Talk:History of Kosovo/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Creating sub-articles

When Chris created this page from Kosovo, he simultaneously changed two paragraphs, as could be seen in this diff. Now, I actually think that his change of the first paragraph improved the article, but this is bad practice as users can't see the diffs and hence wouldn't know about changes if they wouldn't check manually; and Chris didn't even state that there were any changes in the edit summary. (To clarify, I copy/pasted revision 6976963; it wasn't Chris who lowered number of refugees, it was GeneralPatton. Other changes are by Chris.) Nikola 11:33, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I added a few lines to fill in some missing details (I thought it was bizarre that NATO's intervention in Kosovo wasn't even mentioned), but unfortunately I didn't think of doing it separately from moving the page so that the difference could be seen. Sorry about that. -- ChrisO 00:33, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A short history of Kosovo

From A short history of kosovo. Rescued before redirect.

"A short history of Kosovo Present-day Kosovo becomes part of the Ottoman Empire in 1389. The Ottomon Empire establishes in 1877 a separate vilayet (province) of Kosovo. In 1912 Kosovo is incorporated into Serbia, and follows its history. In 1941 Kosovo is occupied by Italy, that annexes it to Albania. In 1944 the area is re-incorporated into Yugoslavia, that forms in 1945 the Autonomous Kosovo-Metohija District and in 1963 Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija and in 1968 the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo. Serbia strongly acts against autonomy in Kosovo and revokes autonomy in 1989. The province is renamed Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija in 1990. The Albanian community in Kosovo proclaims Kosovo in 1990 as a federal unit within Yugoslavia, but outside Serbia. In 1991 it declares itself independent as the Republic of Kosovo. This is not recognized by Yugoslavia. Ibrahim Rugova of the Lidhja Demokratike Te Kosovoës (Democratic League of Kosova, LDK) becomes the first president of Kosovo in the underground in 1991. The repression of the Albanese leads in 1999 to a foreign occupation and the establishment of an international administration of Kosovo in 2000. Serbia still claims Kosovo as part of Serbia. The United Nations appoint UN Administrators since 1999, who act since 2000 as Chairmen of the Interim Administrative Council. Kosovo becomes a parliamentary democratic entity in 2001. Since2002 Rugova becomes president of the entity of Kosovo. By Fatmir Curri"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisG (talk • contribs) 13:10, 3 April 2005 (UTC)

Caucasus

Some historians, including Serbian, claim the Albanians originate from the Caucasus, particularly Caucasian Albania, but most historians dispute these claims.

This is absurd. Only cranks would support such a claim. How would Albanian get their words of Latin origin if they lived in the Caucasus? Wikipedia should not list all the things crank theories claim. NPOW 12:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

I dispute the neutrality of this article because it fails to say who were the people that inhabited Kosovo before the Serbs arrived in the region. Even if now we can't be 100% certain about their exact identification, a NPOV discussion on the possibilities would be a good thing. NPOW 12:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Weasel words

"Albanian historians", "Romanian historians", "Serbian historians", "some estimates", 18 occurencies of the word "many", etc.

weasel words! NPOW 12:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Toponyms

Over 80% of Kosovan toponyms are Slavic and Serbian origin; starting with Kosovo, which root kos means "blackbird". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.226.117 (talk) 11:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

You do realize that Bulgaria and then the Byzantine empire invaded Kosovo first, right? Keep it Fake (talk) 04:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

References

This article, on a very disputed subject has no references! NPOW 12:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

LACK OF REFERENCES DETRIMENTAL TO THIS PAGE - Mister Greywolf 23 Jan 2007
The lack of references for this page seems extraordinary, and poorly serves anyone interested in learning more. Can the original author supply them?
The subject is about to become topical with the expected release of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahrisaari's recommendations on the future of Kosovo, probably in February 2007. If, as expected, the report recommends independence, this is bound to have major political repercussions for the whole Balkan region - not to mention that it is viewed as a test case of international thinking by numerous seperatist movements world-wide. This page can expect attention it is not up to.
There are no references for the history up to the 1980's or thereabouts, and then newspaper reports are cited, rather than histories. The exception is a refutation of a recent history by Noel Malcolm, published by a member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Art - which Academy itself is accused of pursuing a Serb nationalist agenda from the mid-80's. Surely the author got his/her information from somewhere.
The three external links lead to obviously partisan accounts by the two major contending parties - Albanian and Serb, which seem little more than propaganda.
Obviously the history of Kosovo is highly contested by these parties with vested interests. This history has an immediate relevance in that the future of Kosovo is being decided now. As far as I can see there is no univerally accepted "definitive" history published, and it may be that no such history will be acceptable to all. Nonetheless, I would have expected to see something, and for further reading:
"Between Serb and Albanian: History of Kosovo" by Miranda Vickers
"Kosovo: A Short History" by Noel Malcolm
Both have been criticized, but equally, so have all other histories. Surely the article as it stands could at least acknowledge its sources.
Mister Greywolf 20:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

