Talk:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade/Archive 1

Video case

In the case of Last Crusade, one word has been removed from all video versions the world over: During the bit where Donovan offers the Sultan the trunks full of treasure, in the cinema Donovan says that it has been "donated by some of the richest JEWISH families in Germany".

For TV and video broadcast, the word JEWISH has been removed for some reason, despite the fact the line as it stood actually carried a very clever undercurrent which has now been lost. "Donated" indeed! Look at the way the Sultan passes Donovan's face as he says "Jewish", and then pause in the soundtrack: it's very lucky he was in the way so the lips could not be seen moving.

PMelvilleAustin 17:32 Mar 19, 2003 (UTC)

Ending

I wonder, was the grail really lost again at the end of the film? We don't exactly see what happened to the Knight at the end. He had the "aw great, now I gotta clean all this up look" on his face, leading me to wonder if he was able to retrieve the grail after everyone left or not?

JesseG 01:51, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Quotes

Shouldn't the Quotes section be moved to Wikiquote? – Kaonashi 04:40, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hatay

Isn't the area of the grail temple named Hatay? From its article, it was semi-independent in 1938.

• Yup. From the IMDb: In the movie the grail is located in the Republic of Hatay near the city of Alexandretta. There actually was a Republic of Hatay from 1938 to 1939, after the region was granted independence from French Syria and before it became a province of Turkey. The capital of Hatay was Alexandretta before 1939 when the city's name was changed to Iskenderun and the capital moved to Antioch. An early title indicates the movie's action takes place in 1938. james_anatidae 23:50, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Unwittingly?

Schneider unwittingly chooses a false grail for Donovan, killing him.

I always thought she did that on purpose. Doesn't she say afterwards to Indy, "It would not have been made of gold"? (Or does Indy say that?) Acheron 20:16, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, she says that and Indy says, "That's the cup of a carpenter." when he eyes the true Grail. I didn't notice that detail had changed. It originally said "Schneider intentionally chooses a false grail" in fact, so I'll change it. --Mrwojo 20:47, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Trivia

I removed the following bullet from the article:

• In the Venice library, the tomb is surraunded in gas, yet Indy manages to be able to open his eyes and see

I assume it's referring to the part where Indy has his eyes open while swimming to find a way out. This can probably be explained by saying the petroleum was floating on water. I think its worse that the flaming bits falling from the torch don't start a conflagration the way the match does...

In either case, I don't see how this sort of trivia really adds to an encyclopedic article. --Mrwojo 19:47, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The march is called Badenweiler (after the battle of Badenweiler in France (Badonviller in French), not to be confused with the town of Badenweil in Germany). Hitler served in the 16th Bayerisches Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment „List“, originally the Badenweiler was the march of the Königlich-Bayerisches Infanterie-Leibregiment. The Badenweiler, however, was accepted as army march #II-256.

I removed the following line from the trivia section of the article that was taken directly from IMDB :

• This the only film in the trilogy where Indiana Jones wears a tie along with his usual attire (fedora, coat, unbuttoned shirt, and whip).

In Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones is seen wearing a suit and tie while he is teaching his class at the beginning of the movie (right after he gets back from his run-in with Belloq), as well as after he returns the Ark of the Covenant to the United States government (after he leaves the State Department he escorts Marion Ravenwood to "buy her a drink").

I'm pretty sure that trivia bit means he's wearing a tie IN ADDITION TO his trademark hat, jacket and whip (as in at the same time). 204.115.253.51 19:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

While I am not wholly certain he exits the State Department (as opposed to another government office), I do know he wears a suit and tie at least twice in this movie.
Willsmu 16:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• WHy did the trivia section get removed? [1] --evrik ^(talk) 18:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:AVTRIVIA. Alientraveller 19:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

From WP:AVTRIVIA- "This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all." 198.6.46.11 (talk) 17:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Reaction

"This installment in the Indiana Jones series has more humor than the previous two films. The humor is mainly shown through the relationship between Indiana and his father. Also Marcus Brody is a less serious character than his previous appearance in Raiders of the Lost Ark, being described as a museum curator who "once got lost in his own museum". The lightheartedness of the movie especially contrasts to its predecessor Temple of Doom, which is usually cited as the "darkest" in the trilogy."

