Regarding cannabis, despite lobbying from VSOs such as the DAV Jordan also voted against the 2016 Veterans Equal Access Amendment.

Twillisjr (talk) 15:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC) Twillisjr (talk) 15:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Political positions

This wiki does a disservice by not detailing any of the geopolitical issues of today (Ukraine, China, Gaza, North Korea).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:444:501:1382:ed0a:86d3:b1bd:ed53 (talk) 20:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Factual error under Political Positions/Donald Trump

Please change "Democrats protested Jordan's behavior and urged their fellow senators representatives to allow Strzok to respond."

The lawmakers in question are not senators, they are representatives. 152.132.16.22 (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Correct.  Done – Muboshgu (talk) 17:12, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Son in law

It is disingenuous to refer to Jim’s son-in-law as a professional basketball player. While technically true if we consider Japan’s b-league “professional,” it is at most extremely misleading. While a minor point, it should be clarified in the main text of his page that his son-in-law plays “professional basketball in Japan.” 166.205.147.32 (talk) 18:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2023

In the second to last sentence of the “Early life and education” section, please change “an advanced” to “a Juris Doctor” to be more specific and consistent with the bio table.

In the bio table, please change “Capital University” to “Capital University Law School”.

Thank you very much.

Apalpableelysium (talk) 19:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

 Already done The user who submitted this has already implemented their own request. -- Pinchme123 (talk) 04:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Apalpableelysium You are reinventing Jim Jordan. Unfortunately, there are no references that indicate Jim Jordan ever received a Juris Doctorate from Capital University Law School. The university offers other advanced degrees such as an LLM, which permits lawyers to practice or to take the bar, which Jordan apparently never did. I put in that he had an advanced degree, because Capital University says Jordan attended and received a degree without acknowledging which degree that was. So, all that can be confirmed is that he likely received a graduate degree of some sort, not a JD and not a PhD. Otherwise, you are awarding Jordan a degree that there is no evidence that he ever actually earned. I am reverting the irresponsible changes that have been made. Stevenmitchell (talk) 19:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the inflammatory accusation.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/18/55-things-jim-jordan-00122279#:~:text=Jordan%20graduated%20from%20the%20University,never%20took%20the%20bar%20exam. Apalpableelysium (talk) 20:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Jim Jordan's Unreferenced Juris Doctorate

Although certain editors, such as Apalpableelysium, are adding a Juris Doctorate to this article applied to Jim Jordan, there is no actual evidence that Jim Jordan ever received a Juris Doctorate from Capital University Law School. Jordan himself, on his Congressional webpage says that he received a law degree from that university. He doesn't claim a Juris Doctorate. I removed 2 of the 3 references from the Early Education section, because neither of them had any reference to Jim Jordan and his alleged educational achievement. They should not be used in the article because they don't support any claims at all. After a lengthy search, I was unable to find any references on the topic other than Jordan acquired an unspecified law degree. Yet, the editor, Apalpableelysium, has decided to reinvent and falsify Jim Jordan's educational credentials and reinstate these nonsupporting references. Apparently, he or she has a political agenda to promote misinformation on Wikipedia. 2 of those references have no purpose in this article other than to provide the illusory appearance of being referenced. I am going to reinstate this information to the level that Jim Jordan himself claims, rather than the inventions claimed by an anonymous Wikipedia editor.Stevenmitchell (talk) 21:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)