LoL

Omg, this is really funny... If this is not neutral article, I don't know what article is..? If you want something to add, why can't you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mephistophilus (talk • contribs) 20:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Literatur

By Miranda Vickers
By Miranda Vickers

Miranda Vickers is a research student on Albanian history and a writer on Albanian affairs.
Copyright 1991 by History Today Ltd. Text may not be copied without the express written permission of History Today Ltd.
Vickers, M., What cost Kosova?., Vol. 41, History Today, 12-01-1991, pp 6.

citat: At the end of the 12th century, the great Serbian priest Stefan Nemanja with his army, penetrates all the way to Lipjan, and in 1170, at St. Pantin, on the left coast of [the river] Sitnica, close to Vuçitërn, defeats the Byzantine army. Since then, until the fall in Turkish control (1389), Kosova is a significant region of the Serbian Medieval state.” (Vojna enciklopedija, drugo izdanje, Beograd, 1972. - The Military Encyclopedia, second edition, Belgrade,1972.

219 years unter the Serbian Orthodox church (Not it!!! ther was the albanian trieber too).--Hipi Zhdripi 20:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

During the Turkish-Serbian war, 1877-78, the Serbian army progressed. Then came the retreat of migrated Albanians from the region of Toplica [Serbia], around Nis [Serbia] and Leskovac [Serbia]; they moved to Kosova and elsewhere.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

During the Yugoslav Kingdom, Kosova remained an agricultural land. Then came the colonization of Kosova with Serbs and Montenegrins. According to the data from this period, in only ten districts, 183,848 hectares of land were appropriated for the colonizers. The forced placement of a part of the settlers in homes of Albanian peasants and the confiscation of their plowable land complicated the situation in Kosova: entire villages rebelled, after which the army intervened, and a gap was created between the inhabitants and the government, so was an open enmity between the colonists and the old inhabitants.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

“The Albanian masses received the fall of the Yugoslav Kingdom as an easing of their position, and occupation as liberation from the enslavement of the Greater Serbian bourgeoisie.” (Vojna enciklopedija, drugo izd., Beograd, 1972. - The Military Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., Belgrade,1972).--Hipi Zhdripi 20:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

This most be implmentyt in this articel

(Long contents by User:Hipi Zhdripi moved here: Talk:History of Kosovo/1 by Duja 14:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC).)

On the KLA

``The KLA launched a low-intensity guerrilla war characterised by regular bomb and gun attacks on Serbian security forces, state officials and civilians accused of "collaborating" with the Serbian government.``

- What a sentence. How dare you to write something like this? more than 2000 serbs killed and millions of dollars this terrorist group made through drug and people trafficking and you describe the group (KLA) as weak guerilla force. What a shame. Stop kosovar albanian extremism! Gianni ita 18:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, Gianni, more than 10000 Albanians are victims of the same war we are talking about. Do we call all Serbian police, military forces terrorists now? What do you think? And KLA did do that what Hipi mentioned above. A minority of them (as shown by the number of Hague tribunal indictees) has also been accused of crimes. It does not mean they are all terrorists. Try to be a bit more neutral. It is healthy, too. Ilir pz 19:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, i pointed out several times that the serbian police in kosovo did commit horrible crimes too. Don't try to fool me by saying that a minority of the KLA members are the only ones responsible. Drug and people trafficking is not a process that can be done only with a few people, it requires powerful ones, and it requires a larger number of people. And thank you for worrying about my health, i've never been better, how bout you? Gianni ita 21:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I am fine thanks. I haven't notice you having said anything about crimes commited on Albanians, but if that is the case, it is encouraging. I don't exclude any ex-KLA member to be doing that. They are humans, too (if you didnt know). You cannot say that about the whole group. The last Serbs I remember were killers with knives in my garden, druk and all painted. Do I consider all Serbs such now? You even have not met any, just read some Kosovo Coordination Centre leaflets.
Drug and people trafficking existed, exists, and will exist in all the Balkans. Don't tell me now that there is no such in Serbia?! Of course there is. Mafia exists in Sweden, too. None is labelling any specific organisation for that. There is no ideology that mafia carries out. Unless you want to blacken the whole picture over KLA, then go ahead. Ilir pz 21:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are you playing with my words? I never generalize people, and i don't think that all the Albanian Kosovars are mean people, I just know that 90% of KLA members are brainwashed killers and criminals. And the same thing about the majority of paramilitary serbian forces in Kosovo.

