Talk:Ervin Nyiregyházi

Spelling

I made note in the article that "Nyiregyházi" is how Ervin invariably signed his last name. If no one here has a source, or a good argument, for placing the an accent over the first "i", then lets edit the article to reflect Nyiregyházi's preferred signature. --Michaelsayers 17:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I am checking again to see if there is any approval or disapproval for adjusting the accents to Nyiregyházi. I have photocopies of hundreds of Nyiregyházi signatures - each with an accent only over the "a".--Michaelsayers 07:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed an erroneous death date and added the information regarding the new biography about Nyiregyhazi. Did not know how to add italics to the biography's title! Lloyd Arriola 09:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Lloyd Arriola, 18 March 2007

Reorganization

This article is in need of an extensive reorganization in order to bring it up to Wiki standards. In addition, although there are no obvious errors in the article, it is almost wholly unsourced. I will get to work on this but it will take some time.THD3 (talk) 19:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

A few quick notes. I am using Kevin Bazanna's Lost Genius as the primary reference for this article, as it is the only truly authoritative work on Nyíregyházi. Bazanna states that it was N's hand that was seen in The Beast with Five Fingers, and I am adding that into the article. I've filled out the article with information on N's mother; corrected N's age for his Berlin concert with Nikisch - he was 15, not 6; I've trimmed the Schoenberg letter to Klemperer - but it's still too long; I've reorganized the article into a more coherent, chronological sequence. I welcome input any editors may have.THD3 (talk) 15:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

You've been doing a terrific job, keep up the good work. May I suggest, in order to reduce the excessive clutter in the footnotes caused by my additions of full bibliographic information, that a bibliography be added at the end, where all of this data (multiple publishers, ISBNs, etc.) can be given just once, so that the repeated footnotes can use a simple, shortened reference form? There are several conventions for this, the most compact being the author-date style, which would render the Bazanna references as "Bazanna 2007, [page number]". One convention often found in print media is to give the full entry in the first footnote, and then use a short-title form for all subsequent references (e.g., "Bazanna, Lost Genius, [page number]"). Unfortunately, this is not advisable on Wikipedia, where subsequent edits may make a shambles of this. (For example, moving paragraphs around, adding cited material prior to the "first" footnote, etc.) I also noticed that there is an in-text (author-date style?) citation that has been in place since the article was created, but has never had an identifying bibliography entry. This is the one reading "(Radford, 1990)", in the first biographical paragraph. Ordinarily, this would mean page 1,990 in a book or article identified only by the author's last name (another citation-format variant), but people often don't realise that a year should not be separated from the author's name be a comma, because the punctuation is used to set off a following page number. Do you have any idea what this source might be? If not, can you find a confirming citation in Bazanna to replace this with?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll work on compacting the references as soon as I've completed the revision. My next step will be to work on Nyiregyhazi's compositions. He was apparently quite prolific, but only a few pieces were published.THD3 (talk) 12:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I shall be patient, then, and let you get on with your good work. If you want any help with the references, you need only ask.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I've done all I can with the article. As stated before, the biggest obstacle is that there is only one authoritative reference on Nyíregyházi's life (and even that has its flaws). The rest comes from liner notes, blurbs, and thumbnail sketches in other books. In the last two weeks, I've done the following:

• Arranged the article into a roughly chronological order.
• Trimmed Schoenberg's lengthy letter (although it's still probably too long given the article size).
• Added information on Nyiregyhazi's mother.
• corrected numerous dates.
• fixed grammatical errors and other infelicities.
• brought some balance into the article, which was previously rather POV.
• replaced the lead photo with a superior one.
• added references.

I think the ref tag may now be removed, but I will leave that to Jerome Kohl -- whom I thank for his encouragement.THD3 (talk) 14:38, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Correct spelling of "Nyiregyházi"

