Talk:Holland/Archive 1

Pars pro toto—All of the UK as England??

As someone who has lived on both sides of the Atlantic, I have never heard of either Scotland or Wales (or even Northern Ireland) referred to as "England" at any time, but if any pars pro toto term is in common usage, it would be Britain.

71.181.160.213 (talk) 18:21, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Then your experience is highly anomalous. In any case, "Britain", not being a pars, can of course not be a pars pro toto.--MWAK (talk) 07:04, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

It's not that people would call Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland 'England', it's more that when talking about the UK as a whole some people will use United Kingdom, Great Britain and England interchangeably as if all 3 mean the same thing. 82.68.159.246 (talk) 15:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

While it certainly used to be the case, it really isn't true any more. Since devolution in Scotland and Wales (Northern Ireland is sui generis) I haven't heard the misuse of England for the UK within England for many years, and it is noticeable that the sources date from 1946 and 1999. It is, of course, very common outside the UK, and I'd propose changing the entry to reflect that, but it is difficult to find a source other than discussion forums to back it up.Matruman (talk) 23:00, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Holland or Netherlands (Note: messed up section)

It should be noted, at least, that people from the South strongly object to the use of "Holland" as a synonym for the Netherlands. Hollanders they are not! No more then Welshmen are Englishmen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.171.167.226 (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

In response to the gentleman from Utrecht: Holland is most definitely used by the dutch themselves, but it usually has a patriotic, nostalgic or affectionate sense. At international soccer matches for example, people cheer 'Holland!' instead of 'Netherlands!'. In most everyday use though, Nederland is the way the Netherlands is referred to.

Dutch people call their land Nederland in their own language, never Holland (only in some songs cause it sounds better). Holland are the 2 provincies Noord- Holland en Zuid- Holland together.

But in English they call it mostly holland, because everybody understands that, in every country in the world Holland, is Holland. But the official name is the Netherlands, or Netherland, but that sometimes causes confusion. In France for example the Netherland is Les Pays- Bas. So it's just easier to say Holland in stead of the Netherlands, but officially it's not the same. (I'm from Amsterdam btw, so I can't speak for fresien people or something like that, they might find the term Holland insulting) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.171.153.143 (talk) 11:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

-Many, many Dutch people find it difficult to pronounce "The Netherlands" when speaking English. Instead they go with "Holland", which they know doesn't strictly mean the same thing, but to most foreigners this won't matter anyway...

I'm from Holland as well, and I'm 100% sure that there isn't a difference between Holland and the Netherlands.. it's really the same country. So why are there 2 different articles? owell... nevermind..

-Holland is the two provinces North and South Holland, the Netherlands are all of the provinces together.

I'm from The Netherlands (Utrecht), and I'll make it clear to you. Between Dutch people, the word "Holland" is never used to refer to our country, people will always call it "Nederland". Strangely enough, we still use many words derived from Holland, which apply to all the provinces. Like Dutch cheese is translated as 'Hollandse kaas'. Nobody ever says 'Nederlandse kaas'. Holland is also often used in conjuction with our national soccer team. Probaly because it's shorter than Nederland and easier to use in songs.

To people from other countries, we often use Holland to refer to our country. The reason is simple: When you say you're from Holland (even when pronounced in Dutch), everybody immediately knows which country that is, since the word Holland is often the same or almost the same in other languages (Olanda, La Hollande etc.) In other languages, "The Netherlands" are often literally translated (like Les Pays Bas in French), so these are much less recognizible for Dutchmen.

In addition, the word "Hollanders" is used in the Northern, Eastern and Southern parts of The Netherlands to refer to people from the Western and center parts of The Netherlands. Quink.

203.0.180.2, the text you keep adding is incorrect. The Netherlands is no longer used for Belgium, an no Belgian is offended by the Netherlands referring to that country, as no Belgian considers himself as such. Also, common usage doesn't make things correct. We often say England or Great Britain when we mean the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), or America when we mean the United States (of America). Jeronimo

It is not the job of an encyclopedia to tell people what to use. As a Limburger I may be insulted by the Netherlands being called Holland, but that does not change the fact that a significant amount of English speakers refer to the Netherlands as Holland.--user:Branko

When I lived in The Netherlands I met lots of Dutch people who explained it's common for them to refer to their country as Holland, although I think this only applies when they're speaking in English. In "Nederlands", as far as I remember, they never refer to their country as Holland. It annoyed the hell out of me that they'd use the same logic for Scotland and England. We Scots DO mind! :) - dduck Dduck 13:06, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've edited the text further regarding the Holland/Netherlands issue, see Talk:Netherlands. Also amended the etymology and removed Holland Tunnel which I believe is named after its engineer/builder, not this Holland. Scipius 21:28 Sep 20, 2002 (UTC)

From my own education the etymological link to holt land is incorrect, for a number of reasons too: 1) holt is a scandinavian root, while hol is a native root, 2) the evolution of Dutch in language would not have dropped a t that easily, 3) that region of the netherlands is, and has always been, a very low-density area for woods, so the naming would be totally illogical as well.

1. This can't be proven - and then there were plenty of Vikings and Saxons around at the time.
2. In fact it's very common in Hollandic to drop the t's (never forget the standard language is largely Brabantian)- besides the region might well have been Frisian.
3. Perhaps the name originally referred to the wooded transitional area between the dunes and the peat lands as the latter probably were almost uninhabited. And then bushes are "wood" too.--MWAK 11:51, 25 May 2005 (UTC)