and about drug and people trafficking, well, you can say it is happening in the Balkan peninsula, but if you wanted to be more precise you would say that majority of these actions take place in Kosovo. I agree, mafia exists everywhere and will always exist, but the question is in what amount. that 'amount' in kosovo is pretty big. Gianni_ita 18:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

For the Rusian source

Is the best way to see the boock (I have in German) DER BALKAN, geschihte und Politik seit Alexander dem Grossen from Dorothea Grafin Razumovsky. The capitel Die Slawen kommen She is traing to say that Belisar it was a slaw. see her opinion in seid 80: Perheps the Belisar it was himself Slaw. Do you wan to take this als argument? He (Belisar) has didet 563 in fredom after he has maked war with the Hunen, after some mothe that the illyrien-romankristians was t not correct (far). Do you want that to put here als argument?. How you see from this propaganda boock, in this time the Bizantin was roulit from the peopel with birth place betwen (today) Prishtina and Nish. You are traig to say the World that these peope (Justian) who hase maked so many new citys in birth place (Kosovo area today) was so stupide and diden protect his birth place. Hahhahah ? - Hipi Zhdripi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs) -using the IP 172.174.222.131 (talk · contribs)- 20:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Dont forget the peopel of Justians folk are working and living till today in Kosovo, one of them you are discussin with him. -- Hipi Zhdripi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs) -using the IP 172.174.222.131 (talk · contribs)- 20:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

spam
this is not neutral at all ...the autor is trying to be neutral but he or she is NOT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.201.236.194 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Source

On the post 1999 section the article reads that:

However in November 2005, a United States Department of State official hinted that the independence is possible, just that the Albanians "have to prove that they're worthy of it" and that negotiations on the status of the province would begin in January 2006. [1]

I have a couple of comments on this text:

  1. that an unnamed US State Department official says something isn't really weighty enough to warrant a place in an intl. encyclopedia
  2. the quote (have to prove...) isn't sourced
  3. negotiation on the future status of the province have already begun (not in Jan 2006)
  4. the link to the Bulgarian newsservice is dead

While it would be in its place to inform the reader that Kosovo is likely to be given some sort of conditional independence (at least for a time), it should come from a better source and be properly sourced. It shouldn't be so hard to find.Osli73 21:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Order of Listing of Population seems to be not NPOV

In the article Kosovo the population of Kosovo is listed as "It has a population of just over two million people, predominantly ethnic Albanians, with smaller populations of Serbs, Turks, Bosniaks, Romani people, and other ethnic groups." Whereas this article lists it as "Kosovo's population has been ethnically diverse over the years, with the province's complex ethnic map including Ladins, Turks, Roma, Bosniaks, Gorans, Jews, Janjevs, Serbs, and Albanians."

This latter list, from this article, seems to be distinctly not NPOV, listing Albanians last, relegated almost to an afterthought, rather than the predominant population.--Richardb43 (talk) 23:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

We need documents to support this claim: "from predominantly Christian Serbian"

We need documents to support this claim: "from predominantly Christian Serbian" in this paragraph: "Kosovo's ethnic population has fluctuated wildly over the centuries and even recent decades, from predominantly Christian Serbian to predominantly Muslim Albanian, with the region's complex ethnic map currently including Albanians, Serbs, Bosniaks, Turks, Roma, Bulgarians, Gorans, Jews and Janjevs."

Also considering that a good number of Albanians always boycotted Serbian census, their data becomes useless. Ottoman census data could be more reliable.

References?

In the third paragraph of the article it states "Albanian [sic] have always been the predominant people within the region's complex ethnic map...". No reference is listed. This assertion is, to my knowledge, inaccurate, and directly contradicts referenced information in the Demographics of Kosovo article.

