Talk:Folsom Prison Blues

A-side or B-side?

I see several sources including the main Johnny Cash singles chronology article on wikipedia that show So Doggone Lonesome as the A-Side, I'm trying to fix the Infobox information and would like some definitive answers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gimpboy76 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Untitled

"shot a man in reno just to watch him die" - i don't know what others will think of this, but i was just listening to the ledbelly song "duncan and brady", which predates this song and would probably have been known to cash, as that whole generation of song writers were in awe of ledbelly, and it has a very similar line ,

"Twinkle, twinkle, little star 'Long came Brady in his shinin' car Got a mean look right in his eye Gonna shoot somebody just to see him die (!) He been on the job too long."

I know cash has explained his inspiration for the line, but there seems to be an obvious connection to a well known song cash probaly knew. i'm not accusing cash of having ripped it off or anything, i see it all as aprt of the folk/blues/country/ creative process, its just an interesting connection - any thoughs ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.54.229 (talk) 08:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The Keb Mo' comment about social justice is incredibly relative and unsubstantiated. It has no place here, and in fact in interviews Keb Mo has actually stated that he changed the lyrics because he thought them too harsh. Rather than somehow adding a dimension to a song if anything he took a classically rebellious track and sanitized it. Here is the evidence: http://www.rogerwallace.com/kebno.html Keb Mo states "that turns my stomach." So, someone git rid of this speculative nonsense. I'd do it myself but I'm not clear on the editing policies and I don't want to go against the regulations, I know it can be very specific. Also, in a documentary about Johnny Cash there is an interview with someone who talks about having to convince Cash to let him edit out the cheering section during the "Reno" line on the live album. This would seem to go against what you have on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.51.29 (talk) 05:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just deconstructing creative license here, but... If he shot a man in Reno, Nevada, how did he end in Folsom State Prison in California? Wouldn't he either be in a Nevada prison or a Federal prison? --UsaSatsui 19:31, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

The Reno-Folsom issue isn't the only geographical anomaly in the song. Any train heading for San Antonio, either Texas or any of the San Antonios in the US, passing within earshot of Folsom Prison is seriously lost! OldVato (talk) 18:09, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Well you are probably right about creative license. Consider these two things - Reno, Nevada is very close to the California state line (see Image:NVMap-doton-Reno.png), so this ficticious murder probably occured near Reno (in California). Also, Cash, in 1953 was an uneducated young man from rural Arkansas who was in the Air Force stationed in West Germany who probably didn't know much about the legal system. —preceding unsigned comment by Rogerd (talk • contribs) 15:52, July 17, 2005

Perhaps after committing the murder in Reno, he fled across the state line and was arrested after a shoot-out with California law officers. Jess Cully (talk) 00:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it also possible that he killed a man in Reno, got away with it, and was imprisoned for another crime? And that he hangs his head and cries because he knows what a bad man he is, that he "can't be free"? Or maybe the syllables just fit the melody. It's said that Simon & Garfunkel originally wanted to say "where have you gone Mickey Mantle?," in "Mrs. Robinson." But "Joe DiMaggio," a sports hero of their fathers' generation, fit the rhyme better. Or so I've heard. [user: Thomconn]

He could have used Lodi, a city in California which scans exactly the same as Reno :D Jess Cully 13:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Who cares? I don't see any reason this trivia it should be in the article. :] --Sam Francis 21:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about a work of fiction written by a young, relatively uneducated man from a small town in Arkansas in the 1950's. He was probably geographically challenged. --rogerd 23:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe he was just looking for words that rhymed or flowed well together. Too much is being read into this. This is left-brainers trying to apply logic to right-brained thinking. Trust me: it doesn't work. Wahkeenah 01:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Two of you just lifted ideas without attribution from this page. That's plagiarism. I don't believe "left/right brain" jargon applies to critiquing a few simple lyrics about prison or why this should be above our comprehension. FYI, musical notation is right-brained because of its mathematical component but that applies only to the reading and writing of sheet music. Lyrics and melody fall under the province of the left brain, the artistically creative side. As for this topic being "trivial," I think we can decide that for ourselves. At least we didn't paraphrase the ideas of others as though they were our own. [user: Thomconn]

