Talk:Giocangga

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Untitled[edit]

This is a summary that I've made of an article written by Nicholas Wade. You can find the actual article at this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/01/science/01manc.html?ex=1288501200&en=dfcce04f66944a7a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Scientists Link a Prolific Gene Tree in the Manchu Conquerors of China Summary By Katie Ceas

In this article written by Nicholas Wade, he talks about geneticists that have been studying a similar Y chromosome found in men all over Northern China. The reason why this is such a discovery is because this Y chromosome was shared by a Manchu ruler who lived approximately 500 years ago. “At least 1.6 million men now share this Manchu Y chromosome across East Asia,” says Chris Tyler-Smith, the head of a group of English and Chinese geneticists. The amount of children one leader sired was probably due to the number of concubines the Manchu leaders were able to keep. By calculating the number of mutations of the Y chromosomes in various men, Tyler-Smith says that the common ancestor of this lineage was probably the king Giocangga. However, due to lack of evidence, the results of the research can not be proven and therefore are not made official.

Temple name[edit]

When was this Manchu ruler assigned a Chinese temple name? Just curious. Bathrobe (talk) 02:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious[edit]

I know the Beeb article ("1.5m Chinese 'descendants of one man'") says so but the statement that "the average Chinese man at the time of Giocangga would only have around 20 descendants living today" is ridiculous. Off by five or six orders of magnitude. Read this. — AjaxSmack 01:36, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You don't understand the claim you are attacking. The statement is about male-line descendants. You can ballpark the average by dividing the number of Chinese (and presumably Manchurian) men alive in Giocangga's time into the number alive now. Qemist (talk) 07:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your reasoning technically produces an inflated "average", but for various reasons there would be huge inequality. Especially in terms of surviving paternal lines, likely only a fraction of the men alive then make up the vast majority of surviving lines today. And as demonstrated individuals like this are responsible for hugely disproportionate fractions of those surviving lines inflating the "average" for everyone else. So saying the "average man" is a bit misleading, even if only one man was responsible for all of the surviving lines your calculation would still yield the same result. It's a bit meaningless and also misleading. What would be relevant is the median, but I don't think there's an easy way to calculate that. Blight55 (talk) 21:25 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Giocangga Y chromosome DNA found in several ethnic minorities, but not found in Han Chinese[edit]

Giocangga Y chomosome DNA was found in "Xibe, Outer Mongolians, Inner Mongolians, Ewenki, Oroqen, Manchu, and Hezhe" males and number around 1 million people. Their ancestor was Nurhaci's grandfather Giocangga, whose descendants made up the Qing dynasty nobility. But the Y chromosome was not found in the general Han Chinese population.

The Y chromosome cluster is specifically C3c, part of the General Haplogroup C-M217, which Genghis Khan's lineage is a part of, although the Manchu Aisin Gioro Y chromosome is part of a different cluster than Genghis Khan's

The reason it spread among these specific minority groups, but not among the Han Chinese population, is because the Qing Manchu nobility was concentrated specifically in the ethnically Manchu Eight Banners and not in the Mongolian and Han Eight Banners, and the specific ethnic groups which made up the Manchu Eight banners were "Manchu, Mongolian, Daur, Oroqen, Ewenki, Xibe".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1285168/

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/pdf/S0002-9297(07)63394-1.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707633941

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/23

https://web.archive.org/web/20150326142810/http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/38502-the-11-fathers-of-asia800-million-modern-men-are-descended-from-a-handful-of-ancient-leaders-inc/

https://web.archive.org/web/20150326065103/http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/37918-northern-chinese-vs-mongolians/

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HilhOYFnPb8J:www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/37918-northern-chinese-vs-mongolians/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

20:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)