Talk:Flag of Hong Kong/Archive 1

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Former flags of Hong Kong

Flag of Hong Kong (Jan 26 1841 - 1870), (1870 - 1876), (1876 - 1910), (1910 - July 27 1959), (July 27 1959 - June 30 1997), (Source)

Flag during Japanese Occupation

The "Rising Sun" flag, i.e. Japanese Military Flag, seems to be the official flag of Hong Kong during Japanese Occupation, doesn't it? If yes, could anyone tell me if there is the Flag in wikipedia? Many thanks. :-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 5 July 2005 14:07 (UTC)

Oh, I've checked up some primary sources (so you can see the poster in the article), and the fact is the current flag of Japan was used in that time. :) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 6 July 2005 14:37 (UTC)
The SAR flag has nothing to do with the mainland professor Xiao Hong. He've just participated in the deign competition but on the internet as he introduced himself as "participated in the design of HKSAR flag" (曾參予香港區旗的設計) in the sence that he joined the competition. However later it became a myth, spread on the internet, that he "designed" the flag. I've presonally interviewed Ho Tao and he said when he was in the committee of SAR flag design no proposal was satitsfied. Then later when he walked in a park he was inspirited by the shape of flowers and created the draft of the design which later became the official HKSAR flag. It's nothing to do with Xiao Hong. Chungpui from Chinese wiki.221.220.241.226 15:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
...Ho was chosen to be one of the initial judges to pick Hong Kong's new Special Administrative Region flag from more than 7,000 designs. The Shanghai-born artist recalled that some of the designs had been rather funny: "one had a hammer and sickle on one side and a dollar sign on the other." Despite the fact that six designs made the final cut, all were rejected. Ho and two others were then asked to submit proposals. Looking for inspiration, he wandered into the garden and picked a bauhinia flower. Ho noticed the five petals were not symmetrical, and they also had a winding, dynamic pattern. And Hong Kong was surely dynamic as he said.... I know that. This information adopted from Asiaweek goes along with what you said. :) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:49, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Edit War: National Flags template

As a sign of peace and courtesy, writings in this article about the status of the Hong Kong flag (if it is a national flag) will be held up from any further edits before Huaiwei and some wikipedians from Hong Kong can reach consensus. Deryck C. 16:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. If any one can put forth evidence of any governmental or official source specifying that this flag is a "national flag", I shall drop my case.--Huaiwei 18:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Which it doesn't. This is the regional flag of Hong Kong, which the article states repeatedly. Arguments about other colonies, dependencies, etc are irrelevant. SchmuckyTheCat 19:24, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

IMHO it should be dealt with by exploring the applicability and usage of template:nationalflags, and the definition of "national" for the usage of this template, which should be done at the talk page of the template. — Instantnood 19:50, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

My stand is negative in this case. As on the "list of national flags" linked from the template, all those flags are flags of sovereign states. Therefore there is no "definition of national" dispute on this article as that on the HKCL article does. Deryck C. 06:17, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Very likely, I buy Deryck's point. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 14:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
In that case flag articles such as Aruba's, the Faroe Islands', etc., will have to have the template removed. This will better be settled at template talk:nationalflags. — Instantnood 19:44, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
Ehh.. it was on July 16 the list of national flags was renamed list of sovereign state flags (and gallery of national flags was renamed gallery of sovereign state flags), based on User:Philip Baird Shearer's comment made on July 11 [1]. Interestingly the content of template:nationalflags, and the title of the list of national coats of arms wasn't changed accordingly. Some time last year there was actually a debate on whether the flag of Quebec should be included [2]. — Instantnood 19:59, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
As the template has changed, the use of this template on the flag of HK article bacame unsuitable and I think we've reached a concensus: keep the template removed. Deryck C. 04:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't think there's any consensus. The template wasn't changed. It was the titles of two articles that had been changed, which was based on User:Philip Baird Shearer's opinion on a talk page. — Instantnood 08:22, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
The template itself didn't change, but what the template links you to changed. In other words, the function of the template changed and it's no more suitable for use on this article. Deryck C. 11:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
You're right, but I did not find any consensus was reached before the renaming took place. — Instantnood 12:53, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, and I am glad common sense prevails. We are not here to pick on procedures, but on the contributions of content to wikipedia. From what I perceive, it appears to be a work which was not well executed right to the end, and not implimented wikipedia-wide, so since we discovered this, we should be helping to correct the disparaty and complete the job instead of replicating existing errors. That said, please do note that there are indeed some room for "flexibility". For example, The flag of the Faroe Islands was recognised as a "national flag" officially with the blessings of Denmark. I hadent looked through every single entry, but this appears to be the only exception so far, and might be forthy of more debate and research later. I am not so sure if any other entry is worth this consideration, and thankfully, Quebec isnt using this template either.--Huaiwei 12:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
In fact the template did change. At least, the target of the "list of national flags" changed. Deryck C. 13:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
The target was changed because the old title now serves as a redirect to the current one. (And by the way I won't say our disagreement here so far is a conflict ;-) .) — Instantnood 14:01, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
So will you put the template back? If you say no, a concensus is reached and this conversation finishes ^&^ Deryck C. 14:19, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I support putting it back. But if I really do so somebody will promptly take it off, possibly leading to a new round of edit war. :-D — Instantnood 14:32, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
But what back into where?--Huaiwei 15:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Then I suppose it's better leave it like this. Do you agree? Deryck C. 14:38, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
So...that means we're back to square one, huh? :-/ -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Welcome to a live demonstration of the handling of disagreements by less-then-gentle men. Or shall I say boys instead?--Huaiwei 15:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
(response to Deryck's comment at 14:38, July 21) I'd prefer rolling back to the version before all these disputes took place. :-) — Instantnood 15:39, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
Then I shall shut my mouth until you guys reach a concensus - after all the problem became philosophical. Deryck C. 17:12, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Only an idiot will fail to realise that instantnood "supports" a roll back to a previous version so long that it contains something he wants. Try finding a situation in which he would also call for a roll back in a situation contrary to his demands. Duh. ;)--Huaiwei 07:20, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Appreciation