(Below is something I just wrote to one of the editors of this article but will paste here, too, for what it's worth:) Could you please correct the spelling of Ervin Nyiregyházi's surname in the Wikipedia article?--something that was raised years ago already and should have been fixed long ago. The name is properly spelled just as in my first sentence (not Nyíregyházi, a "correction" presumably made by some well-meaning Hungarophile). The first syllable was "Nyir" with a regular "i" and always was--every single surviving source, published and unpublished, and all official records, in Hungary and everywhere else, including every single instance of the name written or signed by the man himself, is spelled as I've indicated above. The ONLY source ever to introduce the spelling "Nyíregyházi" is actually ... Wikipedia, which, in its zeal to be hyper-correct, has actually introduced a unique error into the literature, which is now being lazily replicated all over the Internet because of the Wikipedia's "authority". I know that the name of the city from which the name derives is properly spelled "Nyíregyháza" and I know that "Nyíregyházi" and "nyíregyházi" are words used in Hungarian, but we're not talking about a word in Hungarian, we're talking a surname, and a surname is spelled however the family in question says it's spelled. (You wouldn't change a name from Taylor to Tailor in order to make it "correct English"; this is exactly analogous.) The Nyiregyházi family always used this spelling, and no one in Hungary ever thought there was anything wrong with it--ALL of the documents about his life published in Hungary used this spelling. And he himself used it literally every time he wrote or signed his name. I spent 10 years researching his life for my 2007 biography of him, "Lost Genius," and have seen, in addition to the published Hungarian literature, literally hundreds and hundreds of pages (compositions, letters, passport applications, tax records, etc.) in which he wrote or signed his name by hand. (I also had all sorts of help from Hungarians in writing the book, I assure you.) I swear by all that is holy that I actually know how the man's name should be spelled, and I can't see why someone contributing to what is supposed to be an "encyclopedia" would have arbitrarily changed it on the basis of no sound authority. Since you are someone who has contributed to editing this article, I decided to write to you in the hope that this silly and pretty basic error could finally be fixed before it becomes a "fact" by sheer force of repetition online. Many thanks. Kevin Bazzana kevinbazzana@shaw.ca

I have corrected spelling throughout the article and all three spellings will lead to this version of page.THD3 (talk) 23:27, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

The matter of the spelling of "Nyiregyházi" continues to be misrepresented, in footnote 1: It is correct that his first name was spelled "Erwin" in Germanic countries, to maintain the correct pronunciation there (air-veen). But "Nyíregyházi" or "Nyiregyhazi" were NEVER correct alternative spellings; they are simply errors. And, as I pointed out before, the version "Nyíregyházi" (with two diacritics) was NEVER used in any source before Wikipedia--it is an error spread solely by Wikipedia, and should not be presented as an "alternative" spelling that is "sometimes seen". There are all sorts of wrong spellings of this difficult name that are "sometimes seen," as one can imagine; that doesn't mean they are viable alternatives; they are merely mistakes. (The phrase "dropping one or both of the diacritics" is incorrect if the two-diacritic form is just plain wrong.) The footnote also says: "He signed it as 'Nyiregyházi', and this is the spelling used throughout Bazzana's biography"--but even this phrasing makes it sound as though my spelling--and even N's own!--are somehow choices we made from various correct alternatives. Please, just get this simple matter correct: the name is "Nyiregyházi", and that's that. Kevin Bazzana (March 2014) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.54.32.120 (talk) 21:34, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I fixed the footnote. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 09:52, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Photo

It is interesting to note that in the photo presented here, N's haircut is akin to that of Franz Liszt, which makes his nickname 'the second Liszt' all the more plausible. --Hansung02 (talk) 21:06, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Errors

