Talk:Fantasy podcast

Not to be confused with

I think one of the "not to be confused with" banners should be placed at the top of the article. When I google search for sources I have to use the following qualifiers to get relevant sources:

• "Fantasy podcast" -afl -motocross -bto -nrl -sports -esports -espn -nfl -nba -nhl -fifa -mlb -football -soccer -basketball -hockey -baseball -"final fantasy" -"drag queen" -"By Tom Merritt"

So perhaps a "Not to be confused with fantasy football / fantasy sports" would be appropriate. I've never made one of those before though so if someone else is willing to do it I'd appreciate it. If not I'll look into it eventually. TipsyElephant (talk) 16:28, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done Carter (talk) 18:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Scripted podcasts

I want to be clear on the talk page. Fantasy podcast is not synonymous with scripted podcast, fantasy podcast is not a subcategory of scripted podcast, and scripted podcast is not a subcategory of fantasy podcast. Some fantasy podcasts are scripted and some scripted podcasts are fantasy, but they are not the same. At least 11 of the 22 podcasts mentioned in the article are clearly not scripted and are clearly not some kind of audio drama. 7 of the ones that are scripted are all mentioned by a single source and at least 2 of the scripted podcasts are mentioned by questionable sources (A medium post and a post by "High Tech Deck"). So clearly fantasy podcasts don't have to be scripted, but if we want to discuss what the sources support the evidence is even more overwhelmingly against the claim that fantasy podcasts are scripted podcasts. Only a single source out of all twenty sources even use the word scripted. The LifeHacker source that mentions the word "scripted" says:

"On the side I do the editing, sound design and mixing of a scripted fictional sci-fi/fantasy podcast called Roommate From Hell (it’s like a cartoon for your ears), which is partly written by Lifehacker’s very own Nick Douglas. The premise is that our protagonist moves in with a literal demon from hell, they become friends, and antics ensue."

That's not a very convincing source for claiming that all fantasy podcasts are scripted podcasts. The only other source that could potentially be cited is the Vox source that says "The world of fiction podcasts, often referred to as audio dramas, has expanded in recent years to provide a wealth of ear-tingling stories." which might suggest that all "Fiction podcasts" are "Audio dramas" or simply that people refer to a large subset of "Fiction podcasts" as "Audio dramas". However, nothing in any of the sources suggests that "Fiction podcast" is synonymous with "Fantasy podcast" and even if they are there isn't a single source that suggests an "Audio drama" is synonymous with a "Scripted podcast". That's a lot of jumps and it's contradictory or unsupported by every other source being used. If someone wants to make the claim that all "Fantasy podcasts" are "Scripted podcasts" or "Audio drama podcasts" I'd like it to be supported by at least one reliable source that clearly states it. Otherwise it should be left vague. Besides, making that claim causes the article to lose any semblance of coherency. You can't claim all fantasy podcasts are scripted podcasts and then provide ten examples of non-scripted podcasts that apparently are somehow scripted. That makes no sense. Also, I don't understand why a word or phrase that's practically never used in the sources should ever be put in the article as the defining name or feature of the genre. TipsyElephant (talk) 01:50, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

