Talk:Father of the House (United Kingdom)

Winston Churchill

There is a minor error in the list. Churchill is shown as a Liberal from 1900, but he was elected as a Conservative in 1900 and defected to the Liberals in 1904. My table skills are not up to making the necessary change. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:37, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

How far should we go back?

I raised this a year or two ago before the page was split, and now seems a good time to raise it again - should we really have such a long list of names?

It seems pretty clear that the "modern" definition (longest unbroken service) was only really established in about 1898. Before that, the term was used for different people in different ways. However, we present a list of names as absolute fact, making no distinction between before and after the term was formalised, and almost certainly including many people who would not have been thought of this way by their contemporaries. It's notable that of the six pre-1898 uses quoted by the Commons Library briefing paper, only two (Burrell & Talbot) are on our list of Fathers.

I'd suggest that either we follow the lead of the Commons Library and knock this list down to just c.1900 onwards, or else split it into two distinct lists with clear labelling - one the "modern" Fathers, and one an indicative list of "people who had the longest unbroken service before 1900", without actually saying that they were definitely Father of the House. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:25, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Any thoughts on this? If not I will go ahead and split the lists. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I split the articles, but just copied things over. Separating the period before the concept received real recognition from the modern era idea makes sense. QueenCake (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Great - I've gone ahead and made a stab at it. Exactly where to split is a bit unclear, but I've gone with starting our list at Beach (1899), who was definitely chosen under the "modern rules". The Commons Library list starts at Hicks-Beach (1901), which would also be an option. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Current Father

Is not Dennis Skinner now the Father of the House of Commons? Kenneth Clarke MP retired on 6 November. The longest-serving member of the house is now Dennis Skinner MP, elected in June 1970. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpaceFox99 (talk • contribs) 07:38, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

If he's re-elected, he will be. But right now no, as after dissolution there's no parliament to be Father of. QueenCake (talk) 22:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

George Harcourt

On the picture linked to George Harcourt there is a lady. At first it was quite surprising, I've scrutinized quite thoroughly to find out if he was just a funny character but in 1806 that look would have been even more flashy. Okay, I see the page of the right honorable gentleman, the lady is his wife. There is absolutely nothing disorderly, I just wanted to fill this textbox :) 89.135.19.119 (talk) 10:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

caps or not

Woko Sapien decapitalized father everywhere, invoking MOS:JOBTITLES. This makes me uneasy. Unlike king or director, father has a literal meaning only distantly related to its sense here, and the capital letter helps remind the reader of that. I would feel better if it were capitalized at least when the word stands alone, without "of the House". (Hey, why not "house"?) —Tamfang (talk) 00:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Although I don't really agree with it, I think your point is fair enough. If it makes you that uneasy, you're welcome to change it back (I won't revert you). As for the slippery slope implication, "House" in this case would always be capitalized since it's shorthand for the House of Commons. Cheers! Woko Sapien (talk) 15:48, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

House of Lords

Regarding dates of service of previous 'Father's', I have added specific references to Hansard confirming the precise day on which members first sat, except in the cases of Amherst and Oranmore & Browne, which I cannot for the life of me find. In the latter case, I know he never spoke in 72 years (!) but regardless, there should be single line somewhen to indicate his joining date - all I can find is that for his father here. Perhaps another use will have more luck?2A02:8012:227B:0:9CF3:6312:BA2D:4F43 (talk) 11:06, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Found the specific references for both and added them. Historic Hansard (see [https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/index.html) makes those dates easier to find. Oranmore & Browne sat using his British peerage (Baron Mereworth). Cheers! Aumnamahashiva (talk) 15:51, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

changes of title

In the last (newest?) table, it is arguably misleading to use the same language for lords who entered the House with a lower title and later received a higher, as for those whose highest title was Irish but who sat with an E/GB/UK title. I would remove the former from the "Entitled as" column and make the first column thus:

• William King-Noel, 8th Lord King (created Earl of Lovelace in 1838)

because his seniority dates from when he entered the House as Lord King, and he did not lose that title in 1838! —Tamfang (talk) 06:51, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Or: first column Entered House of Lords as, with another column Highest title if different. —Tamfang (talk) 01:05, 21 January 2024 (UTC)