Talk:Final Fantasy X/Archive 1

Random Questions

"There are a total of ten aeons in Final Fantasy X."

Should we really count the Magus Sisters as 3 aeons? It's only one summon spell, so I've always thought of them as a singular unit.

"A notable song is Suteki Da Ne, which has four versions."

Are the non-vocal versions really worth mentioning? The paragraph goes into essentially no detail on them after this one reference, and Uematsu has done multiple variation tracks on every important theme in the entire Final Fantasy series.

"He (Tetsuya Nomura) designed the characters in a manner similar to the way he designed the cast of Final Fantasy VIII."

Is this backed up by anything? And how did Nomura design the characters in FFVIII?

That's all for now. Hope somebody comes up with some answers. :D StellarFury 20:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I added an explanation of the Magus Sisters acting as one aeon, but I don't know enough to deal with the other issues you raise. Everyking 20:22, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Magus Sisters

I think they should be counted as three aeons, seeing as if one or two of them dies, the remaining one can continue on by itself. Also, what exactly is meant by "Anima has the most overdrive of them all"? I assume the writer meant something more like "Anima has the most powerful overdrive of all", which isn't necessarily true either, seeing as once you reach a certain level, everything does 99,999 damage.

But is it the most powerful under normal circumstances? I think so, although it has been a while. Anyway, feel free to edit mercilessly to improve wording or accuracy. I've fixed the Anima sentence. Everyking 20:09, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that the Magus Sisters' overdrive is the most powerful under non-maxed circumstances. I'll have to check it out.

The strongest Overdrive is infact anima, the magus sisters attack for a total of 499,994 (Thats with maxed stats) where as Anima attacks for just under 1,400,000. This is with Maxed stats (255 in everything) but will fluctuate dependent on "your" sphere grid nodes. - PiccoloNamemk

I agree that they should be counted as three aeons because they show up as three different aeons on the aeon screen. - Fringe

I can't find any definitive information on which overdrive attack is stronger, only that they both do massive non-elemental damage. - PiccoloNamek

Anima's overdrive has always been more powerful for me. ~krikkert

Actually, I believe that the Magus Sisters do like no damage at all. 18,000 was the highest that I got with their overdrive. There physical attacks did more damage then all three of their combined overdrive. Anima did 4X more than it did. - JnJ

I've powered the Magus Sisters up to where one of them deals 99,999 damage with a regular attack alone. Their Delta Attack has done the same. The aeon is only as powerful as the summoner. I recently finished the game and had Yuna as the most powerful member of the party. She had near all the white magic spells a select few, but powerful black magic spells, and all kinds of power. It was ridiculous. I beat Jecht in three attacks with the Magus Sisters. - Jim T

NPOV issues in Criticism section (Editorializing)

"Although storyline is the game's main focus, many critics believe that the game is centered solely on graphics, and believe that as a result the story was less than perfect; however, this is perhaps mostly due to the story being more complex and mature than the previous Final Fantasy games. Final Fantasy X is also the first in the Final Fantasy series to sport voice acting. Voice acting is the most controversial addition in the Final Fantasy series. Critics have complained about the voice acting in the English version of the game. Tidus, voiced by James Arnold Taylor in the English version, was supposed to be impulsive and energetic, but most of his dialogue lines are considered to have ended up sounding somewhat lackluster and Americanised. Hedy Burress's Yuna performance is likewise sometimes considered grating; many have accused her of attempting to synch her spoken dialogue with the CGI character's lips—which were programmed to speak, not English, but Japanese. (Most find no complaints with the rest of the cast, but Tidus and Yuna are the game's central characters.) Critics also panned the minigame Blitzball, based heavily on the Captain Tsubasa series of videogames."

As I see it, this is non-verifiable fanbase editorializing. The introduction is terrible to anyone who's not into the FFX internet mojo and should be rewritten into something encyclopedic instead of this. Harp Heaven 22:08, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I need someone to verify that the named "Final Fantasy X" was the code name for the N64 demo. I know this is hard to do as most searches will turn up FFX for the Ps2. To my knowledge, the SGI demo used fully rendered models, while an N64 demo used N64 level graphics (blocky, simple textures). So there is a distinction between the two. I'm lacking solid information on the existence of the N64 demo though.