I dun really understand your argument (forgive my stupidity), but, woo, see what a lovely article! how can u guys produce such a great entry? 正 :-D --K.C. Tang 05:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The credits go to Jerry. :-) — Instantnood 16:47, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Jerry. However somebody gave him a barnstar but he's not quite willing to take it. Deryck C. 02:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
The article is great, but certainly needs some cleaning up. For one thing, the spellings are inconsistent. --K.C. Tang 15:17, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Problems faced on copyediting

What do the following sentences mean?

As regards the side of the regional flag with the pole standing on its right, it must be produced in that order.
Each petal bears a red 5-pointed star and a red style.

More problems coming up. Deryck C. 15:44, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

A style is a part of a flower. It refers to the thin curved line on the petal. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:54, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

...with the flag draped tastefully from it.

Tastefully? Have I ever heard of an edible flag? Deryck C. 13:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

When both flags are displayed at the same time or side by side, the Regional Flag shall be smaller than the National Flag.

I wonder if the picture on the right of this sentence is a pictorial explanation of this sentence. Deryck C. 13:12, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

...shall mark the beginning of the circle... I wonder if a circle has a beginning?

I also wanna ask if the "rules of RF display" applies to flying it in HK only. Deryck C. 13:23, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Of course. SchmuckyTheCat 17:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
You mean outside HK, the regional flag can be bigger then the national flag?--Huaiwei 19:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, see the Men's Table Tennis Match in the last Olympic Games in Athens...I don't think the HKSAR flag is smaller than that of the PRC... -- Jerry Crimson Mann 19:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
At international events the size and the dimensions of all the flags are standardised. Perhaps except that of Nepal. — Instantnood 19:51, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah..but I was talking anout a bigger flag. :D--Huaiwei 20:33, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
How about the "drape tastefully" thing and the "beginning of a circle" thing? Deryck C. 14:35, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The beginning of a circle! Ah, Deryck, u've become a philosopher! As if we were talking about God who is

une sphère dont le centre est partout et la circonférence nulle part. - Blaise Pascal

And the tasteful flag! What an idea! We wonder which country's flag has the best taste - that of the HK one won't be too nice, I guess. But be serious: the content and organization is great; but a lot of proofreading and copy-editing are needed; after polishing I am confident that the entry will become a featured article! :D --K.C. Tang 19:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Photos of table flags

My friend Ernie allowed me to upload these photos relating to HKSAR table flags. All are under the GFDL license. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:33, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

He also took photos of a flag raising ceremony. He is also willing to release it under GFDL. Do yall wish to use those photos too? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:38, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

FAC

Some time ago Jerry said that he'll put this article onto FAC. But when? No more responses have been heard. Deryck C. 06:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I just think we can do that, but need to make sure everything is taken care of. Most of the pictures we have are copyright OK, though placement could be an issue. The references have been started, which I think they are good enough. Personally, it should go up for FAC. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
So will you vote support? Deryck C. 07:03, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes. I worked on a bunch of FA's and I know this article has what it takes. If it does not, then I will help fix it to make it happen. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 07:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm doing it now. Deryck C. 07:08, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

"The two sides of the regional flag are identical"

What does this statement mean? It sounds a bit ambiguous. I sort of imagine this: If I look at the flag, the flower is "left handed". If I flip the flag around, it's also "left handed". Is this what is intended? It seems counterintuitive. I would expect the other side of the flag to be a mirror image of the first side... --HappyCamper 05:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Not every flag has a mirror obverse and reverse. The flag of Paraguay is the only national flag to feature a different front and back on their flag. While it is standard for most flags to have mirror obverse and reverses, we have to make it clear, since it is most likely codified in the Hong Kong Basic Law. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I'll add this bit to the article then. Thanks! --HappyCamper 05:33, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Your welcome. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Originally it reads Both sides of the regional flag come with the same shape, colour and bauhinia design. revert that if you think that is better. --K.C. Tang 09:18, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if the one side is a reflection of the other or identical to the other? Deryck C. 10:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

First paragraph of History needs some disambiguation?