Ummm. Excuse me, but isn't the "Right" side of the brain the creative side and the left side is the order and control side? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HowesR1 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I personally think the protagonist murdered an human cloned man on the Saturn Moon of "Reno" and jumped in his space ship and escaped to California where he was arrested for landing his ship in a city park and sentenced to life in a state prison. It's all right there in the song! —Preceding unsigned comment added by HowesR1 (talk • contribs) 18:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

AND - The State of NEVADA is not mentioned anywhere in the song. Could be the county of Reno Junction, California, or any one of a half dozen other Reno town and counties in the lower forty-eight states. This whole "anomaly" is a joke. It's a song about a fictitious person. Get over yourself!HowesR1 (talk) 16:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a San Antonio in California!

song lyrics copyvio in this article?

Is it a copyright violation to have the entire lyrics of the song printed here? Joyous | Talk 00:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I've read that it's permissable to quote "two bars" of a song or whatever, without permission or violation. A few months ago, I checked out the official U.S. Copyright Office web site (to check on public-domain movies) and the site clearly states that no such rules exist. That is, no law states how many verses or bars or paragraphs can be safely lifted without fear of legal action. The only safe course is to always get permission from the publisher for the specific quote you wish to use. I don't see the "entire lyrics" here, so maybe they've been removed since your post. [user: Thomconn]

NYT charges plagiarism

Sharon Waxman of the New York Times states that Folsom Prison Blues was plagiarized from a Gordon Jenkins song, "Crescent City Blues".[1] Waxman cites the same Streissguth book that's cited in this article. Anyone know about this? Is it accepted fact, or a disputed allegation? There's nothing about it in Wikipedia. If it's true it seems like a pretty big deal, given how influential the song is. --Allen 07:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is pretty widely accepted and reported in many sources (Streissguth, Turner, etc.). I added a couple sentences addressing this. David Koller 13:36, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Just to amplify on your answer, doesn't Streissguth mention that Jenkins (who worked with such greats as Sinatra) knew about the plagiarism for several years--but did not demand reparations until the enormous success of the "Live at Folsom Prison" album? If memory serves, it was a settlement to the "tune" of $100,000. [user: Thomconn]

ITs a song...

"A disputed allegation"?? The melody, changes, chord structure and many of the lyrics are identical. It would be a mathematical impossibility that all of this is coincidental.{75.69.241.91 (talk) 20:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC))

Concerning the Crescent City Blues issue, "Borrowed many of the same lyrics" is an understatement and a misrepresentation. It wasn't "many"; it was all the lyrics. There are several lines, even entire stanzas, which are exactly identical to the Jenkins lyrics and in the case of the remaining lines only enough words are changed needed to change the story. The article should say something to the effect that Cash, "adapted lines and copied complete stanzas of the song Crescent City Blues. BashBrannigan (talk) 04:10, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Taken in the context of folk music and blues, what Cash did is no different than what had been done for centuries and decades in the 1900s. Matchbox Blues and Matchbox led me to this site http://heartonastick.blog-city.com/matchbox01.htm that talks about this in great detail. Escaping the Delta about Robert Johnson, and a WHOLE lot more, is another source to get insight into this phenom. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

You obviously know infinitely more about this topic than I do, and it wouldn't surprise me if you were right, however, you'll need a reference in order to say "it was common practice at the time." The link you gave on this page is a blog and likely not sufficient. Also, as I'm sure you're aware, it was not unknown in those days for white artists to "borrow" from black artist without any financial compensation. Surely, that was not OK? BashBrannigan (talk) 22:25, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Glitch?

Perhaps it's a glitch in my browser (or rather browsers, since I tried to download the page in IE, Opera and Firefox), but the currently displayed version of the page does not reflect the latest revision. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 07:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

removed lyrics... clear copyright violation

The article contained the complete lyrics. While the use of short quotes for the purpose of critical analysis is allowed, the non-critical wholesale copying of lyrics in the article seems to be a clear violation of copyright. I thus removed the lyrics. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Johnny Cash - Fulsom Prison Blues (Live).ogg

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BetacommandBot 23:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

MP3 Tag

Winamp 5.5's Auto Tag feature insists on identifying versions of this song sung by Johnny Cash as being from the Reverend Horton Heat album "Holly Roller".