Totally agree with harp, this introduction starts with one thing and ends on a rant, which is not appropriate and is POV based. Insert coin and try again.Edit: wow i made a sentence fragment, where are my english skills? >< -Tik

I understand why the previous "Criticisms" section was deleted as editorializing, but could we possibly consider replacing it with a new section, adhering better to NPOV, that goes over the critical reaction to FFX? I consider that sort of thing important to know about a game. 68.226.239.73

It can be replaced if it is sourced. See Wikipedia:Cite sources ~ Hibana 02:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Inspiration for architecture in this game?

Are there any fantasy artists or real-life architects who were the basis for inspiration of the bizarre fantasy-futuristic architecture seen in this game? I notice it's also the exact same style seen in Final Fantasy VIII. It's intrigued me for a long time but I've never been able to get a decent answer from any Final Fantasy forums. --69.234.232.207 23:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

• Me and my roommate thought about this for a while and we came up with a theory that we think explains it all. Basically Square locks all of their software designers/creators/programmers up in a dark room without food or water and they keep them there until they come up with the crazy ideas that they do in the game. =) --ZeWrestler ^Talk 12:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Explanation of cleanup tag

I just tagged the article with a {{cleanup}} notice, mainly because of the size of the thing. The detail in this article really seems better suited to a game guide, and is pretty fancrufty (a term which I do not use lightly). My personal inclination is to trim the hell out of the character list, keeping only player characters and demonstrably important NPCs (Seymour, Jecht, etc.), and to do much the same thing with the Aeon list. The prose in the gameplay section could stand to be tightened, as well: the paragraph on the battle system frequently seems to spin into tangents (the mentions of Breath of Fire 4 and FFX-2's Garment Grid), for example. I'll see if I can make some improvement tomorrow, but I wanted to see if anyone had any other comments before I made any major changes. – Seancdaug 08:03, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

• I've gone ahead and moved all the characters except the playables to List of Final Fantasy X characters. The gameplay section still needs to be fixed, and we might want to dissolve the trivia section. ~ Hibana 16:32, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
  • I'd further recommend removing the character descriptions from here (as they're now duped in the more suitable List of... article) and replacing them with a more general summary (as in the other FF 'root' articles, eg VII and VIII). I'll have a crack at that myself sometime unless someone beats me to it =) --Gamemaker 14:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Tag positioning

ok so i moved the tag up to the top of the article thinking the gameplay section gap between the section name and the text would disappear, but it didnt. i am not sure what to do to fix it, but it could have something to do with the picture position.Tik 15:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Release dates

How can something be release in January 01 internationally, but in May 04 in Europe? Surely international means worldwide?

The international version was released in Japan only. ~ Hibana 02:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Kinda defeats the point, don't you think? -82.7.125.142 19:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

The International tag is used on the Japanese re-release of the game that incorporates any extra content that was added for the US/EU versions.Gamemaker 13:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

In which case, how is that possible, seeing as the EU version wasn't even out at that time?

The US version had previously been released. I'm confused as to what you're disputing now... see International version for more info, and/or don't read things too literally =)

Neon Genesis Evangelion

I don't know if anyone noticed but near the second half of the series Neon Genesis Evangelion the Mecha Unit-01 bears a remarkable resemblance to the Aeon Anima in Final Fantasy X and X-2. "Some have speculated that qualifying pilots must have lost a mother, whose soul is used as the soul of the Eva" The soul of Seymour Guado's mother is used to create Anima, and is visually quite similar. In the anime the soul of Shinji Ikari is speculated to be necessary for the creation of his EVA. Quite the coincidence don't you think?

A wikipedia article is not the place for speculation. You must have a verifiable source for the information. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 19:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I know a wikipedia article isn't the place for speculation, which is why I put the speculation in the discussion and not the article.

