Talk:Homosexuality in ancient Egypt

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This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ancient Egypt to-do list:

Needed articles.

We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

Cleanup.

To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

Standardize the Chronology.

A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)

Stub sorting

Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Wikipedia, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

Data sorting.

This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Wikipedia than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

Text and/or other creative content from Homosexuality in ancient Egypt was copied or moved into LGBT history with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Merge[edit]

I don't think merging would be a good idea. Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep's alleged homosexuality isn't the only LGBT-related thing in ancient Egypt, there was the story of Horus and Seth, and the one about Pharaoh Neferkare and a general. – Alensha ^talk 01:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Horus and Seth[edit]

I think that a mention of the contending of Horus and Seth would be good. The story tells of a sexual encounter between the two gods.

There is also a story about a Pharoah Neferkare and his General Sasenet who have a romantic affair. These are both stories that appear in literature not as historical record though.

But I think that they are still relevant to the article. --82.35.114.51 (talk) 23:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but who wrote this section? " Seth invites Horus to a party and convinces the teenage Horus to drink more than Horus could normally cope with. When Horus is drunk, Seth seduces him to sleep over the night in one bed together. When lying together in one bed, Seth grabs Horus and rapes him." Someone still at school and trying to sound grown up maybe?

Too much street talk, it needs to be edited.

Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep's Relationship[edit]

They're identical twins, or at least, that is what they are notable for. Evidence:

"Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep, of the Fifth Dynasty, shared an impressive tomb at Saqqara. On its' walls they are represented holding hands and even embracing - which is generally only seen in couples - expressing their close relationship. Niankhkhnum as the eldest twin is accorded a slight superiority in his position in the scenes. They occupied the same post, that of the manicurist to the king, which means that they belongeg to the inner court circles. Moreover, they were administrators of the royal properties, which explains that wealth of their burial" from 'growing up and getting old in ancient egypt' by Rosalind M. and Jac. J. Janseen, London 2007. Page 10.

To say that the representation of them in the tomb is definitive proof of their homosexuality seems unfounded.Heilingetorix (talk) 13:29, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is not evidence, but rather, one of a number of scholars too shocked by the idea of same-sex relations: a secondary account.

But it has been argued, and i think shown not to be plausible by other (and later) scholars. In addition, if one is noticeably older than the other they aren't identical twins :) (but might be half-brothers from different mothers). Barefootliam (talk) 01:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So I added some stuff[edit]

I took away the stuff about N&K being the FIRST homosexual couple in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD because that seems like a relatively strong conclusion to draw on small evidence, and combined with the picture it makes the article seem very centered on this one relationship. I also changed the header so it says 'Historical Examples' or something similar. I revised and expanded the Seth and Horus anecdote - it was confusing, and also, it is a satire, not mainstream cosmology like it said.

Images: I have a picture of a ramesside ostraca of two guys having sex, which I thought might be good for this. I photographed it out of Wit & Humor in Ancient Egypt. I don't know if it suits the copyright policy, but it seems relevant, can anyone advise me on this matter?Heilingetorix (talk) 17:57, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you we know for sure they were identical twins? Not saying they aren't, I was wondering if their is consensus on that? 206.53.234.10 (talk) 22:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Sexually orientated"[edit]

There's a particular passage in this article that uses this phrase, and I cannot parse it due to lack of background knowledge. This passage could mean that surviving Egyptian documents use euphemisms to discuss any mention of sex, or, alternatively, that there are Egyptian documents that use direct language to describe sex, none of which discuss men having sex with men. It's also just a nasty bit of writing that I'd really like to replace with something better, which I cannot do until I understand it. --Blah2 (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't homosexuality banned according to The Laws of The Egyptian Goddess Ma'at?[edit]

In number 11 of The 42 Negative Confessions (from The Papyrus of Ani), it is written: "I have not committed adultery, I have not lain with men."

The papyrus was said to be written sometime during 1250 BCE. Smilelaughenjoy (talk) 03:09, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Although that text appeared in the 1901 translation, i think we have to remember it's part of a speech by Nu, and is not a general prohibition - and also that it doesn't seem to appear in all surviving papyri. Given the context, though, it could presumably mean, "I have not had sex with someone who was married, neither a man nor a woman". There's also the fact that the papyrus is a thousand years newer than the tomb of the two men.... and has no more bearing than a modern law could be interpreted as normative in Anglo-Saxon times. By the time we get to 1200 BCE, Egyptian attitudes had changed from the Set/Horus story and widespread acceptance to the idea that it was humiliating to be the recipient of anal intercourse, through to phrases that were insults around homosexuality. It's been suggested that this came about because the Egyptians had contact with a wider range of other cultures, but i blame Moses :) Barefootliam (talk) 01:41, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Needs major editing[edit]

This entire article is awash with errors of grammar, punctuation, and syntax. It reads like a high-schooler's book report. It needs a total overhaul by a competent writer. DesertSkies120 (talk) 04:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]