Talk:History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Requested move 14 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. While both the "support" and "oppose" sides provided strong arguments, neither provided a strong enough argument to sway consensus in their favor. In addition, the support side was highly disorganized as to where the article should be moved. In the end, there's no consensus to be found here. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

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History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel → History of the Jews in Israel–Palestine – This page should move to a concise, precise and consistent title in accordance with all of its sister titles viewable at Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar (under the population tab), all of which follow a "History of the Jews in [insert modern geography]" format. The current page title is inconsistent on two counts: in its ostensible presentation of a double topic, i.e. "Jews and Judaism"; and in the use of the "Land of Israel" as a geographical descriptor. The first, the dual scope, is actually a misportrayal of the contents of the page, which is overwhelmingly about Jews and the history of communities, not Judaism, which receives barely a mention on the page after the 7th century. As for "Land of Israel", this is presumably being used to avoid the choice between Israel/Palestine, but it is a failure of precision given that "Land of Israel" is religious, not geographical terminology, and as a descriptor of space is hopelessly vague and imprecise (in the Biblical definitions including not just Israel-Palestine, but parts of Lebanon and Syria, which have separate pages (see links)). In contrast to this, it is hard to think of any particular reason to avoid the hyphenated Israel-Palestine, which works just fine, has inbuilt neutrality and unambiguously encompasses the actual geography in question. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:48, 14 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: The main geographic article is Land of Israel, which covers either part or all of the historical region of Canaan. I would suggest against hyphenating the terms israel and Palestine. Either use the format History of the Jews in Israel and Palestine (to include the region of Palestine) or History of the Jews in the Southern Levant (to include all of the Southern Levant). The current geographic definition for the Southern Levant includes the entire states of Israel, the State of Palestine, and Jordan, along with southern Lebanon, southern Syria and the Sinai Peninsula. Dimadick (talk) 12:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Dimadick: FYI, History of the Jews in Jordan, History of the Jews in Lebanon and History of the Jews in Lebanon all already exist, so southern Levant would broaden the scope to overlap with several other articles that do not obviously overlap with it significantly at present. I don't really have an opinion or preference regarding "Israel–Palestine" versus "Israel and Palestine" - I was just thinking along the lines of the "Israel–Palestine conflict", and I guess it's more concise, but it doesn't make a lot of difference either way, so I would definitely also support that. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. We should avoid "Israel–Palestine". I could consider the alternatives mooted by Dimadick (which are not unreasonable), but I'm not sure I see the problem with the current title. I disagree that "Land of Israel" is religious, not geographical terminology. It is both religious and geographical, like Holy Land. And like the latter, it is appropriate in many contexts. The argument for dropping "and Judaism", however, is persuasive. An argument against "Israel and Palestine" is that, like either term on its own, it too strongly suggests the modern countries when in fact the geographical remit of the article is an area that has been called both Israel and Palestine in different languages and contexts for centuries. Srnec (talk) 03:01, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Srnec: It's not a clear piece of geographical terminology then, but one rather vaguely defined by religious texts. You won't get an academic work using it to define a discrete geography, because it is a naturally nebulous phrase. It is also a term that specifically omits the name Palestine while speaking to the modern geography that is made up of both Israel and Palestine, which raises neutrality issues. If it were to be kept religious and neutral then there is, yes, the term "Holy land", but the purpose of this RM was in part to standardise this article in line with its peers, which by and large use: "History of X in [modern geography Y]". For an example of an article that does it better, see Biodiversity in Israel and Palestine - a title that bridges the two because they are functionally, in terms of natural habitats, one biome. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:36, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The designation "Land of Israel" is not solely a religious term, but also a historical and cultural term used by Jews to denote a substantial portion of the southern Levant since antiquity, across both Hebrew and later Jewish languages. This term remains prevalent among contemporary Jews, encompassing observant and non-observant Jews alike. Its application in this article's title is entirely appropriate and aligns with the terminology featured in many WP:RS that address Jewish history in the region, including The Cambridge History of Judaism, Handbook of Oriental Studies, and numerous others as evident through a quick search on platforms like Google Scholar. The term "Southern Levant" is a bit too wide, encompassing regions that do not align with any definition of the Land of Israel (such as the Sinai Peninsula, parts of the Negev, most of Lebanon and Jordan, etc.), and the term "Israel-Palestine" should be avoided due to potential political connotations and controversies associated with it; but I'll refrain from elaborating further to avoid violating my tban. Tombah (talk) 09:31, 17 August 2023 (UTC) This commentary clearly breaches the authors IsPal tban and should be discounted.Selfstudier (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  ' a historical and cultural term used by Jews. That right there is an admission that this should not be used in the title of an article in the English language Wikipedia. This is not an an encyclopedia written based on Jewish usage, it is based on what is commonly used in English amongst English speakers. And that is not Land of Israel, nor has it ever been. nableezy - 15:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  I disagree, this article is specifically about Jewish history, which he is not banned from. Drsmoo (talk) 04:46, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  History up until present-day Israel and Palestine, hence the notice. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to History of the Jews in Israel and Palestine as per Politics of archaeology in Israel and Palestine, List of archaeological sites in Israel and Palestine, Arameans in Israel and Palestine. etc. No reason to prefer a biblical term when we have modern terminology to hand, the argument that LoI is used by Jews is not relevant since the majority readership of this wiki is not Jewish.Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to History of the Jews in Israel and Palestine per arguments of nom and Selfstudier. The status quo is a pointless deviation from standard practise in similar articles and this change remedies that. There was a previous argument that the inclusion of Judaism in the title was a special case here because Judaism's history and the religion itself have a lot do with the Land of Israel. But Judaism arguably originated in modern-day Egypt, and flourished afterwards in places like Iran, Iraq, Spain, France, Germany, Poland and Russia, so I remain unconvinced regarding this point. Havradim leaf a message 10:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