I thought you were suggesting it should be added. Why else would you post it? --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 00:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

To uh... Discuss it.

Wikipedia is not a soapbox or chatroom. Talk pages are for discussing changes to the article. (Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#What_may_talk_pages_be_used_for.3F) So you can see why I was somewhat confused. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib)

Ah, I never knew that it was purely for discussion of the article, because oft times (for instance the Inspiration for architecture in this game? here) the discussion doesn't have anything exactly to do with improving the article. My apologies.

This isn't a solid rule, just a guideline. I don't think there's any need to apologise. I was just explaining the source of my confusion. But in general it's best to keep this kind of chat in forums and the like. :) --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 18:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for being decent to the newb. I'll keep what you said in mind from now on.

NES version

[1]

^ Notable enough? - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd say wait until we have more comfirmation that it is a) complete b) not a hoax. I've known about it for a week or so and I've seen both these claimed to be complete and real in lots of blogs, but I haven't seen any hard evidence. Some of the animations on the offical japanese site for the project look fake to me, check this one out: [2]. This suggests to me that the project isn't complete and they have yet to implement FFX style battles in the FFII engine. (A task I consider to be almost impossible.) If it is not complete then we should wait to see if the project is really progressing.

However, this is most definitly notable if we can confirm that it is real and complete with a reliable source. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 01:53, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Story

The zanarkand that Tidus is from is not the one from 1000 years ago, but is basicly a huge aeon made from many fayth. From Yevon:

"With Sin, he decimated Bevelle's army but also destroyed Zanarkand in the process as well as the other machina cities of the world to prevent them from starting another war. He ordered the Fayths to create a dream of Zanarkand as it was before its destruction, so 'Zanarkand' would never truly fade into history."

the Yevon article also covers more completly the ending to the game, including how Sin is usually defeated and why that means he can come back. Another thing to include would be what the party did differently (entered Sin without a final aeon, killed the last final aeon, exposing yu yevon, and killing it). And it may also be notable to add that the last final aeon was actually part of another aeon ('Zanarkand' the aeon), and that upon Sin's final destruction, the fayth dreaming Zanarkand stopped, causing Tidus to disappear. Htl2001 15:54, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

You can include whatever you want, but if the Yevon article already discusses it, why put such a huge spoiler on the game's main article? ~ Hibana 21:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Because this article is about the whole game, and already marks the section "Plot and/or ending details follow"

The Yevon article is about the fictional religion, and although it could contain the information on the ending (since it is relivant to the article) the article on the entire game should not be missing this important peice of information, as it would be incomplete without it. After all, I think the story should have a proper ending --Htl2001 00:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge with other articles - Pyreflies

This article is something of a problem, in my opinion. Unlike the vast majority of fancruft we get around here, this is an extremely well-written and organized article: it's just that subject matter is... shall we say... a tad too nuanced for most readers. In terms of subject matter, it's not much different than the old slave crown article we used to have. If it were to put up for AfD, there's almost no way it would survive the vote. But, again, it's well-written enough that I don't feel comfortable losing it all. My suggestion is that the article be transwiki'd, in its current state, to the Final Fantasy wiki, and the material be summarized into two or three basic sentences for inclusion in this article. Does anyone have any complaints regarding that course of action? – Seancdaug 00:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. Deckiller 00:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

cough cough heresy! cough! Nah, seriously, I did think when I wrote it that the article might be a little on the, hmm, detailed side - hence the tentative RfC I put on the Talk page at the time =) In short, for selfish reasons I'd like to see it stay, but I agree that the above action would probably be for the best. I wouldn't like to try editing it down to three sentences though..! >Gamemaker 00:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

