Talk:Jewish Voice for Peace

Reception

This is a hit piece section. It will be dramatically reduced in size. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:23, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Good idea. This came up in November as well but did not get comprehensively addressed. There is a related issue of overquoting too. JArthur1984 (talk) 02:57, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the section grossly overrepresents JVP's critics, but I do feel that the information is relevant and worth having available. I'm thinking of organizing the information, cutting back some of the quotes and more inflammatory language, and moving it to a separate page for criticisms/controversies. A much shorter, more balanced reception section can wikilink to that page. Thoughts? NuanceQueen (talk) 23:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I believe separate "Criticism" articles are generally disfavored and considered a WP:povfork. But the idea of continuing to reduce quotations and such seems very wise. Although there have been some various efforts made to reduce quotations since November, there is more to do. I would encourage that if you are interested! JArthur1984 (talk) 00:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

@JArthur1984 Gotcha, thanks! I'm pretty new to this, so I don't have extended protection permissions yet, but I'll check back when I do and see if it still needs cleaning up. NuanceQueen (talk) 02:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, and happy editing. JArthur1984 (talk) 02:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I have a heavily condensed version with some additional information on post-10/7 coverage in my Sandbox if someone with editing permissions wants to take a look at it. NuanceQueen (talk) 19:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Factual Inaccuracies

Hello all-- confession: I haven't read the whole wiki article yet(!), and I'm sure I'll find more inaccuracies and misrepresentations, but I notice a major factual inaccuracy regarding who/when/where it was founded: it was *NOT* founded by Noam Chomsky or Tony Kushner! It was founded by Julia Caplan, Julie Iny, and Rachel Eisner in 1996 in Berkeley, CA. They were reacting to Israel's opening of an entrance to an archaeological tunnel near Haram al-Sharif in 1996, which touched off Palestinian protests that led to the death of 61 Palestinians and 15 Israeli soldiers. AH -- and I found a (rather crappy) source for this fact: https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-wake-of-war-leftist-self-hating-jews-find-a-voice/ It's also important to note that the original JVP was not anti-zionist. The original founders stopped being involved with the organization pretty soon after founding it, so I don't know how their politics would align with JVP in its current form. 71.183.157.124 (talk) 06:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

There seem to be several other sources that support what you are saying. Also, for interest, "JVP formed in September, 1996 in response to the provocative opening by the Netanyahu government of an archaeological tunnel under Jerusalem's Temple Mount that led to confrontations in which 65 Palestinians and 14 Israelis were killed." And just to show that Wikipedia is not internally consistent, see Young, Jewish, and Left and search for Julia Caplan. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Something worth adding is that the IP initially commented (and later edited) "My grad-school colleague Lincoln Shlensky was one of JVP's co-founding members." I made some lookups on newspapers.com and found this 2001 article where Shlensky is mentioned as a co-founder. Might be worth adding? Either way, I think there's enough coverage to justify adding that JVP was founded by UC Berkeley students. B3251 (talk) 17:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I added the three based on this recent source, no idea about the other. Selfstudier (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

JVP doesn't claim to be a "Jewish" advocacy organization

The first paragraph is deceptive in describing JVP as a "left-wing Jewish advocacy organization". As the hyperlink implies, "The Jewish left consists of Jews who identify with, or support, left-wing or left-liberal causes, consciously as Jews, either as individuals or through organizations." The keywords being "consciously as Jews". There is no requirement to have any ethnic or religious connection to Judaism to become a member of JVP.

From their website: "Do I have to be Jewish to join JVP?"

"No, you don’t. JVP is an organization that is inspired by Jewish values and traditions to work towards peace and justice. We are committed to building an inclusive Jewish community, that, like many of our families, welcomes Jews and allies who share our values and appreciate our traditions, who advocate for an end to Israeli human rights abuses, and who oppose anti-Jewish hatred, anti-Arab racism, and Islamophobia."

The organization is "inspired by Jewish values and traditions" and aims to build an "inclusive Jewish community", but I could not find anything on the website claiming that the majority of their members must identify as Jewish (let alone that any members at all must identify as Jewish) and nothing to indicate that the "we", or executive decision makers of JVP, identify as Jewish or need to. There is also no elaboration as to whether JVP has an opinion over religious aspects of Judaism, such as "Jewish dogmas" that have been embraced by Orthodox Jews. Any conflict in religious ideology would affect membership, separate to political ideology.

The absence of basic knowledge of Judaism was most recently demonstrated by a JVP protest Seder plate (a Passover tradition), that had Hebrew illegibly written left-to-right. It can be assumed at a minimum that the person that wrote the Hebrew phrases can't read Hebrew and has not had formal Jewish education. It would also be questionable as to whether there were any Hebrew readers among protesters involved in the Seder plate since one would assume this mistake would have been pointed out to avoid embarrassment.

If there was an organization called "Palestinian Voice for Peace" that called for Palestinians to leave the Middle East, for example, I don't think the organization would be called a "left-wing Palestinian advocacy organization" just because some early founders or current members happened to be of Palestinian origin. This would be especially dishonest if local chapters were run by Evangelicals or Israelis. Or their printed Arabic slogans were all illegibly written, from left-to-right. 2405:6E00:4DE:649:D4C5:EA2C:22F6:4B40 (talk) 23:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

A personal view that an organization that calls itself Jewish Voice for Peace can't be described as a Jewish advocacy organization despite being described that way by reliable sources like Forward is not really relevant to how content decisions are made in Wikipedia. Content should be based on reliable sources. The argument is essentially an appeal to purity fallacy, which is not a legitimate way to make content decisions. Sean.hoyland (talk) 01:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. I agree with your points. In fact, I believe even an astroturfing operation can still be considered an advocacy group according to the advocacy group article, and using the word "purportedly" with regards to its Jewish connection would be loaded language.

Interestingly, unlike in its article, The Forward simply refers to JVP as "an American anti-Zionist group" in its tag summary. I often wonder how common it is to find circular reporting (or "citogenesis") in seemingly reliable sources. Investigative journalism seems to be the exception rather than the rule. 2405:6E00:4DE:649:2DC6:F5E4:DCF9:F24 (talk) 15:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Correction

While there may be a few factual errors, there has been a concerted campaign against the political positions of Jewish Voice for Peace. This article seems, in its intent balanced. The only thing I can see that may be problematic is the fact that there is any lengthy introduction to JVP, no matter how neutral it is. JVP is no longer afforded the modest welcome from the Anti-Defamation League suggested by former leader Abe Foxman's declaration on anti-zionism: that if an anti-zionist one is opposed to a Jewish homeland he/she is anti-Semitic; but if one is opposed to nationalism across the board, then to be opposed to Zionism may not be anti-Semtic. The more recent CEO of ADL Jonathan Greenblatt changed the orientation and the open embrace of the organization, stating that if one is anti-zionist one is "anti-Semitic. Full stop." The result was the resignation of key staff. ADL, along with AIPAC have encouraged campaigns to bring down the esteem of the organization founded by Tony Kushner, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Wallace Shawn and other liberal Jewish Luminaries, all of them subtle thinkers and writers. Let people be informed about the organization and make up their own minds, rather than taking down all neutral. One needs only to look at the current ADL website to see what (non-neutral) enmity this has aroused. This entry is by and large sound. It is not for non-authors to determine that an entry presents the organization the way it wants to present itself. Disclaimer: I am not a member of JVP, nor any "anti-Semitic" organization. 66.44.26.19 (talk) 19:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)