  Can you provide a scholarly analysis that presents an argument that Judaism originated in Egypt? Drsmoo (talk) 04:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Since I am not the one who is advocating for the inclusion of Judaism to History of the Jews article titles, fortunately then I don't have to. This article is the exception, rather than the rule of doing this, so if you are advocating for it, you would be the one who needs to bring the scholarly proof. Havradim leaf a message 14:39, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to History of the Jews in Israel and Palestine per nom and Selfstudier. Land of Israel might be a valid topic for a geo page for its ubiquity in Jewish and in Christian scriptures, but the history here is of Jews in the area of what is now Israel and Palestine according to parallel pages. Ogress 10:25, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose (see new vote below) as proposed. An article about 3000 years of history should not emphasize the 1948 partition in the title, and the historical regions are not always bounded by the current borders. I would support some version of "in the Southern Levant". Walt Yoder (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  should not emphasize the 1948 partition in the title Since there was no partition, this objection is invalid. Selfstudier (talk) 16:25, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  What do you call United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine then? Walt Yoder (talk) 17:01, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  An unimplemented plan. Of 1947. Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  Let me spell this out more clearly then, as you appear to not be understanding my argument. Prior to c.1948, "Israel" and "Palestine" were both used to refer to the entire region. Since then, they refer to specific parts of the region. A phrasing that suggests this division existed for the 3000 years of history discussed in the article would be misleading and anachronistic. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:07, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  It was also not referred to as the Southern Levant (never mind the Land of Israel, Kingdom of Israel or anything else Israel until 1948) for 3000 years and yet that is your proposal. Perhaps a study of the history would better inform your commentary. Selfstudier (talk) 17:16, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  This very article refers to the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) of 2500 years ago. Then there was the Roman province of Judaea, and Syria Palaestina, and ... I need not continue; the article is one click away.
  Perhaps a different example would clarify things. An article title should not be History of the Moors in Spain and Portugal, as those current political divisions did not exist during the Moorish time. A neutral geographic term such as History of the Moors in Iberia would be what I prefer. Likewise here. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:53, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  The bothsidesism Israel and Palestine does that admirably with no need for further invention. Selfstudier (talk) 17:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  It was also not referred to as the Southern Levant (never mind the Land of Israel, Kingdom of Israel or anything else Israel until 1948)