The sources I've seen have indicated that Albanians were a minority until the 19th century, during which they became a plurality, and that the Albanian population did not become a majority until somewhere between the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I also noticed that particular revision was made recently, and by an unregistered user. If someone who can be objective about this issue can verify my information, or provide references supporting the current text. I'll look through whatever references I can find, too.

In the meantime, perhaps that sentence should be deleted or reworded. Anybody have any thoughts? Xreebnorq (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Documents of Demographics of Kosovo During Serbian Kingdom

These document (statistic) shouldnt be used to determine the demographics of Kosovo during this period fue to the fact that they are very unreliable. They are unrelieble because they only state names and religion. The show that there a very few Albanian names and alot of Serbian Orthodox ones. Further studys of these documents show Albanian fathers with Albanian names and their sons with Serbian Orthodox names e.g. A father with and Albanian name Tanush whose sone is called Boljko a Serbian name. This indicates that Albanians during this period were infact Serbian Orthodox. Also if Albanians began living their lives like Serbs in law they couldnt be distinguished. Unlike Vlachs, Albanians were allowed to live out their lives like the Serbs. These facts (which all come from a very reliable sourse "Kosovo: A Short History" By Noel Malcolm) prove that these documents (statistics) shouldnt be put in this article because it is misleading people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obivious (talk • contribs) 08:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Chetnik Cabal

Wikipedia: one of the few places in the Universe where the NATO bombing of Serbia is considered “a worse war crime” than the Srebrenica Massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.52.86.134 (talk) 13:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

1241?

One of the titles of the sections is "Serbia (1241 to 1455)". Is there some source for 1241 as a year of the beginning of the Serbian rule?--Males (talk) 19:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Included in the Timeline_of_Kosovo_History

I have included this in the Timeline of Kosovo history : Timeline_of_Kosovo_History

Note that Dardani says that : Dardania was conquered in AD 6 by Gaius Scribonius Curio and included into the Roman Empire. you say it was bc. please check.

Mdupont (talk) 08:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Nice Job

I have just read this article as a 'civilian'; just like to say how good it is, especially the maps. CPES (talk) 10:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Colonisation of Kosovo

Please review the article Colonisation of Kosovo and if you think it appropriate, merge the content into the relevant section of this article. -- Eastmain (talk • contribs) 04:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is the text of the article: 

{{mergeto|History of Kosovo}}
'''Colonisation of Kosovo''' was a state project implemented 
by the [[Kingdom of Yugoslavia]] during the interwar period. 
During this [[colonisation]], on Kosovo was settled between 60.000<ref>M. Obradović, 
Agrarna reforma i kolonizacija na Kosovu 1918-1941 (str. 153, 210, 215, 220), Priština 1981.</ref> and 
65.000<ref>[http://www.serbianunity.net/culture/library/ovk/pobuna.html Prva balistička pobuna]</ref> 
[[colonist]]s. Over 90% of the total number of colonists were [[Serbs]] (including 
[[Montenegrins]]).<ref name="Pavlović">[http://scindeks-clanci.nb.rs/data/pdf/0353-9008/2008/0353-90080824231P.pdf 
Aleksandar Pavlović, Prostorni raspored Srba i Crnogoraca kolonizovanih na Kosovo i Metohiju 
u periodu između 1918. i 1941. godine]</ref> Parallel with the Serbian colonization, 
it was carried out the process of forced [[migration]] of [[Albanians]] from 
Kosovo.<ref>[http://www.kosova.com/arkivi1997/expuls/contents.htm Expulsions of Albanians and Colonisation of Kosova]</ref> 

== Reference ==
{{reflist}}

== External links ==
* [http://www.kosova.com/arkivi1997/expuls/contents.htm Expulsions of Albanians and 
Colonisation of Kosova] (English)
* [http://scindeks.nb.rs/article.aspx?artid=0354-64970603025J Vladan Jovanović, 
Tokovi i ishod međuratne kolonizacije Makedonije, Kosova i Metohije] (Serbian)
* [http://scindeks-clanci.nb.rs/data/pdf/0353-9008/2008/0353-90080824231P.pdf Prostorni 
raspored Srba i Crnogoraca kolonizovanih na Kosovo i Metohiju u periodu između 1918. i 1941. godine] (Serbian)
* [http://komunisti.50webs.com/generalsm12.html O zabrani povratka kolonistima] (Serbian)
* [http://sq.wikibooks.org/wiki/Kolonizimi_Serb_i_Kosov%C3%ABs Kolonizimi Serb i Kosovës] (Albanian)