Unless it mentions the public's (or a critic's) response to this extra humor, this doesn't belong in the "reaction" section. -Lode Runner 09:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Added Template: Splitsection

I recently added the Splitsection template at the start of the soundtrack section, if anyone want to create a new article named Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (soundtrack). David Pro 22:32, 01 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite think a movie soundtrack (unless very popular) should have its own article. I will remove the tag. If you think it should be split, then go ahead and be bold and do it. Reywas92^Talk_Sigs 17:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Königgrätz?

"The march played by the Nazis in Berlin is the "Königgrätzer Marsch" by Johann Gottfried Piefke. It was known as Hitler's favorite march and was often played during his public appearances."

Shouldn't that be the "Badenweiler Marsch"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.13.8.14 (talk) 10:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

I think he was right: it seams the music is "Der Königrätze" (Nazi Bookburning March) 84.90.24.156 (talk) 18:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Trivia (removed from the article)

• It was too difficult to find an airworthy Messerschmitt Bf109 for the escape from the zeppelin, so a Pilatus P-2 was used. The P-2 was a trainer designed in 1942, but not produced until after World War II. The plane was used by the Swiss Air Force until 1981.
• When Indy and Elsa are in the catacombs, they pass a drawing on the wall of the Ark of the Covenant. If you listen closely, you can briefly hear John Williams Ark theme from Raiders of the Lost Ark.
• When Indy attempts to bluff his way into Castle Brunwald by posing as a peevish Scottish nobleman, the Nazi doorman sneers at his feigned accent, claiming "If you're a Scottish lord, then I am Mickey Mouse!" Originally, the doorman was supposed to mention Olympic runner Jesse Owens, but it was feared modern audiences would not know who Owens was.
• Before entering the republic of Hatay, Donovan bribes the sultan with, among other things, a box of jewels donated "by the finest families in Germany." Originally, Donovan was to say the more ominous line "the finest Jewish families in Germany."
• When Indiana, in Berlin disguised as a Nazi officer, accidentally gets Adolf Hitler (played by Michael Sheard, uncredited) to sign his father's journal, the Führer's signature as it appears in the film bears little resemblance to Hitler's actual signature.

[[:Image:Indiana Jones and the Cross of Coronado.jpg|right|thumb|Young Indiana Jones (River Phoenix) holding the Cross of Coronado in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.]]

• In the Boy Scout scene, Indiana Jones is a Life Scout. There are several claims as to why this is:

1. He was supposed to be an Eagle Scout, but the badges are not given out to anyone other than Eagle Scouts, so he had to be just one under. (Critics of this theory note that a costume department with a big budget could have just had one made. Also, prior to 1924, the rank of Star Scout was second to Eagle Scout, and Life Scout was third rank at that time.)
2. Indiana Jones was a Life Scout in honor of Eagle Scout Steven Spielberg's father who had died recently and who earned the rank of Life Scout in his youth.
3. Indy, born in 1899, would have been 13 at the time, and Eagle was much more rigorous and seldom earned until older, until well into the 1940s.