  It has been continuously referred to as the Land of Israel in Jewish, Christian, and Samaritan writings for thousands of years (before 1948). Drsmoo (talk) 04:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Hence it's 'religious', not scholarly terminology. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:30, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  And as Palestine by pretty much everybody including scholars and Jews since antiquity. The most recent 2000 years to 1948 had nothing to do with Israel and before that it was Judea not Israel. Selfstudier (talk) 10:48, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support "Land of Israel" is a fuzzy, religiously-affiliated (NPOV) term used to describe the southern Levant. It is simply unscientific. I would also support changing this to Palestine solely. It would be better to break the articles to have a specific category for those in modern day Israel and Palestine so there isn't an overlap. JJNito197 (talk) 18:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Walt Yoder. The Land of Israel is the standard name for the region in Jewish culture and has been for thousands of years. It is both common and normative amongst Jews. If there is a desire to use a standard nomenclature across multiple articles, then “Southern Levant”, should be used broadly on Wikipedia as a neutral term, as is the case in academia. Israel-Palestine is ill-defined with little usage anywhere. Drsmoo (talk) 04:31, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  This isn't an encyclopedia of Jewish culture; it's an encyclopedia of human understanding that expressly eschews particular points of view. Southern Levant is also a fuzzy, ill-defined geography. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Southern Levant is the geographical region. Depending on the time period/details, Judea, Israel, Palestine would be used. Drsmoo (talk) 12:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:PRECISE; the proposed title doesn't unambiguously define the topical scope of the article as the article appears to cover areas outside of the current borders of Israel and Palestine, including parts of Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. Would support "Southern Levant". BilledMammal (talk) 13:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  the article appears to cover? Southern Levant -> "The Southern Levant is a geographical region encompassing the southern half of the Levant. It corresponds approximately to modern-day Israel, Palestine, and Jordan; some definitions also include southern Lebanon, southern Syria and/or the Sinai Peninsula." and no more precise than Land of Israel. Israel and Palestine everyone gets. Selfstudier (talk) 13:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  the article appears to cover? The scope of the article isn't neatly confined to modern borders. It includes historical entities like the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and the Hasmonean kingdom. The former is now part of Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria, and the latter is now part of Israel, Palestine, Jordan, and Syria.

  "Southern Levant" is an acceptable title because it can include all these areas; "Israel and Palestine" is not because it does not. BilledMammal (talk) 13:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  That assumes LoI = Southern Levant and there is no evidence for that. LoI is eye of the religious beholder. Selfstudier (talk) 14:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  No, it just looks at the current scope of the article. "Israel and Palestine" is narrower than the current scope, "Southern Levant" matches the current scope. BilledMammal (talk) 14:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  It says in the lead "In 1517, the Ottoman Empire conquered the region, ruling it until the British conquered it in 1917. The region was ruled under the British Mandate for Palestine until 1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was proclaimed in part of the ancient land of Israel." Looks like Israel and Palestine to me, sorry. Selfstudier (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  The lede also says During biblical times, two Israelite kingdoms occupied the highland zone, the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) in the north, and the Kingdom of Judah in the south. and In 165 BCE, after the religion-driven Maccabean Revolt, the independent Hasmonean Kingdom was established.

