Talk:Herr Mannelig

Is this really a medieval song? I thought there was no evidence for that. The earliest source I know is from 1877, in this collection [1] or more specifically the first song in the PDF file of volume 1 ([2]). It lists both melody and text (Bergatrollets frieri). There is a text variant (Skogsjungfruns frieri) in volume 3 of the same collection ([3]). --130.217.240.32 (talk) 05:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

swedish wikipedia states here that what is commonly referred to as medeltida ballader (medieval ballads) often comes from a later period. don't know about english use of the term though. k kisses 22:13, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The language illustrated here is not Old Swedish but 19th century-Swedish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.204.172 (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Before Garmarna (I think?) did this version popular. The most usually performed version was the versions based on the myth of Duke Magnus of Östergötland. Usually named like "Herr Magnus och havstrollet" or "Herr Magnus och älvorna" or something like that. Which version is oldest and how old is probably hard to now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.199.3.175 (talk) 03:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

English translation

Hi from Sweden. I noted that the English translation is more different from the original text than necessary, and thus it isn't very useful for study/reference. Also, is the translation originally from e.g. a CD booklet, such as that of Garmarna's album Guds spelemän? If so, do any copyright issues arise? In any case, I made a new translation, to which I added a few remarks in brackets. I suppose the text comes out awkward in English, but I tried to convey the original as closely as possible, so please avoid changing it unless it really, really is needed. The change from "you" to "thou" is intentional, since the troll speaks with in the polite plural and the young man doesn't. The previously used translation is this:

  Early one morning before the sun did rise
   And the birds sang their sweet song
   The mountain troll proposed to the fair squire
   She had a false deceitful tongue

   Sir Mannelig, Sir Mannelig won't you marry me
   For all that I'll gladly give you
   You may answer only yes or no
   Will you do so or no

   To you I will give the twelve great steeds
   That graze in a shady grove
   Never has a saddle been mounted on their backs
   Nor had a bit in their mouths

   To you I will give the twelve fine mills
   That stand between Tillo and Terno
   The mill stones are made of the reddest brass
   And the wheels are silver-laden

   To you I will give the gilded sword
   That jingles from fifteen gold rings
   And strike with it in battle as you will
   On the battlefield you will conquer

   To you I will give a brand new shirt
   The lustrous best for to wear
   It is not sewn with needle or thread
   But crocheted of the whitest silk

   Gifts such as these I would gladly receive
   If you were a Christian woman
   But I know you are the worst mountain troll
   From the spawn of the Neck and the devil

   The mountain troll ran out the door
   She wailed and she shrieked so loudly
   "Had I gotten that handsome squire
   From my torment I would be free now"

   Sir Mannelig, Sir Mannelig won't you marry me
   For all that I'll gladly give you
   You may answer only yes or no
   Will you do so or no 

— 77.105.196.184 (talk) 10:37, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I also wonder why the translation is differing beyond what seems necessary. Apart from the aforementioned issues (politeness) it is changing the explicit meaning of the following verse:

   Eder vill jag gifva en skjorta så ny
   Den bästa I lysten att slita
   Inte är hon sömnad av nål eller trå
   Men virkat av silket det hvita 

Previous translation:

   To you I wish to give a shirt so new
   The best you will want to wear
   It [literally: she] was not sewn by needle or thread
   But crocheted of white silk 

Actual written meaning:

   To you I wish to give a shirt so new
   The best in lust to tear
   It [literally: she] was not sewn by needle or thread
   But crocheted of white silk 

Is there some kind of guideline of obscuring explicit meaning in translated lyrics? Since the original is not obscured and comparable English original texts probably are neither, I don't see the point.

85.225.36.137 (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

The guideline is that the full lyrics go to wikisource and should not appear here. Translations posted there need to be both published and in the public domain. Excerpts quoted in the context of the discussion in the article body can be given ad-hoc translations if necessary, within the scope of discussing the song based on published references (i.e. avoiding WP:SYNTH). --dab (𒁳) 08:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The introduced distinction between "you" and "thou" is not useful in an English translation, as this distinction is not something English speakers will understand. The great majority of people will understand "thou" to be old-fashioned only, and "you" to be current usage.84.51.156.163 (talk) 16:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Scope

Instead of treating a random version of a folksong as recorded in 1877, it would be much more WP:ENCyclopedic to make this about the "undines" topos in folklore, covering Melusine, Paracelsus, Undine and derived Romantic compositions as well as their reflection in folklore. The 1877 version is particularly atypical because of the "mountain troll", as all other versions seem to have either a wood-nymph or (most often) a water-nymph. --dab (𒁳) 14:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

No. This article is about the Swedish folk song "Herr Mannelig," which has become a staple of the Neofolk/Neomedieval music genre and is certainly notable enough to warrant its own article. There is a separate article about undines; that article deals with everything you are talking about here and more. There is not even an undine in the song "Herr Mannelig"; the song is about a "mountain troll," not an aquatic spirit. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)