• The scene where Indiana badly impersonates a Scottish accent was included after Steven Spielberg overheard Harrison Ford imitating Sean Connery to a group of crew members.
• The sidecar motorcycle is a BMW R71, in force of German army in 1938.
• For the period (1938) depicted, there was no passenger Zeppelin service in Germany or any other area of the world. The LZ 130 Graf Zeppelin (or Graf Zeppelin II as she is commonly named) did not launch until September 14, 1938 and was never used for passenger travel. The original Graf Zeppelin (LZ 127) was retired from service even earlier, only a month after the infamous Hindenburg explosion.
• The interior of the Zeppelin sequence was filmed in the blistering heat of Spain. Neither Ford nor Connery wore pants during the conversation at the table to get longer takes before having to wipe the sweat from their faces. (Connery's character is wearing a tweed suit and Ford's character had a leather jacket in that scene.)
• There is a curious German sentence in the movie: when Indy and his friends are cornered by the German troopers in the Grail temple, one of them shouts in German, "Das ist ein Überfall!", literally meaning, "This is a robbery!" or "This is a heist!" which bankrobbers yell to intimidate their victims, and thus unrelated to the scene. It remains unclear whether it is supposed to be a hidden joke or a misinterpretation of the foreign language material. Earlier in the film, during the fight on the tank, soldiers inside the tank watch as Indiana is in a fistfight. One of the soldiers asserts, "The Americans - they fight like girls" in flawless German and then gets knocked out by the periscope. It should be noted that there is a very similar misinterpretation of a German expression in Raiders. "Nicht stören" (as in the English "Do not disturb" as used on hotel-doorsigns) was written on the model in the map-room, thus clearly meant as "nicht berühren" (don't touch). In German, "nicht stören" is the wrong expression in this context, just as "Das ist ein Überfall" is in Last Crusade.
• Last Crusade was the first Indiana Jones movie to receive an MPAA rating higher than PG, the recently created PG-13. This was the certificate Spielberg himself was partly responsible for.
• Tom Stoppard performed uncredited rewrites on the dialogue for this film as a favor to George Lucas.
• Sean Connery, Alison Doody, John Rhys-Davies, Julian Glover, and Vernon Dobtcheff all appear in the James Bond series of films. Connery was 007 himself for 7 films (including Never Say Never Again); Doody was a Bond girl in the 1985 movie, A View to a Kill; Rhys-Davies was a Russian general in the 1987 movie, The Living Daylights; Glover played the villain in the 1981 movie, For Your Eyes Only; and Dobtcheff appeared as nightclub owner Max Kalba in 1977's The Spy Who Loved Me. Steven Spielberg has said on numerous occasions that he would have liked to do a James Bond film.
• The march played by the Nazis in Berlin is the "Königgrätzer Marsch" by Johann Gottfried Piefke. It was known as Hitler's favorite march and was often played during his public appearances.
• The unnamed fedora-wearing man in the beginning of the film was originally written as Abner Ravenwood, Indy's mentor and the father of Karen Allen's character in Raiders of the Lost Ark. The references were cut from the final film but the character is prominently shown in close-ups.
• The scene where Henry Jones Sr. accidentally shoots off the tail of his own plane came from the script for Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Short Round accidentally blew the tail-rudder off their plane in a dog-fight over India, which was the original reason the plane crashed. David Pro 20:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

From WP:AVTRIVIA- "This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all." 198.6.46.11 (talk) 17:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Grail Material

The main article refers to the movie's real grail as being made of wood. Perhaps this is because Indy says "This is the cup of a carpenter." Having re-watched the movie yesterday, I must say the cup appears to be a red-brown ceramic rather than carved wood: there is no visible wood grain, for example. I believe the quote was meant to indicate that the cup is suitably humble for a working-class Galilean of that period. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.61.184.12 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 09:27, May 24, 2007 (CDT).

You're right. It's not wood. It's fixed. ColdFusion650 16:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Mereg: Cross of Coronado

I redirected this article to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade inline with guidelines on fiction articles. The item is not notable in itself i.e. it is only notable within the context of the movie, and should therefore not have its own article. The redirect was reverted, so please raise any objections to the merge here. Thanks - Alex valavanis 17:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

How significantly is it mentioned in GUN? That's about the only reason I can see for it to be its own article. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

• Leave it be, and link it better. --evrik ^(talk) 18:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I would say that redirecting it at this time would be premature. The information in that article is not here. I would not be against a proper merge, where the information in that article is integrated into this one. ColdFusion650 19:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge complete. ColdFusion650 20:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Possible Original Research?

