Talk:History of the Jews and the Crusades

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Military history: Historiography / Medieval / Crusades

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Untitled[edit]

No Crusader was excommunicated. They congratulated for their services and efforts of killing Jews during the Crusades. 15:57, 29 May 2006 User:Iliketoedit

... says Iliketoedit. However, historical truth is quite different. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 16:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ. Check www.encarta.com search: Jews and the Crusades User:Iliketoedit

Exactly what I said: You think differently. However, historical truth is quite different nonetheless. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Encarta begs to differ too. Did you go to encarta.com, a real encyclopedia and check their historical facts. If you went their jackass you would know I'm not wrong. But no, you're too simple minded and didn't go to encarta.com which has better historical facts than you, simple-minded bastard.-----iliketoedit (smile back ass-wipe)

I have not checked, you may even be right (or some version); but your incivility makes this a different problem. If it happens again, it is grounds for a temporary block. See Wikipedia:Civility for Wikipedia policy. -- Stbalbach 03:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a mess[edit]

This article has no direction and makes no real points. The last line, "All of these and more provide differing opinions on the results of the Crusades, but all agree that the Crusades caused a separation to occur between the two religions" is a really poor way to end this article. The Crusades did not cause a separation between Judaism and Christianity. And, what type of separation are we talking about? The religious separation happened in the 1st century. The separation between Jews and non-Jews happened during the numerous bloody revolts that Jews initiated during Roman rule. The persecution of Jews against the early Christians certainly caused a separation. The Jews of that region helped just about every invader that pushed into the Middle East. This includes the Persians and Islam. These pre-date the Crusades by centuries. The only short term effects of the Crusades were that Jews, as combatants and non-combatants died, as did Christians and Muslims. By the end the Crusades, the Ottoman Turks firmly established their rule and Jews and Christians lived side by side under Islamic control.

Again, this article needs a better conclusion that is more accurate and actually makes a point. Jtpaladin 17:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If there is anything in this article you feel is wrong or poor please delete it, or if you'd rather not, tag it with {fact} tags and give some rationales like you did above, and wait a few weeks, and if not fixed, I'll delete it myself. Or add {cleanup} or {pov} tags if you think they are needed, This article was (mostly) created by a one-off anon user(s), there is no one really maintaining it. -- Stbalbach 00:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stbalbach, thank you very much for the support. Well said. There wasn't one specific thing that I could put my finger on to make this article better. I really am not sure that this topic deserves its' own article and can simply be incorporated in the general article of the Crusades. It's like creating a special article for what happened to the Greeks in Byzantine lands after the Crusades. Did tragic things happen? Sure, but does it deserve its' own section? I don't think so. Jtpaladin 14:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I would not put this (back) into the Crusades article, it was moved out of there because it is too detailed and specific for that high-level article which is already too long. Probably a better place for it is one of the many Wikipedia articles on Jewish history (of which this is one).. but Jewish history of the Crusades certainly can have its own article, its a big topic. -- Stbalbach 15:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it is a mess. I am currently expanding the info about the Jews of the First Crusade. I am not too knowledgeable on the Jewish pogroms in other Crusades. I'll let others deal with that. --Ghostexorcist 22:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article has evidently been a mess for a decade. Antihistoriaster (talk) 20:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Narrative of the Old Persecutions[edit]

There's a lot of debate about whether this was actually a 1300s article. Some sources, including Chazan who is extensively cited here, give it as having been written soon after the actual attacks in Mainz. He actually considers it to be the best of the three early sources on the Rhenish pogroms. In general, though, is a list of chronicles really the best structure for this section? 66.65.176.108 Aesshen (talk) 18:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought all the Jews were exiled 1000 years earlier?[edit]

iYet they were still living in the Holy Land? 184.96.241.210 (talk) 19:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Jews were exiled from Jerusalem in most of Judea following the Bar Kochba revolt. However, Jews began trickling back to Jerusalem during the reigns of Marcus Aurelius and Commodus (called Antoninus in the Talmud) who were friendly to the Jews. There were a few massacres in the Byzantine period but Jewish life continued. Jewish life in Judea and the Galilee improved greatly following the Moslem conquest and there were Jewish communities in many places of historic Israel as well as the Golan Heights. The First Crusade put an end to Jewish life in Jerusalem and Judea with the 1099 massacre. Following the Moslem Reconquista of Judea Jews slowly began to rebuild their communities in Jerusalem and Hebron together with the Galilean communities of Safed and Tiberius as well as others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.113.174.103 (talk) 12:24, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to have an estimate of Jewish deaths[edit]

I'm trying to estimate how many Jews were killed by the Christians during the crusades. It would be nice to have an estimate of Jewish deaths at the hands of the Christians during the crusades. I suspect there are [broadly] two categories. First are the deaths due to the army of crusaders. Second are deaths due to the non-military population turning against the Jews.

Jeffrey Walton (talk) 01:39, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reworking Whole Page - Ideas[edit]

It appears that this article has been a mess for a long time, but it has way more depth and historical scholarship than is presented here. If the general writing and set-up were changed, it would provide a more encyclopedic overview of sufficient caliber. I'd like to suggest the following changes:

1) Background should focus on antisemitism before AD 1095 and the beginning of the First Crusade. So a sentence on the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans (thus establishing the end of a Jewish controlled state), another sentence on continued revolts against Romans and their actions to ban Jews from settling Cyprus and Jerusalem (at this point, I'm debating whether to include Christianity's separation following the Bar Kochba revolt), a sentence on ideas of deicide from early Christian theologians, and then a summation of any other major actions until 1095, not inclusive.

2) The First Crusade is all over the place. I think a better organization would be to have a main heading of "Antisemitism During the First Crusade" and then "Jews in Europe" and "Jews in the Middle East" as subheadings, chronologically go through those relevant events. On that note, the uncited point about Haifa seems odd to me when we know that the main crusader army was at Jerusalem from June - July 1099, so who they're defending Haifa from is beyond me. We can then follow up with a new main heading, "Protection Attempts during the First Crusade", followed by our same subheadings and the relevant events.

3) We can add information about other actions, both caused by Antisemitism and those as Protection Attempts, from other crusades beyond the first (the page already makes a half-hearted mention of Philip II of France randomly in the background information now, but that can be expanded upon and then can include the successful attempts of Frederick I in the Third Crusade).

4) "Jewish Crusade Literature" stops being about "Jewish Crusade Literature" halfway down, and the whole section should probably be titled, "Jews Referenced in Primary Sources". This would be a good place for lots of cross-wikipedia linking between this and other topics to help anchor the study a little more.

I'm going to gather some of my sources together and start writing up what changes I can, but it'll take a few days, so any thoughts on the organization or other things to include/delete would be welcome. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the topic, it was just something that came up in a few primary sources I was reading recently and realized the wikipedia page was woefully insufficient. JacobAronson (talk) 00:47, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@JacobAronson:, I see that your activity at Wikipedia has slowed, and I may have just missed you. But if you're around, I think your ideas would be a big improvement. In addition, the sourcing is in terrible state, and there needs to be a lot of new sources and citations added to the article. If you see this and are still interested, by all means go ahead; and if you can {{reply}} or {{ping}} me here, I'll try to help. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]