If someone does provide sources for the claim they should explicitly use the phrases that are relevant. For instance, if the source does not contain any reference to the phrase "Fantasy podcast" and also a reference to the phrase "Scripted podcast" than I don't see how it supports the claim. TipsyElephant (talk) 01:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I think it's also worth mentioning that the non-scripted/non-audio drama podcasts appear to be significantly more notable. For instance, only one out of the six fantasy podcasts that already have a separate wikipedia article is scripted. Similarly, most of the scripted podcast examples are mentioned in listicles or briefly mentioned in articles about something else. Whereas The Adventure Zone, Critical Role, Hello From The Magic Tavern, and Clarkesworld Magazine all have at least one full news article dedicated to them. TipsyElephant (talk) 03:02, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I thought about this a little more. Wouldn't a claim that a "Scripted podcast" is equivelant to a "Fantasy podcast" need to be written in such a way that the person making the claim is mentioned and a balance of opinions be present? For instance, "According to so-and-so, scripted podcasts are fantasy podcasts. However, here are ten examples that contradict that opinion" TipsyElephant (talk) 03:55, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that this article is lumping together fiction-based, non-fiction, and collaborative story-telling podcasts that involve fantasy themes under the single grouping "fantasy podcasts" and trying to say "fantasy podcast" equals a single thing. Is the defining characteristic that they are podcasts that involve/discuss fantasy themes? If so start with that, then subdivide the article into commentary/review podcasts, fiction podcasts (scripted, audio book, or whatever), and live-play/collaborative-storytelling podcasts, or whatever other subcategories make sense. Carter (talk) 03:31, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Based on what I've found in the sources it would be accurate to say that the defining characteristic is that they are podcasts that involve or discuss fantasy themes, which includes things like the improv comedy of Hello From the Magic Tavern, the role-playing of Critical Role and The Adventure Zone, the audiobook narration of Clarkesworld Magazine and The BCS Audio Vault, the reviews and discussions of 372 Pages We’ll Never Get Back or Sword & Laser, and also the audio drama/scripted style of The Two Princes or Roommate From Hell. I'll try to make that more clear in the introduction and parse things out further within the article. If the sources didn't support this point of view (which the clearly do) then the subject would not be notable enough for an article and there wouldn't be enough examples to populate the category because right now that would only leave The Two Princes. TipsyElephant (talk) 20:52, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

The sources may support that the podcasts involve fantasy themes, but I don't see them supporting Fantasy Podcasts as a big bucket category of podcasts. None of the ones you have here are categorized in iTunes as Fantasy (Clarksworld is Fiction > Science Fiction; Critical Role is Leisure > Games; The Adventure Zone is Fiction > Comedy Fiction; Hello from the Magic Tavern is Comedy > Improv; BCS Audio Vault is Arts > Books; 372 Pages ... is Comedy; Swords & Lasers is Arts > Books; The Two Princes is Fiction; Roommate from Hell is Fiction > Comedy Fiction). Looking at iTunes categories for podcasts, the only Fantasy label is for Sports > Fantasy Sports. Carter (talk) 21:43, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Does iTunes count as a reliable secondary source? I was under the impression that iTunes was a primary source and not a reliable source of news. Every source I've provided explicitly calls each podcast a "Fantasy podcast," whereas none of the sources including iTunes does not use the terms "Scripted podcast" or "Audio drama podcast." If you would like to disagree with all twenty sources that make this claim and start an article for deletion you may, but if you only want to include audio dramas than you're stuck with a couple sources, the article would likely be deleted for not meeting notability standards, and the category will likely be deleted as well for WP:SMALLCAT because there is currently only one podcast that meets your standard. In the meantime, I'm going to use the available sources and attempt to make a coherent and useful article. If you want the article to continue existing and only include scripted podcasts you're going to need some sources, which you still haven't presented. TipsyElephant (talk) 01:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I've gone through and included quotes for every source that doesn't include the term "Fantasy podcast" in the title and I've removed any that weren't clear or had less reliable sources. The only one left without a quote is The BCS Audio Vault, which I found by searching the book before but now it's not coming up. I'll look for the quote again later, but I'm expanding the content so that the article is easier to read. TipsyElephant (talk) 02:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

