Talk:Harmodius and Aristogeiton

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Comments[edit]

this article seems somewhat fixated on the homosexual relationship between these two people, the source cited on this page also gives evidence to support this, i feel this emphasis is wrong, yes it is mentioned that Harmodios has intimacy with men at a younger age, but that was something that was common in that day and age. The point of this story is the slaying of tyrants, not their personal love life.

When you become a registered Wikipedian and sign your edits, I will be happy to debate this question with you. Adam 03:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The final sentence of the article bothers me somewhat: "The fact that the statues of the Liberators were still being copied in Roman times shows the durability of their legend." From what I have learned of Roman-era art, it was common to commission older Greek works (statues esp.) to show one's affluence and sophistication. It seems just as likely that the story was only partially known by the owners, and flaunting their wealth was the deciding factor. Haki23 17:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The personal relationship between between Harmodios and Aristogeiton is recognised in the sources as an important explanation for the assassination, furthermore the dishonoring of Harmodios's sister would not have occurred if Hipparchos had not sought revenge for being spurned. In describing an important historical event, it is the duty of the historian to include, if possible, reasons or motives for such events, thus I see no "fixation" on their personal relationship in this report. However, the last section "Importance to the pederastic tradition" does seem a little overblown, besides lacking coherence between its first and second parts. I would suggest a little more conciseness and reorganisation there.Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the meaning of tyranny in ancient Greece:

I am not sure that this line isn't inadvertantly a little misleading:

"Peisistratus is usually called a tyrant, but the Greek word tyrannos does not mean a cruel and despotic ruler, merely one who took power by force."

I'm not sure that is entirely true. I think there was a sense that this way of seizing power was not the most honorable and I think it was was often ridiculed. Though it does seem to be used with a neutral meaningg too. It is more a synonym for the Greek word despot than the greek word monarch or the word for worthy ruler. How does Thucydides use it overall? And the early fragments? Does Herodotus use it at all? Thanks. Charva (talk) 19:08, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the article is rediculous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.14.188 (talk) 20:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whitewashed[edit]

In ironic contrast to the first comment in the above section, the relationship between the two of them is now so downplayed that you already have to know what certain Greek terms mean in order to detect it, and even then it's mentioned only in passing. It is NOT merely incidental: their relationship had everything to do with why they acted in concert and indeed why Arsitogeiton was moved to act at all, as the one clear (albeit in Greek) reference to their relationship suggests. Splendid victory here on the part of reactionaries who want to whitewash homosexuals from history. 192.31.106.34 (talk) 03:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Skolion[edit]

The translation given here of the skolion on Harmodius and Aristogeiton may have been judged the most faithful in Victorian England, but it is loose, fairly impenetrable to a modern reader and potentially misleading. The first line, for example: "In myrtles veil'd will I the falchion wear" (ἐν μύρτου κλαδὶ τὸ ξίφος φορήσω). κλαδὶ literally means "branch," not "veil." What is a "falchion" and is it really a better translation of ξίφος than "sword"? Is it obvious to a reader of the English, as it is in the Greek, that it is the sword, not "I", that is covered up? On the other hand, it does rhyme... What can be done? Furius (talk) 19:14, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The cite for the claim that it's the most faithful translation dates to the 1850s: there's another 70 years worth of potential for out-of-copyright translations after that! That stalwart of copyright-free translations, Perseus, has the following:

X.
I'll wreathe my sword in myrtle bough,
The sword that laid the tyrant low,
When patriots, burning to be free,
To Athens gave equality.

XI.
Harmodius, hail! though reft of breath,
Thou ne'er shalt feel the stroke of death,
The happy heroes' isles shall be
The bright abode allotted thee.

XII.
I'll wreathe the sword in myrtle bough,
The sword that laid Hipparchus low,
When at Minerva's adverse fane
He knelt, and never rose again.

XIII.
While Freedom's name is understood,
You shall delight the wise and good;
You dared to set your country free,
And gave her laws equality.

That's still a bit antiquated, but seems at least clearer than the current translation to me. Also worth noting that according to the modern Loeb translation of Athenaeus, these are four separate skolia, rather than the single skolion they are currently presented as in the article. (And I'm side-eyeing the fact that "skolion" is glossed as "hymn" – usually skolia are described as drinking songs!) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:03, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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