Talk:History of Arda/Archive 1

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Finarfin

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth

In History of Arda Why are Finarfin and his children (esp. Finrod) not mentioned in the Years of the Trees, or the First Age? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.155.3.135 (talk) 18:10, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I've now added Finarfin but imo including Finrod would make the article overly detailed. He had an important role in Beren's quest to recover the Silmaril but there's no mentioning of Beren and Lúthien in this article either. De728631 (talk) 19:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Recommendation to split the article into 2nd and 3rd ages

Considering the sheer amount of historical content that occurs in the history of Arda, wouldn't it be better to quantify the amount of available space therein by simply separating this article in half based on its dual time periods? I think it would make much more sense and definitely keep the narrative in step with the chronology of the First Age as well as the Fourth Age. Zach (talk) 07:34, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Years of the Lamps

The term "Years of the Lamps" was never used by Tolkien in any of his writings. Furthermore, the term doesn't even match the entire period of time it's meant to cover; the time period is supposed to cover everything since the beginning of Arda up to the creation of the Two Trees in Valian Year 3500, thus making the term "Years of the Lamps" a misnomer. The actual term Tolkien used for this period of time was the "Days Before Days".

It is computed by the lore-masters that the Valar came to the realm of Arda, which is the Earth, five thousand Valian Years ere the first rising of the Moon, which is as much as to say forty-seven thousands and nine hundred and one of our years. Of these, three thousand and five hundred (or thirty-three thousand five hundred and thirty of our reckoning) passed ere the measurement of time first known to the Eldar began with the flowering of the Trees. Those were the Days before Days. Thereafter one thousand and four hundred and five and ninety Valian Years (or fourteen thousand of our years and three hundred and twenty-two) followed during which the Light of the Trees shone in Valinor. Those were the Days of Bliss. In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Cuiviénen and the First Age of the Children of Iluvatar began.
— J.R.R. Tolkien , History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring

--Atharaphelun (talk) 06:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks. I've relabelled the section using the name given in The Silmarillion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Do note that the Spring of Arda (began in Valian Year 1900 of the Days before Days and ends in Valian Year 3450 of the Days before Days) is only a specific portion of the Days before Days. The chronology as presented in the Annals of Aman from History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring is divided into the Days before Days, followed by the Years of the Trees in which a new reckoning begins (with the creation of the Two Trees, the year resets to Valian Year 1 of the Years of the Trees), and finally followed by the Years of the Sun. --Atharaphelun (talk) 11:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Maps of Arda

The maps included in this article are substantially inaccurate. Please refer to History of Middle-earth IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth, specifically the section on the Ambarkanta to see Tolkien's own maps of Arda for reference. Also refer to Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth to see maps of Arda throughout the Ages based on Tolkien's own maps from the Ambarkanta but modified to match information from Tolkien's writings that is otherwise not reflected in Tolkien's Ambarkanta maps.

Also, the map of Arda with the Two Lamps is inaccurate as well. According to the Ambarkanta, when the Valar descended into Arda, it already had two primeval seas which laid in "troughs" - one in the west (which later became known as the Belegaer) and one in the east (which later became known as the East Sea). Thus Arda was already divided into three continents - Aman in the uttermost west, Middle-earth in the center, and the Lands of the Sun/East Land in the uttermost east. This is what it should roughly look like when Arda was full-wrought and lit by the Two Lamps.

--Atharaphelun (talk) 07:21, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks. There actually aren't any maps, only diagrams of the transformations with no attempt whatsoever at cartography; I'll check they're labelled as such. The Two Lamps one will need to be redrawn. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

There's no need to actually make them detailed, it's just that the general shapes of the lands and seas should follow Tolkien's maps from the Ambarkanta as well as Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps for the later ages from The Atlas of Middle-earth. Otherwise, people will end up assuming that David Day's infamous "lungs map" (which is what I assume you based your maps on given the similarity) is an accurate depiction of Arda. --Atharaphelun (talk) 11:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it while keeping the diagrams simple. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually the Spring of Arda image is fine for the first state of the world: it's in good agreement with Fonstad p. 2 and with Tolkien's description. The maps on Fonstad pp 2-3 are not yet covered, so some of the other diagrams will need to be tweaked. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:08, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