If edits to the article on the Final Fantasy wiki appeared on my watchlist here, I might agree, but they don't. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 01:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this suggestion, though, like Gamemaker, I kind of hate to see the page go. I'd gotten a bit attached to it myself after doing some editing over there. Oh well. I'll go ahead and make a page for it on the Final Fantasy Wiki using the current data and then I'll try to make a summary out of it in here for approval. Ryu Kaze 04:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, on second thought, how about merging the pyreflies page with the Spira page? It would be a bit more at home in that pyreflies are a phenomenon witnessed on Spira and in that there's already a link there (Farplane section) to the pyreflies article. Thoughts? Ryu Kaze 04:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Also, I recommend signing comments with four tildes right after the sentence so they don't hang into the next line. Again, interesting idea; it may work. Deckiller 04:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I guess we should get a couple more opinions (Seancdaug? Gamemaker?) before going through with it, though. In the meantime I'll come up with a summary for the pyrefly section. And I'll start putting the tildes at the end of sentences instead of below them, heh. Ryu Kaze 04:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Pyreflies should be merged with Spira. Pyreflies is an informative page on a specific phenomenon within Spira, but Spira itself is basically (aside from the backstory explanation) the location and geography page for FFX and FFX2. Tell me, would you merge Materia into Final Fantasy VII locations? I don't think you would.PiccoloNamek 04:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

When put that way, I may have to change my mind. If the Spira page is intended to only serve as the Final Fantasy X equivalent of the Final Fantasy VII locations page then the article on pyreflies would be kind of awkward there. At the time it seemed like a good idea, though. Sure you don't want to change your mind, PN? I mean, it's probably as important an aspect of Spira as the information in the The Beginning and Yuna's pilgrimage sections. Whatever you guys prefer, though. Ryu Kaze 05:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

As much as I might make it seem, Spira is not mine, so even if I make up my mind "no" it really wouldn't matter. :) I just don't see how an article about a specific thing could be integrated into an article with a more general tone like Spira. But then again, It just might work. I'm not sure where it would go. The article is supposed to be mainly about Spira's history and the locations within it, but the concept of a grand, overreaching SPIRA article that covers the world in-depth doesn't sound too shabby. Such a thing really wouldn't cut it on Wikipedia though, I'm afraid. I wouldn't mind trying to assemble something like that on the Final Fantasy Wiki, though. Ooo, I've got some nice ideas... I can see it now. There are no "cruft" restrictions, there. Hell, we could do a gigantic article on the entire world of Spira and it would be perfectly ok! PiccoloNamek 05:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Basically, yes, Spira is the same as any other Final Fantasy location page, except for the fact that it has a name, and the backstory explanation. Few Final Fantasy games actually tell you the name of the world/planet that they occur on. If Spira hadn't been named Spira the page would have probably been named "List of Final Fantasy X and X2 Locations". Most Final Fantasy games also don't elaborate on their worlds' backstories, but Spira's backstory is so rich and interesting, I thought it necessary to include. The Final Fantasy XI location page is similar to Spira in that it has a name, and a larger amount of story information than the other pages.PiccoloNamek 05:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

That would be cool. You really should look into doing that on the Final Fantasy Wiki. By the way, the Final Fantasy Wiki's pyreflies page is up: http://finalfantasy.wikicities.com/wiki/Pyreflies

I had a little trouble getting the image on there for some reason. PN, could you maybe take care of that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ryu Kaze (talk • contribs) .

Done PiccoloNamek 06:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, here's the summary I propose for pyreflies:

Pyreflies are an ambiguous, naturally occurring phenomenon that heavily influences the events of Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2, as well as the world of Spira at large. Heavily prevalent throughout Spira, these "bundles of life energy" (as they're referred to by the Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega Guide) are closely associated with death and other spiritual matters.

Though they have been harnessed to many uses, both good and ill, in their inert form, they appear to lack self-awareness and any identifiable agenda. As such, they are nothing more than an aspect of nature, permeating everything and everyone in Spira in low-to-high concentrations. Pyreflies are usually invisible, but when a Fiend is killed or a Summoner performs a Sending, the pyreflies give off light as they rise into the air, due to them being more highly concentrated in those situations. Despite their rare appearances elsewhere, they're regularly seen around the Moonflow area of Spira, this due to how easily pyreflies and water harmonize with one another.