{{Kosovo-stub}}
{{Serbia-hist-stub}}
{{Montenegro-stub}}

[[Category:History of Kosovo]]
[[Category:History of Serbia]]
[[Category:History of Montenegro]]
[[Category:History of Yugoslavia]]
[[Category:Colonialism]]

[[sh:Kolonizacija Kosova]]
[[sr:Kolonizacija Kosova i Metohije]]
Agree to merge. These few sentences are pov, so it can be mentioned with fixes in here, but does not deserve separate article. --Tadija (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Synvet Map

I removed that map because it isn't an ethnographic map but a map connecting ehtnicity to religion. I don't think that anyone can argue that Mussulmans is an ethnic description of any kind or that there is a nation called Serbo-Croats or Bulgar-Greeks.----ZjarriRrethues (talk) 17:49, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Since you just pasted your "explanation here, I'll just do the same:
Hmm, but it just signifies a mixed population, comprised mainly of Bulgarians and Greeks. It is quite a valuable map, so, please, make sure you provide precise and unbiased reasons for its removal. Thank you.--Laveol T 18:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Was there a nation called Mussulmans in the Balkans? Under this context you can see that the map is not referring to ethnicities but religions or rather religious-based nations.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 23:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Synvet's map

I removed the ref about A.Synvet being pro-Greek because what the ref actually says is not at all that: It says that the MAP was favourable to the Greek cause, which is something entirely different. In detail: "Other maps (not other geographers) amongst other ..... were favourable to the Greek cause" meaning that they agreed with the Greeks. That doesn't make (the geographers themselves) pro-Greek. The text is free on line as pdf --Factuarius (talk) 00:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

No, Synvet was pro-Greek. See here: [2]. I would say that "Synvet was a Greek schoolmaster" and "adopted a novel method of belittling the Slavic claims" are very indicative, as is the fact that he used statistics provided by the Constantinople patriarchate: [3]. Kostja (talk) 07:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

First you added a misleading caption about Synvet being pro-Greek while the source says nothing about him, now you bring an utterly unreliable reference saying the ridiculous that A.Synvet was a Greek schoolmaster. Well, he was not, he was a Frenchman, and the Ottoman Imperial Lyceum of Galataserai was not a Greek, but a Turk high ranking college, which had always Turk-national and prominent nationalist governors and is known as being well connected with the Young-Turk movement. Also the opinion that everything that "belittling the Slavic claims" in Balkans is pro-Greek, is also ridiculous. I am going to remove it until you will find a source for Synvet in being pro-Greek. Please avoid such misleading tricks in the future. --Factuarius (talk) 06:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The source doesn't say he was Greek, it says he was a Greek schoolmaster. Anti-Slavic in this period in the Balkans meant pro-Greek. you know that very well. Also, he was connected with the Constantinople patriarchate. Note this is the same source from which you took the statement that the Vidal Lablache atlas was pro-Bulgarian.
Still, it's possible to have different interpretations on the subject, so if it can lead to compromise, I'm not averse to changing the caption to "a pro-Greek map" which it undeniably is. Kostja (talk) 06:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
He wasn't of Greek nationality neither was a Greek schoolmaster. I didn't added the ref about the Vidal Lablache atlas, someone else did it. But you remove it from every single article having that map. Stop misquoting sources and playing with double standards. --Factuarius (talk) 08:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I removed it because it was a misquote as I've explained in detail. Kostja (talk) 08:16, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Modern-day propaganda

Kosovo, atleast by name if not by territory, is subject to propaganda by two nations, Albanians and Serbs. Is it not worth mentioning these things and very close to the intro too? I mean, before the inception of the Kosovo Vilayet in 1877, Kosovo has not existed in any incarnation for several centuries; and it was only after this new entity that timing coincided with nationalist aspirations that had been developing during that time (note: this observation is not designed to benefit one party and disenfranchise the other). Evlekis (Евлекис) 16:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Seventeenth century migration