Moving trivia to talk

In popular culture

• In the motion picture When We Were Kings, Muhammad Ali mocks the song when asked about the difference between musical genres, and he calls the song "white people's music".
• In The Simpsons episode Brother from Another Series, Krusty the Klown performs a 'prison special' at Springfield Penitentiary dressed in black. He sings the following lyrics to the tune of "Folsom Prison Blues": I slugged some jerk in Tahoe/They gave me one-to-three/My high-priced lawyer sprung me on a technicality/I'm just visiting Springfield Prison/I get to sleep at home tonight.
• In the webcomic xkcd by Randall Munroe, the "I killed a man in Reno, just to watch him die" lyric is parodied, with the characters coming up with their own variations (examples: "I killed a man in Reno, him and all his succubi", "I killed a man in Reno, because they canceled Firefly", "I killed a man in Reno, and a bunch more in My Lai.").
• In sketch in the comedy series Kids in the Hall, Dave Foley says, "I once shot a man just to watch him die, then I got distracted and missed it. Oh my friends tried to describe it to me, but it just isn't the same."
• In one episode of Wings, Joe says "I once shot a man in Reno just to watch him die" in an attempt to intimidate someone.
• An episode of The CW series Supernatural was named after this song.
• In an episode of Veronica Mars, Veronica mocks a task where she's asked to give someone two truths and a lie about herself by saying "I'm Veronica, I'm from Neptune, I once shot a man in Reno just to watch him die."
• In the film Little Nicky, when the character Adrian is threatening to push Nicky's girlfriend, Valerie, in the way of an oncoming train, he cups a hand to his ear and says "I hear a train a-coming.", seemingly mimicking the opening line of the song.
• In the film Starsky & Hutch, when the duo enters the bikers bar it can be heard playing.

• In an episode of Gilmore Girls, a community service roadside cleanup worker asks Rory what she did to deserve the punishment, to which Rory replies "I shot a man in Reno."
• The Beastie Boys sample Johnny Cash's line in the lyric "I shot a man in Brooklyn - 'Just to watch him die,'" on the track "Hello Brooklyn" on their album Paul's Boutique.
• In an episode of 21 Jump Street, Tom Hanson is in a jail cell, and asks what a fellow prisoner was there for; "Let me guess? You shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die?".
• In the I'm Not That Guy episode of How I Met Your Mother, Lily tries to explain how she can afford expensive clothes by saying: "I steal. I'm a criminal. I once shot a man just to watch him die".
• Beat Happening paraphrases the killing line in the song "Revolution Come and Gone" as "got a girl in Reno just to watch her cry."

Prisoners cheering the "Reno" line

^{Heading added by Wank Hilliams (talk) 10:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)}

The "whoops" at the Reno Line were not edited in. There is a recording a reporter made sitting in the audience and you can hear it there too. I think the "whooow" has been shouted by Cash himself as he often did. Just my opinion. I am sure Streissguth is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.188.204 (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I've seen (twice) a new CBS News piece about the new Cash biography by Robert Hilburn. In it, it is reported that Hilburn was present at the Folsom Prison concert (perhaps he is the reporter that 89.244.188.204 refers to above) and Hilburn says the prisoners cheered this line. But perhaps his memory is faulty and he heard these cheers only in the commercially released recording (which he no doubt has listened to dozens, if not hundreds, of times by now). Wank Hilliams (talk) 10:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

removed speculation on jurisdiction

I have removed the following paragraph:

The song does not clarify why the protagonist is serving time in a California State Prison - as opposed to a Federal Penitentiary. Controversy among listeners exists over why the protagonist is serving time in California due to the song's lack of information about which place called "Reno" is referenced in this story of fiction. The simplest explanation is that "Reno" most probably indicates Reno Junction, California, as no other explanation seems to explain the situation. Some have noted that there are places called Reno, Nevada, or El Reno, Oklahoma, and the county of Reno, Kansas.

• Taking the silliest thing first: Obviously, Reno means Reno, the one in Nevada. Scrounging for these other place names containing the word Reno is blatant original research.
• Why isn't the singer in a Nevada prison? Because Cash needed it to be in Folsom, and "Reno" sounded good.
• And if we're going to get this concerned about accuracy, there's no reason to think the shooter would be in a federal prison. Few homicides are federal cases, and far fewer were in 1955. The only plausible way this would have been a federal case is if Cash's protagonist had kidnapped the victim and taken him across state lines.