That's because Karen Wynn Fonstad herself made the error and failed to take into account the description provided in the Ambarkanta (in fact only one of several errors that she has made), and since she has passed away that error will remain in The Atlas of Middle-earth forever; this is why a lot of the maps of the Spring of Arda are in fact in error, because those maps were based on Karen Wynn Fonstad's map instead of referring directly to the text of the Ambarkanta. The map for the Spring of Arda still needs to be changed to match the description as presented by Tolkien himself in the Ambarkanta. Atharaphelun (talk) 19:02, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Well you're now moving into the realm of your opinion, whereas Fonstad is in Wikipedia's terms a reliable published source, which is the only kind we are allowed to use. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:26, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I have already provided you with the necessary quotes and citation that already proves that Karen Wynn Fonstad's decision to not include the primeval seas was an error; it is not mere opinion. In fact, the Tolkiengateway article on The Atlas of Middle-earth shows the plethora of mistakes that Karen Wynn Fonstad made in her book - most were corrected in the revised edition, but several errors still remain, the map of the Spring of Arda being one of them. Atharaphelun (talk) 20:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Tolkien Gateway isn't a reliable source as anyone can edit it, though it often points to accurate sources. I think all that's needed here is to say 'according to Fonstad'. That attribution will enable interested readers to follow the matter up, and flag to others that there may be a divergence from Tolkien, so I'll do that now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC) t

And this Wikipedia article can just as easily be edited as well. The point I'm making is that the citations are very clearly provided in the Tolkiengateway article on The Atlas of Middle-earth so it's an extremely simple matter to check the information provided in the article with the relevant sources, assuming of course you actually have access to the source materials in question. Judging from your repeated refusal to even fact check the list of errors provided in the article with the relevant citation, I'm getting the impression that you either do not have access to books in question or you're unwilling to do so for some inexplicable reason, despite all the evidence already laid out for you to check. The description in the WikiProject Middle-earth makes it clear that there should be no bias whatsoever in any of the articles written. I would certainly be more than happy to do the necessary edits myself if necessary if you continue to refuse to check the primary sources for the information that supports the existence of the primeval seas during the Spring of Arda, as stated in the Ambarkanta, which is included in the History of Middle-earth IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth. Atharaphelun (talk) 10:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

NIce work. Halbared (talk) 10:04, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Reshaping of Arda diagrams

I've redrawn all the diagrams of the reshaping of Arda and its continents. The intention now, as before, was to illustrate the cosmology and history. I've spent some time trying to work out from Tolkien's very fuzzy Ambarakanta maps what he meant, and have attempted to represent the basic outlines to give an account of the cosmological processes as far as that's possible, using the drawings and texts of both Tolkien and Fonstad. The continents are drawn with just a few points to give a rough idea of the outlines, i.e. these are not maps but diagrams of processes. If anyone believes they know enough to draw in accurate outlines, they are welcome to work on it; for the purposes of these diagrams, I don't think it's appropriate or necessary. Hope that's clear for everyone. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

War of Wrath and Dagor Dagorath

In the current version of the article, in the section 'First Age', is the following paragraph:

In a letter, Tolkien wrote that "This legendarium [of the First Age, The Silmarillion] ends with a vision of the end of the world, its breaking and remaking, and the recovery of the Silmarilli and the 'light before the Sun' – after a final battle [The War of Wrath] which owes, I suppose, more to the Norse vision of Ragnarök than to anything else, though it is not much like it." The Tolkien commentator David Day supports Tolkien's comparison, noting that both battles begin with a horn-blast (the Horn of the Maia Eönwë, the Gjallarhorn of the god Heimdall), and that in both, there is a giant antagonist (Gothmog the Balrog, Surt the fire giant) armed with a flaming sword.

I've re-read Letter 131, which is what is being quoted here, and Tolkien is clearly referring to the War of Wrath and Dagor Dagorath as two separate things here. When he says "this legendarium ends with a vision of the end of the world", he has just described the War of Wrath and is now referring to a vision of the (much later) Dagor Dagorath. It is not clear here whether he had yet dropped this concept of Dagor Dagorath (letter 131 was "probably written late in 1951"). But the description here does seem to be conflating the two. Is Tolkien saying that the War of Wrath itself is this 'vision' of the Dagor Dagorath? IMO, the concept of Dagor Dagorath needs to be treated separately to the War of Wrath. Something about Dagor Dagorath is needed in this article. Note the deletion discussion here. Carcharoth (talk) 20:37, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

The paragraph is indeed about the Dagor Dagorath, which is about the end of the world. With those two things added, the paragraph is all right, and it probably says as much about the DD as we need to say, since it references the Silmarillion and Ragnarök. The deleted DD article didn't cite much (anything?) else, and unless scholars find something more to say about the subject, the matter can rest here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for those changes. I agree it can rest there absent any scholarly commentary, we don't want too many phoenixes! One slight problem - when Day refers to the horn blast of Eönwë, that could be both the War of Wrath and the Dagor Dagorath, but I think Day is referring to the War of Wrath. Also, Day's reference to Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, is completely bogus as far as I can tell - that Gothmog was killed in battle in the Fall of Gondolin, surely? Carcharoth (talk) 23:31, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, he's a terrible source. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)