Current version reads: "Around the 17th century, there is evidence of an increasingly visible Albanian population initially concentrated in Metohija[citation needed]. It has been claimed this was the result of migrations out of the south-west (i.e. modern Albania), and that the putative migrants brought Islam with them. Historians believe that there was probably a pre-existing population of probably Catholic Albanians in Metohija who mostly converted to Islam[citation needed]". I find this problematic (and not NPOV although it seems to include both Albanian and Serbian revisions), for several reasons, and want to explain my proposed edit as a result. First, "Metohija". I have no objections to Serbians calling Western Kosovo "Metohija" or Albanians calling it "Dukagjini" (although I think "Metohija" is a twentieth-century invention, and one invented by Montenegrins rather than Serbs, in the hope that by distinguishing Western from Eastern Kosovo might help them to get back their 1912 conquests one day). But this is an English-language article and if we want to make the distinction we should use "Western Kosovo". But I think that the geographical distinction is unnecessary, even though I think it is also probably true. I propose to use "Kosovo", instead. Wherever the Albanian-speaking population was concentrated (and Edith Durham as late as 1908 says that Ferizaj/Urosevac was then majority Serb) it seems to have been spreading, and further than Kosovo itself. Secondly, I have no doubt that there were migrations out of the mountains of modern Albania. Kosovar nationalist myths may wish to downplay this. But it is self-evident that a region which could only support a given number of people would export the surplus rather than have them die. I know a number of families in Kosovo which trace their descent to Albania; for example, in the village of Qyshk/Čushka, which started off as one family, they came from Albania. And, of course, they migrated further afield; how else to explain significant numbers of Albanians in Niš up to 1878? But not just from the south-west (which anyway was for a time Slav/Serb-speaking). More from north-west (e.g. the Kelmendis). The article as it currently stands gives evidence that there were Albanian-speakers in Kosovo before the 17th century. By that time, some will have been Islamic, some will have been Orthodox (although they may have increasingly identified themselves as Serbs) and some were certainly Catholic, although I shall have to provide the citation. I propose, therefore, to edit to: "From the 17th century, there is evidence of an increasing proportion of Albanian-speakers in Kosovo,spreading from the West[citation needed]. Some of this seems to have been the result of migration from the mountains of modern Albania into lands which could support higher populations, and that the putative migrants brought Islam with them. Catholic Albanians who found it convenient to be officially Muslim (whatever their origions) were not allowed by the Vatican to continue Catholic rites in private, and therefore became increasingly Islamised" --Markd999 (talk) 21:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markd999 (talk • contribs)

Ottoman Empire: Conversions

Present text reads:

"It is also noted that many Albanians adopted Islam, whilst only a very small minority of Serbs did so."

Agreed that most Albanians eventually adopted Islam, and only a minority of Serbs did so. But I think it is impossible to say whether that minority was "very small", small, or significant. Clearly in mountainous regions large numbers of Slavs converted to Islam, who consider themselves nowadays either Gorani or Bosniaks, speak in Slavic, and have family names which are both Muslim and Slavic in form (e.g. Mehmedov"). But in an urban setting, or an area easily accessible to urban centres, this would not have been the case. Upon conversion, the convert would have taken a Muslim name. Instead of having family names, the Ottoman convention was that after one's own name one placed one's father's. It would seem likely that, in a multi-lingual setting, such families would have eventually identified themselves either as Turks or Albanians, and family names offer no way to identify that they at some point considered themselves Serbs. (The opposite is the case for families who considered themselves Albanians but now speak Slavic; in Macedonia "Arnaudov" ("son of an Albanian") is a common family name but no-one seems to notice the obvious corollary that the family has some Albanian ancestry. (No doubt a Macedonian historian will insist that it is a corruption of "Aleksandrov" and they are all descendants of Alexander the Great).

The obvious correction is that the sentence should read " Most Albanians in Kosovo eventually adopted Islam, while Most Serbs did not".

But I wonder whether it should not also include reasons why. It was not generally in Ottoman interests or ideology that all Christians convert (Christians and Jews paid higher taxes than Muslims, although they were exempt from military service and could not carry arms legally). Albanians and Serbs had equal motives for conversion in terms of paying less tax or having access to bureaucratic or military careers; but Albanians from mountainous and lawless areas had clearly more motive in order to be able to carry weapons; and Serbs had more motive to keep a Serb Orthodox identity as long as the Serbian Patriarchate existed and had jurisdiction over them (and the right to intervene in Istanbul on their behalf), while the Albanians had no similar motive.