Pyreflies serve as the raw material for the manifestation of Aeons, Fiends, and Unsent, and can be easily connected to any and all paranormal phenomena that occur in Spira. In addition to their spiritual affiliations, they're also associated with many commonplace technological innovations. Such innovations include sphere-shaped recording devices formed of the crystalized mixture of pyreflies and water (simply called "Spheres"), and large, suspended spherical conglomerations of congealed water (called "Sphere Pools") that serve as the playing field for Blitzball games.

Opinions? Ryu Kaze 05:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

You guys managed to scare off a good guy ? I hope Ryu comes back. He is gone from Wikicities too. I wonder if he had the same problems I had with rudeness here. This is not good for Wikipedia and the FFX pages Renmiri 18:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

A good point raised by PiccoloNamek - the Spira article is indeed effectively the locations list for FFX and X-2; unless we add a section for 'Natural phenomena' or suchlike, the Pyreflies info wouldn't really fit. How about adding a little info to the Story sections of the FFX and X-2 main articles? I initially wrote the Pyreflies article because I thought they were key to the events of both games; without the Pyreflies, neither of the two stories could have taken place, and Spira would be a much happier place =) >Gamemaker 14:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be a lot quieter too. It'd be a husk of dirt and rock without any people, vegetation, or animals. XD

By the way, Gamemaker, got an opinion on the summary I wrote? Or a suggestion of where it could go in the article? The story section is looking like the only one where it might fit, but even there it would be a bit out of place, it seems. Ryu Kaze 20:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The wikibook for Final Fantasy X-2 is pretty barren. If you don't feel it belongs in the FF Wiki how about making the wikibook yours ? I added a book there for Illustrated Guide to the world of Spira (FFX and FFX-2) which you could merge into the FFX Wikibook. My intention with my illusttrated guide was to make it a "hitchiker's guide to Spira" which I know realize it does not belong on Wikibooks, so I won't be keeping it and you can use all that is there at your leisure. The good thing about Wikibooks is that you can put a very cool attntion catchig box linking to it at Spira's page or at FFX2 page Renmiri 17:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

On the whole I like it. The info about pyreflies harmonising with water and the technological applications sound a little orginally researched though - did this come from the UOG too? It may be hard to keep this information unedited, even with the ref to the guide in the first paragraph (which I'd suggest moving to a References section if I didn't think it would invite more uninformed edits =)) >Gamemaker 01:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Just now seeing these responses; sorry for the delay. Ren, I may be willing to take on the wikibook. I'm not sure right now. I've got a lot going on and aside from these merges I'm proposing further down, I don't know if I'll have time.

Gamemaker: Yeah, that stuff comes from the UOG, as well. Handle the citation however you feel is best. Ryu Kaze 09:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm.... In hindsight, it seems that it really does "fit" most comfortably in Spira (Final Fantasy X), if only because putting it there would avoid needing to repeat the same information in both Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2. I'm wondering if it might be worth splitting the locations list from the Spira article to some other location (like List of Final Fantasy X locations), and use the Spira article itself to cover the backstory and history of the world itself (namely, the "The beginning" and Yuna's pilgrimage at the Eternal Calm" sections). Even without the Pyreflies info, the Spira article is kind of on the long-side, and it's currently lumped together with the other "List of Final Fantasy n locations" articles, despite the fact that it doesn't exactly follow the same format, thanks to the lengthy prose sections. I don't know... do you think the prose is enough to stand alone on Wikipedia? Even if we added more information, such as information about Pyreflies? Suddenly splitting such a well established article into two separate articles, one of which might get deleted or merged if it were alone seems a little drastic. Sure, the format of the article is a little different, but that's simply because there's more information to go on. Like I said, Final Fantasy X is one of the few FF games where any detailed information is actually given about the history of world you're playing in.PiccoloNamek 21:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the backstory is probably strong enough to pass muster as a seperate article, and the fact that the world features prominently in two different games makes it more difficult to merge that information in either one of the main game articles. The location list can certainly stand alone, as it does for most other games in the series, of course. Personally, I think we've got articles on more trivial topics as is, so I don't foresee a problem (famous last words, I know...). But that's just my take on the matter. – Seancdaug 21:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see why the pyreflies article couldn't fit into the Spira page without dissecting what is already listed as a Good Article -- and a very professional-looking one at that. It's already got quite a bit of backstory info in there as things are.