Do we really know that it was definitely the Grail Knight who hid the true grail amongst many false cups (as is written in the article)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.74.3.212 (talk • contribs) 09:26, June 23, 2007 (CDT).

In short, yes. ColdFusion650 14:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

What the Discussion page is for

It is not for lame jokes, your critique or opinions of the article (unless those opinions relate directly in how to improve the article), listing trivia that isn't in the article in the first place, because they're mostly rumours and fan fiction. You want a place for that, you go find a Forum, thats what they are there for. This is here to talk about how to make the article better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 19:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Just ignore those old posts. Alientraveller (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Or better yet, remove them per Wiki guidelines. RoyBatty42 (talk) 02:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Age of young Indiana

According to the article the young Indiana is only 13 years of age. I thought that was strange, as my guess wold have been about 17. I checked out the page about the actor, River Phoenix, which says that he was born in 1970, thus he was actually 19 the year the film was released. --Oddeivind (talk) 09:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the series, he was born in 1899, and the scene takes place in 1912. It may be considered OR, but my math says 13. ColdFusion650 (talk) 21:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's best to just drop the age from the article, since the age isn't given in the film itself. For the record though, the film's novelization gives his age as 13 (this was later firmly established in The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles. The Wookieepedian (talk) 22:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Also in the book "The Lost Gold of Durango" (Spring 1913) he has 13 years old and the way Indy talked it seams Coronado's adventure was the last adventure before the Durango's. So, with this information, we can even assume (without any problem) that Coronado's adventure shown in "Last Crusade" took place somewhere after 1 July, 1912... (and obvisously before 31 December of the same year) -> Indy had in fact 13 years) 84.90.24.156 (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Category deletion

Contributors to this article may be interested in this category deletion discussion: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_May_31#Category:Indiana_Jones_films. Miami33139 (talk) 15:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Proper reference to film sequencing and number

Why do you immediately revert any reference to the films being a tetralogy? They indeed are, and an understanding of that cinematic scope and their particular sequence within it is important. As how "other films" reference it, there's little rhyme or reason on WP. 2 out of the 3 LOTR films make reference to the "trilogy," while Star Wars prefers "saga" in five of the six articles (while referring to "two trilogies" in the the remaining article). It's more unusual (on Wikipedia) than anything else to refer to the Indiana Jones films as being part of a "franchise," a label that helpfully includes video games, et al, but is far different than film sequences with `comparable categories (e.g., LOTR, Star Wars, Godfather, each of which have other commercial entities attached). Your reasoning? --Vaudedoc (talk) 18:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The official line is that there are 26 movies. What would you call that? A twentysextology? ColdFusion650 (talk) 18:08, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Running time

Most sources appear to say 2 hrs. and 7 min or 127 min. Where are we getting the 126 from? --Vaudedoc (talk) 18:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair Use image and critical commentary

I have restored the deleted Image:Indiana Jones and the Cross of Coronado.jpg. This was thoroughly discussed at IFD and DRV, and the consensus in both discussions was to Keep this image here as Fair Use. However, I agree that critical commentary is more appropriate in the "Release and reception" section, instead of "Plot" so I've placed it there. JGHowes ^talk - 18:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Critical commentary doesn't belong in plot section, which is to provide context for the rest of the article. Likewise, the image is redundant with the Indiana Jones article. Alientraveller (talk) 18:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the image is entirely appropriate for the scouting in popular culture article, but what it illustrates has no true grounding in the article. Ebert does not discuss a publicity photo of Phoenix holding the cross. Alientraveller (talk) 18:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This has been hashed out in discussions you didn't participate in. Please stop removing the image, and the removing the FUR based on the fact that the image isn't in the article, when you are the one who removed it from the article. S. Dean Jameson 18:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