Now, it is a slightly jarring aspect of the song, and it would be nice to acknowledge that, but it needs to be done better, preferably with sources. --Trovatore (talk) 01:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Possibly because Cash was in Landsberg, Germany, when he wrote the song, he was unable to contact his family's attorneys to clarify the jurisdictional issues. Of course, he should have substituted "Berkeley" for "Reno" as soon as Elvis Presley pointed out his blooper, but clearly Cash was rather careless about legal technicalities, and possibly aggrieved that Presley had plagiarised the song with "Jailhouse Rock". This is why I prefer to base my understanding of the law on Bob Marley songs.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:55, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Possible simple answers to the jurisdiction question

An interesting aspect of the song is that the singer "shot a man in Reno." Reno is in the State of Nevada; Folsom Prison is just outside of the city of Folsom, California.

Prisoners convicted of a crime in one state may end up serving their time in another, especially if there are concerns about overcrowding, safety, escape attempts, etc. It's also possible that the murderer is a repeat offender, and is actually incarcerated for another offense. 108.246.206.139 (talk) 21:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps he used a sniper rifle from the Californian side of the border.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:57, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The Nevada/California conundrum

This is a frequent talking point with regard to the song; it doesn't seem right to have no mention at all of it in the article. While posts on a message board might not satisfy some people as a 'reliable source', they are surely evidence that people talk about the conundrum and suggest various explanations for it. Jess Cully (talk) 09:55, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I concur that the conundrum must belong somewhere in the wikimedia world, if not this article then elsewhere.

This is something I've encountered wikipedia-wide. Namely, what do you do about information that might be interesting or useful, despite being a little on the OR/non-notable side. It's definitely not up to "highest quality" standards, but I'm not sure that deleting it makes for a better article.

I think think the ultimate solution will probably come in some form of technology that allows us different 'spaces' to create supplemental content-- information that is less-notable, or texts that are non-neutral-pov. --Alecmconroy (talk) 18:23, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Cover versions

I would recommend that the entire unreferenced list of cover versions be deleted. It's been an influential song and lots of people have covered it, but the covers are not more important than Cash's version, and that list is entirely too long. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 02:16, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

"The Reno Line" and "Train Song" references

Drive-by comment regarding these (and no, nothing to do with jurisdiction in Reno!). The lead mentions that this song is an example of a Train Song, but there's nothing in the body to explain why, or what makes it a train song. Likewise, the article mentions "the Reno line", several times, but doesn't say what that line is. (I do see that both of these references were removed at some point in the first page of the article history.) Those of us familiar with the song will understand the meaning, but someone unfamiliar will be left confused; if they want to understand further, they will have to go elsewhere... not the goal we're looking for here, I imagine. What says the page? Rails (talk) 22:12, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

• Bueller? Bueller? Shall I assume nobody has an opinion either way? And that I won't get reverted if I add some explanatory text similar to what someone already removed a few months ago? Rails (talk) 22:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Band Personnel

I came here to find out who performed each instrument/part on the original recording. Alas, that information is not here. --67.176.133.158 (talk) 15:38, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I've now added those details. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Similarity between the songs "Folsom Prison Blues" and "That's All Right Momma"

For some time now I have noticed a strong similarity in the melodies of the two songs "Folsom Prison Blues" by Johnny Cash and "That's All Right Momma" by Elvis Presley. I had simply assumed that both songs had been authored by the same songwriter. Now I have learned to my surprise that this was not the case. Which leads me to wonder whether there were ever any accusations of plagiarism made in connection with either of these songs. from Bill Bannon

As the article says, "Folsom Prison Blues" was based on "Crescent City Blues" by Gordon Jenkins, which in turn was based on a 1930s piano tune of the same title by Little Brother Montgomery. Arthur Crudup's "That's All Right Mama" came from the same blues tradition. I doubt if anyone is able to pinpoint who "wrote" the melody of either tune - they emerged from the folk music tradition as expressed by now-anonymous black musicians. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

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