  However, we shouldn't be basing the article title on the lede, so looking at the body we also see discussion of activities outside the current borders of Israel and Palestine but within the borders of the Southern Levant. For example, In 125 BCE the Hasmonean King John Hyrcanus subjugated Edom and forcibly converted the population to Judaism. Edom primarily existed within the borders of modern Jordan. BilledMammal (talk) 14:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  However, we shouldn't be basing the article title on the lede Eh? Why not? The lead should be a summary of what the article is about. Although the first argument is a biblical history intended to conflate these "kingdoms" with Jews and Judaism and probably needs clarifying at some point. Selfstudier (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Because the lede is a summary of the article, not the entire article; it may by necessity omit aspects that are topical but would be WP:UNDUE in the lede. However, we are getting off topic: The scope of the article clearly extends beyond the current borders of Israel and Palestine. BilledMammal (talk) 15:08, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  The solution is to narrow the scope of the article to fit the title. If anything is left out about David's exploits in Syria, that is a topic for History of the Jews in Syria.Havradim leaf a message 15:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  +1, LoI can mean whatever people want it to, ie the article has no clear scope and substituting for Southern Levant based on a claim that this is equal to LoI equally has no basis whereas Israel and Palestine (or just Palestine if it comes to that) is inarguable. Selfstudier (talk) 15:21, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Editors don't appear to be !voting for a change of scope; they appear to be !voting under the belief that the proposed title matches the current scope. I would also oppose a change in scope as it doesn't benefit the reader to split our coverage of historical polities between several articles in order to neatly align them with the current borders; it will make it more difficult for the reader to understand the topic and provide no benefit. BilledMammal (talk) 15:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Call it a clarification of scope to not overlap with parallel articles. Is the only concern is the 50-year expansion by the Hasmoneans as mentioned in a single statement, the issue doesn't seem chronic. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:55, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  No, the concern is all the relevant polities that existed outside the current borders of Israel and Palestine; the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and the Hasmonean kingdom are just two examples of them. BilledMammal (talk) 17:04, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Minor overlap then. That sort of happens with the history of any subject in any given geography.. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:19, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Southern Levant is commonly used as the geographical name for the region in scholarship with one of the reasons being to avoid neutrality issues with Israel/Palestine. This is well attested in reliable sources, which I can cite later.Drsmoo (talk) 15:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  WP is not a source but Land of Israel says "Related biblical, religious and historical English terms include the Land of Canaan, the Promised Land, the Holy Land, and Palestine." and does not claim LoI = Southern Levant, says = "an area of the Southern Levant". I think this horse has been flogged enough, Israel and Palestine does it just fine especially if the article sticks to Jews and Judaism in the area and not geography as such. Selfstudier (talk) 15:35, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think a one sentence deviation into a different geography is likely to introduce an insurmountable degree of complexity for the average reader. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Land of Israel is simply not the common English name for the region and it never has been. See for example this ngram. It has never, not in the history of the English language, been the common name for the region. This should just be "in Palestine", but political sensitivities will get in the way of that, so "in Israel and Palestine" would at least be using what are the current common names for the area as opposed to having Wikipedia promote a religious viewpoint. nableezy - 13:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• After reading through this discussion again today, I have come to the conclusion that both "Israel and Palestine" and "Southern Levant" are better terms than Land of Israel. I've struck my "oppose", as, if one only considers the two proposed titles, the new one is an improvement.
  There is a sticking point here that I think I've worked out. There is a concern that "Land of Israel" is a Jewish term (as opposed to Islamic; and thus interpreted as pro-Israel as opposed to Palestine), and that is true. But on an article on the history of Judaism that is somewhat understandable, and it isn't egregiously so (as "History of the Jews in the Promised Land" would be).
  There is a different concern that "Land of Israel" is a religious term (as opposed to secular). Once again, it is. As emphasized by others above, the secular term for the region for the past 2000 years is "Palestine". But titling an article primarily about sites in the country of Israel as "History of the Jews in Palestine" would be too confusing. This leaves "Southern Levant" as the best option.
  Perhaps if the article were split in two at the Bar Kokhba revolt, it would be easier to name each of the pieces. But that would also be a separate discussion. Walt Yoder (talk) 18:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Do something: "Land of Israel" does not seem like an objective or clear description of a geographical area. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support a change away from "Land of Israel" - any of the proposed options would be okay, with "Southern Levant" sounding the best to me. "Land of Israel" has too much of religious connotation. I prefer "Southern Levant" to "Israel and Palestine" or "Israel-Palestine" because of the "Iberia"/"Spain and Portugal" rationale that Walt Yoder mentioned. HenryMP02 (talk) 21:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. This article is about Jews. The term The Land of Israel makes sense.— Preceding unsigned comment added by CarlSerafino (talk • contribs) 12:55, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to History of the Jews in Israel and Palestine as we have both an Israel and a Palestine concurrently now and historically both names would have covered both modern entities more or less. Killuminator (talk) 23:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• I !voted above on the proposal, but I also oppose "Israel and Palestine", anachronistic terminology that makes no sense historically. Srnec (talk) 20:17, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, you said that above already, some reason to repeat it? Selfstudier (talk) 21:29, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  I did not. I said I could consider the alternatives mooted by Dimadick (which are not unreasonable) and "Israel and Palestine" was one of them. I am clarifying in light of the support for this alternative that I am, after further consideration, against it. Srnec (talk) 00:41, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