I shall make the obvious correction but invite contributions about whether this sEntance should not be expanded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markd999 (talk • contribs) 20:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Source? Nothing should be changed without a source for this... and, please, WP:TLDR. --WhiteWriterspeaks 21:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

The second Yugoslavia

Current text reads:

"Serbs living in Kosovo were discriminated against by the provincial government (the term "ethnic cleansing" was coined to denote these actions),"

Whether one regards the Serb position as being discriminated against, or as having positive discrimination ended or reduced, is of course a matter of opinion. What is certainly the case, however, is that the term "ethnic cleansing" was used much earlier, by Belgrade, so I propose to delete the passage in brackets with a reference to the earliest Serbian use of the term in my explanation.

--Markd999 (talk) 23:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to replace word coined with used.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:26, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire

Current text has the following paragraph:

"In 1689 Kosovo was greatly disrupted by the Great Turkish War (1683–1699), in one of the pivotal events in Serbian national mythology. In October 1689, a small Habsburg force under Margrave Ludwig of Baden breached the Ottoman Empire and reached as far as Kosovo, following their earlier capture of Belgrade. Many Serbs and Albanians pledged their loyalty to the Austrians, some joining Ludwig's army. This was by no means a universal reaction; many other Albanians fought alongside the Ottomans to resist the Austrian advance. A massive Ottoman counter-attack the following summer drove the Austrians back to their fortress at Niš, then back to Belgrade, then finally back across the Danube into Austria."

I do not see that this adds significantly to the second paragraph of this section; even if there is some significant additional information relating to Kosovo (I cannot see that there is) duplication should be avoided and the additionsl information put in the second paragraph. I propose to delete.--Markd999 (talk) 18:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

There is no duplication. I think that deletion would be wrong.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:22, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Antid. --WhiteWriterspeaks 22:24, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, of course you would agree with Antid. But what information do you want to keep which is not in the earlier paragraph on the Great Turkish War? If I came from Baden, perhaps I would like to keep Margrave Ludwig. Since I come from England, I would quite like to mention that the brother of King George I of Britain was killed at Kacanik, If I were Macedonian, I would want to include the fact that the Austrians got as far as Skopje. But none of this seems particularly relevant to the history of Kosovo, rather than to the history of the Great Turkish War.Markd999 (talk) 21:44, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Go ahead, be bold.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:22, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Or be careful and not reported. You must gain consensus for your edits in ARBMAC area. You didnt presented nay real reason for removal except IDONTLIKEIT. Relevant information, that help us to understand historical context. Should not be deleted. --WhiteWriterspeaks 14:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Dukagjin

Is Dukagjin considered Albania or Kosovo?

Twillisjr (talk) 16:42, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

There are several areas called Dukagjin in Albanian. They correspond to various territories held by the Dukagjini family in the middle ages.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:59, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

merge (WRT 1990s here)

Please see Talk:Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo#merge. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Ancient city of Novo Brda

-I would like to add something in the article.It's about the ancient city of Novo Bërda-(Albanian) Ново Брда-(Serbian),Novo Brda-(English). The city is around 2000 years old.The Roman empire has placed it camps around the hills and mountains of it.They have built their mines there to dig for coal,and for gold.Kosovo is a wealthy place with coal,but gold wasn't found by the locals or anyone else there.During Ottoman invasion of Arbëria(medieval Albania)there was built a fortress which stands even today as a touristic historical site.Below the fortress nearby are the ruins of the city.The fortress has been damaged and plants have grown inside it after the many years.In the hill nearby is the tyrbe of Mehmed Pasha.Tyrbe's are tombs,and this one is dedicated to him,in the garden of the Tyrbe are the graves of Turkish soldiers.The Tyrbe is over 400 years old.In Muslim religion,people have to walk three times around the body of the dead there,and pray,wish for something in their lives to go well.A little farther is the Mosque of Novo brda,it is also around 400 years old,inside it contains plates with Arabic letters,somewhat wall-carpets with the view of Mecca,also the two Quran books with Arabic letters also.Novo Brda is serbian for "New Hill" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 21:48, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

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Cohen (2014)

@Griboski: I removed content based on Cohen (2014). There is no demographic information about Kosovo in until the end of 15th century and even then we don't have information about ethnicity, but about anthroponymy. The first direct references to ethnic groups in medieval/Ottoman Kosovo come from the 16th century. I think that when we use political science publications about demographic history we often run into claims which can't be verified in bibliography about historical demography.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

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