Talk:Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Carl Schachter

I'm not certain this text:

  • Schachter, Carl, Counterpoint in Composition: The Study of Voice Leading. Columbia University Press, 1990. ISBN 023107039X

is a representative text in connection with Palestrina. (see references section) I would say it's a desciption of 18th century cpt and later, rather than 16th, although in the final secion some relevant examples are discussed. In the treatment of the species however there are some major deviations from the 16th dentury style. I recommend deleting this title. MilesD3

Go ahead. I don't remember who put it there (I've never used that particular book; I mainly know the Fux and the Jeppesen). Antandrus (talk) 22:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's a great book, worth studying, but it's more like a study of Schenkerian counterpoint. Not much of a historic account. MilesD3

Fux

Another problematic text is the "Gradus". Notwithstanding its historic significance, it has a great number of stylistic errors in it, and should therefore not be recommended as a reliable description of Palestrinian CPT. MilesD3 19:40, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Link from 'Palestrina'

Hi, I tried to search for Palestrina by simply entering 'Palestrina' in Wikipedia's search, but it only came up with the actual town in Italy. Does anyone know how to create a disambiguation page that can allow one to choose one from the other?FRM SYD 05:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right that we should have such a page; actually it already does exist; at the top of the article for Palestrina (the town), there is a "disambiguation link" statement (in italics), that directs one to Palestrina (disambiguation). See Wikipedia:Disambiguation, the subsection on "Disambiguation pages/Page naming conventions/Primary topic" for a rationale of when to use this methodology (article on topic with "primary meaning" is the "main" article, linking to a disambiguation page with "(disambiguation)" qualifier in the title.) Cheers, Lini 11:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Date of birth

Someone seems to be very sure of his date of birth. Over 800 sites claim he was born in 1524, and about 1,000 claim he born in 1526. From among those that agree that the year is 1525, this site:

claims it was between 3rd February 1525 and 2nd February 1526, and these websites:

share that range. Would somebody like to justify the certainty over the date 4th March? Ogg 08:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have the capability of adding a sample of Palestrina's work to this page? I think it would be useful and appropriate, but I don't know how to do it myself 71.62.27.199 (talk) 21:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)Patrick Bentley

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a pretty nice article, but I have some issues with the musicology section, and it could use some more discussion over the uncertainty of his birthdate (implied by the date range in the lead, and mentioned on the talk page here). My detailed review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 17:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, I was kicking around the idea of rewriting this article. (Does anyone else watch this page?) The biography can be hugely expanded, and the works described in greater detail, genre by genre, such as in Josquin des Prez. Except for a big slab I added in 2004, it seems to have grown by accretion of minor edits. This is a very important composer and I think he needs a better, more thorough article. Antandrus (talk) 18:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
You know, I got wrapped up in my dislike of the musicology language that I forgot to sample for more scholarship. Given his importance (and especially his alleged contemporary popularity), I do find it a bit odd that more isn't known and said about his life. The Life section isn't that much longer than the same section of pages on relatively obscure figures. Magic♪piano 18:18, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Problems with links

external link marked 'Listen to a free recording of Palestrina's Sicut Cervus' is 404 not found, link '# Listen to free recordings of songs from Umeå Akademiska Kör' may be free but a password is needed. I think that's a mistake. I'll let that site know. 78.149.129.27 (talk) 18:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
==Composers Project Assessment of Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina: 2009-01-26==

This is an assessment of article Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

  • ok, although discrepancies about his birthdate should be discussed

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • ok

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • ok

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

  • ok

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

  • Some issues; see summary.

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

  • I would expect sound samples of so important and widely-known a composer to be present.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

  • Article has references; few inline citations. This is problematic due to peacock terms; see summary.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

  • ok

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

===Summary=== This is a pretty good article. The coverage of his life and description of his musical style are both good; where I have issues are with the words of appreciation. Some specific problems:

  • Scholarship of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries tends to retain the view that Palestrina was a strong and refined composer, representing a summit of technical perfection

This is classic weasel-wording; which scholars, give examples of their language, please.

  • no composer of the sixteenth century has had such an edifice of myth and legend built around him.

This is a tease; I have no idea what sorts of myths and legends exist about him, and how they developed. The following sentences imply that someone wrote some, but I never really learn what they are. Saying he was the "Saviour of Church Music" is a start, but I have no clue that/how/why church music was in decline before he showed up, which takes the sting out of the claim.

  • Palestrina was immensely famous in his day

This is peacock; no evidence is given that this was the case. (I'm not disagreeing that it's likely to be true, mind you.) For example, evidence of other Renaissance composer's popularity in and shortly after their life has been given by pointing out how widely published his works were.

On a more general note about the musicological history, it might work better if it was presented a little more chronologically; currently there is 19th-century commentary followed by the assertions of contemporary fame.

If editors are interested in raising the article for a formal review (FA or GA), the article will require more inline citations. Article is B-class. Magic♪piano 17:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:51, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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