If we're going based on the iTunes category chart then Horror podcast, Category:Horror podcasts, Category:Speculative fiction podcasts, Category:Comic book podcasts, Category:Advice podcasts, Category:Astronomy education podcasts, Category:Podcasts with educational YouTubers, Category:Feminist podcasts, Category:Law podcasts, Category:LGBT-related podcasts, and Category:Socialist podcasts would all have to be deleted or renamed. I really don't think iTunes is our standard for decided categories and genres on Wikipedia. Also, why would iTunes categories have priority over Spotify categories, Stitcher categories, Deezer categories, or even a podcast network like Maximum Fun or Parcast. We're supposed to use reliable secondary sources not primary sources. Besides the articles that are being referenced spend more time explaining and providing examples of what a fantasy podcast is than just a list of podcasts. I really don't understand why you're so set on your personal definition of a fantasy podcast. TipsyElephant (talk) 13:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how this isn't an intuitive general category, how is podcasts with fantasy themes is needless distinction. Also why should apple podcasts the ultimate authority on this? —blindlynx (talk) 19:49, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Apple's podcasting categories are pretty much the industry standard. When Apple reworks the categories, it cascades through out other podcasting networks.[1] The issue here for me is that there seems to be a lot of handwringing over trying to parse what is this sort of podcast or that sort of podcast. If Apple counts as a primary source here, and I'm not convinced it does, remember WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD. All I'm suggesting is to consider looking to Apple's list when there's a question in delineating among categories. Of course, apply WP:PRIMARYCARE, but how the podcast producer categorizes their work and how it's filed seems not controversial and acceptable.
tipsyelephant I'm not set on "my definition" of a fantasy podcast; I was trying to suggest above ways to reconcile the concerns you spent more than 850 bytes on. I also was pointing out where I see a stumbling block you keep hitting on trying to define categories that mix fiction, non-fiction, and things like live-play that don't fit comfortably in either. Carter (talk) 23:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Here's another source that says Hello From The Magic Tavern, Critical Role, and The Adventure Zone are all fantasy podcasts. And another that says in the title that The Adventure Zone is a fantasy podcast, and then in the article it lists Imaginary Worlds as one of the seven fantasy podcasts and even states that it's non-fiction. All of the available sources clearly indicate that improvised, role-playing, or non-fiction podcasts dedicated to discussions about fantasy themes all count as "Fantasy podcasts." I also strongly disagree with the idea that iTunes sets the standards for Wikipedia, and unless you plan on deleting or renaming all of the above mentioned categories then I don't see the point. There are clearly enough sources to warrant a category for "Fantasy podcasts" and to simply claim it shouldn't be because iTunes doesn't have it on it's list is not a good reason to get rid of the category. If you want platforms that have the category there's Player.fm, Podchaser, FictionPodcasts.com, and BBC. And they all include some kind of improvised or role-playing podcasts with the exception of BBC, which only has a few podcasts. I'm just very unsure how the article would be notable without all the secondary sources that claim these things. You'd have like four podcasts by your standard because only four of the podcasts currently in the article are listed as "Drama" on iTunes. I'm really unclear about what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want this article deleted, renamed, or modified? TipsyElephant (talk) 00:55, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

References

As far as I can tell Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher don't have categories for fiction podcasts, scripted podcasts, or audio drama podcasts. Is that a good reason for deleting categories corresponding to those genres? They are all pretty big players in the podcasting world and according to your source they must take their cue from iTunes when it comes to categorizing their podcasts. TipsyElephant (talk) 03:59, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

For that matter, iTunes doesn't even have a scripted category. So apparently deleting the scripted podcasts category was the correct thing to do according to your reasoning and the few sources that you've provided so far. TipsyElephant (talk) 13:51, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I've been going through the sources more thoroughly now and even the Vox source that says "The world of fiction podcasts, often referred to as audio dramas, has expanded in recent years to provide a wealth of ear-tingling stories." also includes "The End of Time & Other Bothers is a side roleplaying podcast (think The Adventure Zone or Critical Role)" and then describes the Alba Salix as an audio drama that's "Full of quirky characters and nods to roleplaying adventure games" which seems like a pretty clear indication that even this source doesn't exclude roleplaying and improvised podcasts from the fantasy genre. TipsyElephant (talk) 17:23, 18 February 2021 (UTC)