Not only would this make the Spira article itself more "complete," but it would allow for the summary on pyreflies to be fleshed out a bit more. Perhaps not to the extent that it is on the pyreflies page, but more than those three little paragraphs.

As you've said, PN, Spira is one of the few worlds in the Final Fantasy series that really has an elaborated history. It really feels like a real place, full of tons of culture, diversity, and an extensive history that we may have only scraped the surface of. In said spirit, it certainly warranted the backstory information you threw in, and I personally feel that a section on pyreflies would be right at home. Pyreflies are the fundamental building blocks of everything in Spira, after all. As I said above, without those, there wouldn't be anything but a big crumbling sphere of dirt and rock to begin with.

Granted, spiritual energy is equally vital to every Planet and actively present on all of them, but on Spira, it's actively apparent at all times. It's constantly affecting something and it just feels like there's a lot more to say about it here than there is in most of the other games. While it's technically just as apparent on every count in Final Fantasy VII's world (electricity, Materia, etc.), it's never pushed forward as strongly as it is here, nor does it have this pyrefly phenomenon.

I think what I'm trying to say here is that in Final Fantasy VII, spiritual energy seems to be featured more as a plot device, while in X and X-2, it feels like it's just another detail in a world rich with details; just another part of nature that exists side-by-side with everything else. Ryu Kaze 22:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Pyrefly info is most at home alongside the other Spiran backstory, I was just expressing a concern that, if the information was merged, it would make the article too long. There's kind of a logical break in the flow of the page between the backstory and the location listing, if we need to split it as a result. Even if we do keep everything together, I agree that the information fits best there. – Seancdaug 23:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

After looking a little more closely at the Spira article I'll amend what I said earlier and agree that the Pyreflies info would fit in, in fact the end of the Eternal Calm section seems a natural segue point. I'd also agree with PN that it may not be disastrous to split Spira (Final Fantasy X), moving its locations list to a new List of Final Fantasy X & X-2 locations article, or suchlike. While I hestitate to disturb a very good article too, I think it may work out better that way and would make the Pyreflies info more at home in the former article. Besides, the change wouldn't be irreversable; if the changes don't feel right, we can always revert. >Gamemaker 01:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I believe Piccolo made a very good Spira page and it does have all locations. The rest can go on wikibooks. That is where I moved my "lost cities of Spira" page. Besides, both Wikibooks for FFX and FFX2 reek right now. It would be good to redirect the enthusiasm to change a good page into enthusiasm to fix a couple of very barren pages. I did a little but it needs a lot more work Renmiri 17:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)REnmiri

I agree that PN's Spira page is excellent, and I'm not advocating that we lose any of it, just that we divide it to make it easier to manage. I've prepared a mock-up of my idea here and here (albeit without images, since they're outside of the article namespace). I've used Ryu Kaze's summarization: the full text can (and should) be moved elsewhere). Thoughts? – Seancdaug 18:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's just the high esteem I hold for the Spira page talking here, but even looking at it chopped up like that in an example is a heavy blow to the heart. Favoritism aside, though, I'm looking at the examples and it looks like both are lacking something (they lack images, but that's not what I mean). I admit that it may be due to being aware of their original status, but to tell the truth, I think if I were to just now be coming along and those were two seperate articles, I'd probably propose that they be merged anyway.

When getting down to the heart of the matter, Spira is the location of FFX and X-2 and any discussion on the locales of that world is, by definition, a discussion about Spira itself, especially when considering the diversity in races and cultures, yet how they interact with one another. To me, the locations and the backstory info being together serve to compliment one another in a way that offers a lot more than it could possibly detract. It wouldn't be that much more difficult to manage the Spira page as it is right now with just one more section.