  It's only anachronistic if every article on history in Wikipedia that describes a slice of human history up the present is anachronistic, because basically every history article delineates itself in terms of modern geographies, e.g. every article on the history of a country, and every other article in the series discussed here, i.e. "History of the Jews in..." The notion that this is somehow anachronistic, when the pattern is almost universal across the encyclopedia, seems nonsensical. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to History of the Jews in Israel and Palestine per above. This is not an article about the topic from a strictly Jewish perspective, it is a neutral article describing the history of these peoples in this land from a historical point of view. Hence it should use general language to describe it.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:38, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment - While there appears to be a consensus to move this page, there doesn't appear to be any consensus as to whether the new title should be "... in Israel–Palestine", "..in Israel and Palestine" or "in the Southern Levant".--estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Southern Levant" is preferable to me to any combinationof Israel and Palestine, but I still think "Land of Israel" is perfectly neutral in context. As is "Holy Land" in List of Christian holy places in the Holy Land. What is neutral about always forcing history into modern borders? Srnec (talk) 03:46, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  On the contrary, you've just highlighted another problematic title. That page covers locations in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Sinai, so many places outside even the vague "Holy Land". Iskandar323 (talk) 10:47, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  It's a list so it supposedly has inclusion criteria, says "The Holy Land is a loose notion. It covers territories which are mainly part of, or controlled by (from north to south), Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, and Egypt". Yep, just as vague as LoI. Selfstudier (talk) 11:02, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The term “Land of Israel” indicates the specific territory of interest and centrality of Jewish concern in the region historically. It also goes beyond the boundaries of modern Israel-Palestine, as well as Mandatory Palestine as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mistamystery (talk • contribs) 18:08, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

There isn’t remotely consensus here. Needs far more discussion and voices. Mistamystery (talk) 04:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment If we look at the article Jewish history for which the current article must be a subset, it describes the subject (.."the history of the Jews, and their nation, religion, and culture..") and then splits that out by time period, the only reference to a historical Land of Israel being "According to the Biblical narrative, the Land of Israel was organized into a confederacy of twelve tribes ruled by a series of Judges for several hundred years." under the section head "Early Israelites" which is linked out to Israelites as main. Then it says under the section Time periods in Jewish history, "The history of the Jews and Judaism can be divided into five periods:.." and lists out five time periods pre and post Judaism. This just makes me wonder what exactly is this article? Why would it not be linked out from Jewish history article? Selfstudier (talk) 16:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  The article on Jewish history is an article on *general* (read: global) Jewish history. It has a separate mandate from this page.

  This article is about the genesis of both the people and the religion within not only the land in which they emerged, but their continued relationship with that land (and concepts of, relationship to) in context of their ethno-national-religious development.

  As has already been covered in above comments, there are already separate articles pertaining to Jewish history to different regions and countries. This is the article pertaining to the regional definition central to the genesis of both the Jewish ethnicity-nation, as well as their religious practices and observances (of which a relationship to the general territorial concept of “The Land of Israel” is somewhat central in both textual and enacted religious practice and precept, as well as consistent political motivation).

  Commenting in more detail regarding the “Why the Land of Israel” debate. The specific territorial designation (in spite of its varying descriptions and boundary definitions) is both the only designation relevant and to the discussion of formation of both Israelite/Jewish/Samaritan ethnicity and religious practice, as well the only territorial designation that has had bearing on community motivation, action, defense, war, etc and is still the driving principal territorial concept pertaining to Israelite/Jewish/Samaritan life and activity in the region since the formation of these groups and their cultural outlook.

  “The Southern Levant” is too general and includes areas well beyond the territory in question. Both Canaan and Palestine are at their core regional descriptors that both have little to no relational bearing on the evolution of the two topics at hand.

  Mistamystery (talk) 06:36, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Honestly seems like splitting hairs after a certain point. 'Land of Israel' remains a term whose historical usage is predicated on delineating the presence or activities of Jews and Judaism. Emolu (talk) 22:19, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  It's not hair-splitting; it's adherence to WP:NPOV. "Land of Israel" appears only 30 times on the page and in the titles of only about 4 sources. "Palestine" appears 123 times, including in the title of more than two dozen sources. "Israel" alone appears 85 times in the titles of between one and two dozen sources. WP:NPOV tells us to follow the sources. I see no evidence at all that the sources show a preference for "Land of Israel". Iskandar323 (talk) 07:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  That's four more sources than use "Israel–Palestine" or "Israel and Palestine". Srnec (talk) 20:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

  As I said above, quite happy to change it to Palestine, if that's what you would prefer. Selfstudier (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Merge this

The material in this article should be merged to two different articles, Jewish history and Judaism (main article for Judaism history is Jewish history). it just looks like a fork of existing articles and the "Land of Israel" bit is just biblical POV.Selfstudier (talk) 11:59, 3 October 2023 (UTC)