Talk:History of the fur trade in the Sea of Okhotsk

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Deleted text[edit]

  • The article correctly states that there is no such such special region and then proceeds with 99.5% unreferenced text. A handful or references are about some trivia: somebody travelled there, Magadan in in this coast, etc. There is nothing salvageable that does not belong to "Sea of Okhotsk" page.

That said, per wikipedia referncing rule, please do not restore the unreferenced text, see WP:BURDEN. Also, please do not revert without reading edit summaries. As a seasoned Wikipedian, you should know this already. - Altenmann >talk 03:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am not convinced. 1. The article states that it was never a political unit but goes on to show that it was a special region with a clear history. The coast was the far end of Russian expansion across Siberia and the starting point for their expansion to Alaska. 2. The Sea article is about a geographic place. The Coast article is about a historical region on the coast of that sea. Such things are best handled as separate linked articles. 3. Deletion would remove useful information. Knowledge of the Okhotsk coast is needed to understand the origin of Russian Alaska. 4. As for footnotes, there is only one source. As far as I know, everything can be found through the book’s index. A person checking an article against a book must have the book, and if the book is properly indexed there is no need for a footnote in Wikipedia. 5. Thank you for your mention of the Sakhalin book. I just bought it.Benjamin Trovato (talk) 11:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It does not matter whether you are convinced or not. Unreferenced text is removed. Period. re: 1. Yes it was. Every sea has its coast. So what? re 2. Yes, if there is enough info so tart main article is not cluttered. 3. Yes. If the information is verifiable from source cited. You are welcome to rewrite the article having sources in hand.

Not to say about being unreferenced, the article defines its scope sloppily: "The Okhotsk Coast is an informal name for the northwest coast of the Sea of Okhotsk." But even cursory google search finds "Okhotsk coast of Hokkaido". Not to say about coasts of Sakhalin (unmentioned) and Kamchatka (mentioned, but not fit the definition). I think I will write a correct "skeleton" of a properly structured article, Sea of Okhotsk Coast, starting from the sources. - Altenmann >talk 17:52, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1. Rewrite: Ok. If you think can make a better summary of Gibson, or find a better source, good luck. 2. Is it possible that you were misled by the title? The article was certainly not about the ‘Sea of Okhotsk coast”. That would belong in the Sea of Okhotsk article and would probably not be very useful. The article was about the Russian presence along the Okhotsk coast centered around the town of Okhotsk. I replaced Gibson’s ‘Okhotsk seaboard’ with ‘Okhotsk coast’ because it sounded better. Here Siberian Cossacks had to abandon their river boats and learn how to build and sail ocean-going ships. This delayed them for about 100 years. Once Behring and others got this done, they were able to move on to Alaska. 3. If my guess about misunderstanding is correct, I suggest the article be restored. It describes an important part of the history of Siberia and Alaska. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 14:52, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I understand your explanation about miscommunication. As I explained in my previous reply, there is "Okhotsk coast" even in Japan. Meaning this title is confusing. In terms of rewriting, I am planning to write a completely new article Sea of Okhotsk Coast, because I have found really good geographical and geological sources on the subject. And the current article must be renamed into something like History of fur trade by Sea of Okhotsk, per book title: "Feeding the Russian Fur Trade: Provisionment of the Okhotsk Seaboard and the Kamchatka Peninsula" on which the article is 97% based. - Altenmann >talk 23:52, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • O.K. I've done a preliminary draft; much more to come. By the way, this resolved erroneous and confusing wikilinks via "Okhotsk Coast". - Altenmann >talk 01:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 09:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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