Also, like PN said before, the FFXI locations page uses "Vana'diel" and has more more extensive information than most of the other pages. It's only natural that an elaborated world gets an elaborated article. We don't refer to the FFVII or IX location lists as "Gaia" or the FFIV location list as "Earth" because the names of those Planets hardly influences the stories themselves, if they even get mentioned more than once or twice at all, and those worlds hardly feel characterized in any way by their names. There's just so much more to say about Spira and Vana'diel that when you think of these worlds and the locations on them you think of their names and vice versa. No matter how different their locations may be from one another, you always know they're part of the same world. Maybe that's partly because of how you travel through each location to get to the next instead of just running across a bunch of random overworld terrain that's hardly distinguishable from the terrain anywhere else except based on generic characteristics like "grassland, rocky terrain, desert, etc," but also because of how they're presented and how real they feel. Everything feels connected. Basically, it feels like "List of FFVII locations" = "Places where stuff happens in FFVII"; "List of FFX and X-2 locations" = "Spira."

Also, I think the backstory info flows a little better if "Pyreflies" comes after "Yuna's Pilgrimage and the Eternal Calm." I say this because the other two sections get you into the meat of Spira's past; the stuff that really jumps out at you when you think about Spira as an inhabited world. The pyreflies section seems better suited as an expansion, if you will. The skin that goes over the meat and bones.

Those are my thoughts. Ryu Kaze 02:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine, really. Again, the only reason I suggested splitting the pages was due to length problems, which are not severe enough to lose sleep over. As for the placement of the Pyrefly paragraphs, I placed them at the beginning because a lot of it really does feel like background information: the presence of that information helps provide some context for the chronological narrative. By putting it at the end, some of it seems a bit redundant. But these were just my initial impressions: I'm not particularly sold on one layout or another. – Seancdaug 22:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Hm... when put like that, I agree about the placement of the pyreflies section. I guess it does make more sense to talk about what Pyreflies are before mentioning that Sin was made from tons of the things. Though I think the other way fits better from an interest-catching standpoint, in the sense of preserving clarity of subject matter, your suggestion is superior. Ryu Kaze 23:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

So, is it safe to assume that we can move ahead with the merge? Everyone -- with the possible exception of Renmiri -- seems to be for it. If there are no objections in the next... say... five or six hours, I'm going to go ahead and do it. It seems that merging the Pyreflies page with another page was long ago agreed upon, and the idea that it's going into the Spira page seems to be agreed upon. The only issue brought up of late is the idea of splitting the Spira page, and I don't think any of us really wants to do that, so... yeah, I'll go ahead with it in the next few hours. It can always be changed later if it needs to be, but I don't see the Spira page getting any longer after this, really. Ryu Kaze 02:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, what the hell. I'll go ahead and do it now. If I screw up, theoretically we can fix it. Ryu Kaze 07:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It's done. "Pyreflies" now redirects to the merged Spira page. The original Pyreflies page can still be found on the Final Fantasy Wiki's Pyreflies page. Anyone dissatisfied with it? Ryu Kaze 08:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. I was more concerned with splitting the Spira page. Adding the pyrefly stuff looks OK. Renmiri 03:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

PS: Just out of curiosity, where did you see that the Farplane resides in the core of Spira ? And I have never seen the Blitzball arena described as made by pyreflies.. This area interests me greatly because of a Fan Fiction novel I am writing Renmiri 03:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

The information seems fine. I'm still not sure about it being at the top of the page though. It somehow just breaks the "flow" of the page.PiccoloNamek 04:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Renmiri: It's shown in FFX-2 that the Farplane is definitely at the heart of Spira, and mentioned in Ultimania, as well. As far as Sphere Pools go, they're not made of Pyreflies, exactly, but due to how easily Pyreflies bond with water, they contain a high concentration of them. That's why the Blitz players can remain active underwater for prolonged periods of time.

PN: I thought that it broke the flow at first too, but it's grown on me now. I think it actually works better coming before all the sections we've been used to, as it doesn't place a break in them. Ryu Kaze 07:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)