The first paragraph of the history section mentions people such as the "Governor", "Colonial Secretary", and "Admiralty". I think it would be nice to find out who these people were. Surely they have names we can find somewhere? I think it might be best to refrain from capitalizing these words unless we find out who they are referring to specifcally. What do you think? --HappyCamper 05:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

The governor at that time was found to be Stubbs and his name was added to the paragraph. "Admiralty" is an organization instead of a person. (Admiral is a person instead). However, unluckily, the Colonial Secretary at that time is untraceable. Deryck C. 10:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the article should then mention how the history behind the flag of Hong Kong has some incomplete information which historians today still have not uncovered. I'll add this to the article then. --HappyCamper 15:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
What I mean, untraceable, is, I can't find the name of that person at the moment, but that should be possible if I visit Murray Tower. Deryck C. 05:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Coat of Arms?

The article seems to mention Hong Kong being issued a coat of arms. Which authority conferred this to the island? I assume it was the British, but perhaps we can find a reference for this? Initially, the article only referred to this as "arms" and I interpreted this as a "coat of arms". Was this what was intented? --HappyCamper 05:52, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

If your talking about the current emblem, I can get show you when. But if you are talking about the British Hong Kong arms, it came down from the College of Arms in London. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:58, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I'll add this to the article too. --HappyCamper 06:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Proper display and handling of the flag

In the section dealing with proper public display of the flag, it seems a bit too generic, as there is no mention of the "flag of Hong Kong". What do you think is the best way to deal with this? Perhaps just leaving it alone is best? Some of the material might better placed in an article which specifically deals with flag handling. Are the handling procedures any different from those of other countries? --HappyCamper 06:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

well, it could be the way to fold the HKSAR flag, it could be flown it is flown, how it is displayed with the Macau SAR flag. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:31, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I see. May we consider resectioning that large section, perhaps making entries with sub-sub-headings? --HappyCamper 06:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

edit

On 17 November 1923, the Governor replied to a question regarding white circles on colonial Blue Ensigns, the issue of concern being "the dark green of the Peak would be against the blue of the Ensign". The Colonial Office decided that the "dark green" writing at the border of the badge should consist of a series of tonal gradations from light blue, to light brown, and finally white. On 12 May 1924, the Governor penned that the badge in the Flag Book had ...for some years past differed from the flag....Flag, that was even less attractive than that in the Flag Book, would be changed to correspond to it.

can provide more context info for this paragraph?

Name of the governor provided. Deryck C. 10:22, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Indeed I don;t know what the paragraph wants to say. :( --K.C. Tang 12:33, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I reworded that paragraph...Originally it was something else, and it also didn't make sense to me :( See below --HappyCamper 15:10, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
On 17 November 1923, the Governor replied to a question about white circles on colonial Blue Ensigns "the dark green of the Peak would be against the blue of the Ensign". The Colonial Office decided that the "dark green" writing at the border of the badge should vary from light blue to light brown and white. On 12 May 1924, the Governor penned that the badge in the Flag Book "has for some years past differed from the flag." "Flag, that was even less attractive than that in the Flag Book, would be changed to correspond to it." --HappyCamper 15:10, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Just a note. Name of governors can be found in the article Governor of Hong Kong. Deryck C. 06:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Can check who penned this part? we should contact him/her to clarify, otherwise we should remove it, I suppose. --K.C. Tang 15:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
History source not always tell the exact names of people. Deryck C. 11:12, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Saffron stripe

What exactly is the saffron stripe on the flag supposed to do? Is that what we in the USA commonly call fringe (yellow tassle that is stiched to the flag)? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:24, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Wording

Second paragraph - should that be "formalised approval" or "formal approval"? Enochlau 10:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed it to your suggestion. I worded it somewhat ambiguously last time because it wasn't clear from what I read what sort of approval was received, other than that it was formal and institutionalised. --HappyCamper 00:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Somehow wordings can interchange each other. Deryck C. 00:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Desecration

Someone should summarise what this case is about and put it in the article before this article goes on the main page.  --  W  P Talk 01:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Official site link

The official site for this article dont even work anymore. What is the new url?--Huaiwei 17:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Really? But I can still visit the website. Which site are you referring? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 16:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Someone has already amended the link. Duh.--Huaiwei 17:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
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