So what if I was not involved in discussion? And who are you to go "Stop"? The article is not going to be deleted. It's not truly necessary. Alientraveller (talk) 18:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Your opinion here is clearly in the minority. I wouldn't go removing the image from here unless that changes. --UsaSatsui (talk) 18:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The image was being deleted and had nothing to do with its inclusion in this article. Alientraveller (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Usa here. You really need to stop unilaterally removing it, based solely on your own view of the matter. When people who have debated with each other (Usa and I) agree on that, perhaps it's you who should "stop." S. Dean Jameson 18:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• I never had a problem with inclusion here. This fair use stuff is confusing...this is why I never bothered with images before. --UsaSatsui (talk) 19:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Whatever. You people just don't care at all for my point. Consensus changes when people have new valid points. Anyway, I won't violate WP:3RR because you don't listen and are scared the image will be up for deletion again, when it won't. Alientraveller (talk) 18:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• Who's worried about deletion? I don't think that's an issue anymore. --UsaSatsui (talk) 19:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
• Don't remove valid references, as you did to the caption in the IJatLC article. And please refrain from making accusations as to the motives of other editors. If you'd been involved in the previous debate, you would understand Usa and I come from different viewpoints regarding this image. S. Dean Jameson 19:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Happy? Alientraveller (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's time for the definitive opinion, which is as follows: The deletion discussion was about removing the picture from Wikipedia. The decision was to keep it. That means that it belongs somewhere on Wikipedia. Alientraveller and I do not disagree. It belongs somewhere. It just doesn't belong here, especially with that overly long description. I also think the "it's just you" argument is a little played out. It's not just Alientraveller that feels the image should be removed from the article. He's just the only one without a load of paperwork to keep him busy. Like the philosophers Big and Rich said, "I know there's got to be a few hundred million more like me." Just because no one else has chimed in yet, doesn't mean they don't agree. The image should be removed from the article. ColdFusion650 (talk) 19:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• It illustrates an important plot point, and the reference to Ebert's review was added per discussion, and concerns raised that it actually wasn't an important plot point. S. Dean Jameson 19:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
  • It's Ebert's opinion, it if it belongs anywhere, it's there. Read WP:MOSFILM before you add information in the wrong place. Alientraveller (talk) 19:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that it is an important plot point, you don't need the picture to understand it. ColdFusion650 (talk) 19:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• • • I'm out. Clearly Alien is willing to edit war to enforce his view of the matter, no matter what position he is taking. I'm not. Good luck to all. S. Dean Jameson 19:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Consensus can change. We reached a compromise, and you're still arguing. Alientraveller (talk) 19:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Who is saying that this particular plot point is important? What is to stop us from declaring other plot points as important and filling the Plot section with similar non-free images? The argument for inclusion is completely subjective. Considering that the requirement for including screenshots is critical commentary and discussion of the film, it is false to say that our judgment calls meet that criteria. The Plot section, per WP:PSTS, is a descriptive claim of the primary source, which is the film itself. Thus, non-free images cannot support mere descriptive claims. In addition, Ebert's review says nothing specifically about the image itself. He mentions a moment in the film which is easily established with descriptive text. The image, or an element within it that is not replaceable, need to be supported by specific critical commentary coming from reliable, third-party, published sources. See Fight Club (film) as a personal examples of how such screenshots are utilized outside the Plot section. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, jeez... I support its location now. :) I was not aware of the related passage from Ebert's review; it didn't make sense what "life's mission" had to do with the screenshot. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This "Cross" image and this article part of IFD/DRV discussion and it can be used here. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That discussion was on something completely different, but that's been stated already, so you already knew that. ColdFusion650 (talk) 02:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

New WikiProject Open!

I have finally created a WikiProject for Indiana Jones! Check it out. -- MISTER ALCOHOL ^{T C} 20:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)