A couple of errors in this article: Correct death date is April 8, 1987, NOT April 13. (I am N's biographer. I have his death certificate.) Also, the reference to "The Beast with Five Fingers" should be removed. This reference does appear in my biography, and in many other sources old and new (including some that seem authoritative), but archival research I was only able to do after my book's publication shows no evidence that N worked on this film, and that the hand shown in the film is that of Victor Aller, the studio pianist who (according to studio records) did work on this film (on camera as well as on the soundtrack). N himself never spoke of being in this film, though he did discuss his film career in detail, and in fact he once actually denied being in this film in response to a query; for various reasons, however, I allowed myself to be swayed here by what is really an urban myth. The Wikipedia article on Aller refers to his work on "The Beast," and should stand as is, while the reference to the film should be dropped in the article on N. The following reference is incorrect in several respects: "A concert at the Old First Church in San Francisco in 1973 (to raise funds for an operation for his ninth wife) led to a two-year stipend and two professional recordings for Desmar and Columbia records, under the auspices of Gregor Benko and the Ford Foundation, which briefly brought him back into public view." A more accurate sentence would be: "Several public appearances in 1972 and 1973 led to studio recordings made, in 1974 and 1978, under the auspices of the International Piano Archives and the Ford Foundation. Some of these recordings were released, between 1977 and 1979, on albums on the Desmar and Columbia Masterworks labels, which briefly brought Nyiregyházi back into public view." Finally, under "Recordings" at the end: A new series of recordings of N's concerts from the 1970s has just been launched on the Sonetto Classics label, and at least one N recording is forthcoming in a release from Marston Records. Kevin Bazzana — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.176.15 (talk) 20:43, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I deleted the line about concerts in Europe in 1959. While this tidbit does appear in the liner notes to the 1977 Desmar album, no such concerts are documented, and N. never mentioned any such concerts in the very extensive biographical interviews he did with his last wife in the late 1970s and early 1980s. He did discuss in detail his travels to Europe in 1959, but never indicated that he performed there (except once in a bar in Majorca). His last documented European concert was in 1938 (Oslo); his last documented appearance in Europe was a radio recital in 1939 (Oslo); and his last documented American concert before his 1972 comeback was in 1957. Kevin Bazzana — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.176.15 (talk) 22:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

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Page moving

Hi @Graham87:,

I saw now the revison history, you have undone your page move, although the intial step was correct....I read the former discussions regarding the spelling (as well checked the Hungarian sources and Hungarian & German Wikipedia), and Ervin Nyíregyházi is the correct spelling, and the current "Ervin Nyiregyházi" is false. The version of "Nyireghazi Ervin" or "Nyiregyhazi Ervin" were used abroad and/or in the U.S. without the proper Hungarian diacritics that are not part of the English alphabet etc., but the current form is a mix of that that is false and were not used.

So please do your first move again as it was correct and respectively everywhere Nyiregyházi should be replaced with Nyíregyházi. Thank You(KIENGIR (talk) 20:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC))

Noe, I won't do that; I was just doing a history merge. Graham87 02:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

I see, but can I change the name of the page to the correct one with a traditional moving?(KIENGIR (talk) 18:34, 3 August 2018 (UTC))

Nope, you need to make a requested move. Graham87 01:44, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 11 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 22:17, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

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Ervin Nyiregyházi → Ervin Nyíregyházi – as per explained in the "Page Moving" section KIENGIR (talk) 19:33, 11 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 16:12, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

• Keep the present form. The discussion above cites the German and Hungarian Wikipedias for the correct spelling, and Wikipedia(s) is/are not (a) reliable source(s) (not even the German and Hungarian ones). It is true that several of the other Wikipedias (most notably the Romanian Wikipedia) also have the accented I, but the Portuguese Wikipedia does not. Neither does the (unsigned) Grove Online biographical article, nor Géza Révész's 1916 book. The subject's biographer, Kevin Bazzana, also emphatically supports the spelling without a diacritic on the I, in the discussion further up on this page. Unless some more impressive source than Wikipedia articles can be produced, it seems the evidence is entirely on the side of the current spelling.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Jerome Kohl, my problem is the current form is invalid as well regarding the Hungarian version/language, and as well the international form, since the latter should not contain any diacritics (as well "á" should change to "a")! If it goes to sources, here you are:

- (1) Ervin Nyíregyházi ([1]), ([2]), ([3]), ([4]), ([5])

- (2) Ervin Nyiregyhazi ([6]), ([7]), ([8])

- (3) Erwin Nyiregyhazi ([9])

- (4) Erwin Nyiregyházi ([10]) -> This is from the official dedicated to him, also reinforced by his autograph, however we don't what where or could this version be in his U.S. official papers.

In case the native Hungarian form is not supported (1), than (4) should be the form to be renamed.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:19, 12 August 2018 (UTC))

Comment – These sources appear inconclusive to me. (1) [2] and [5] (which are the Hungarian and English versions of the same page) show both the forms "Nyíregyházi" and "Nyiregyházi", the latter in the photo caption. Items under (2) and (3) are not really relevant since, as you yourself point out, English-language sources, especially newspapers, often lack the necessary characters. Item (4) strongly suppoerts the current usage of this article, particularly since it includes the autograph signature mentioned in Bazzana's biography. I do not understand your criticism, "we don't what where or could this version be in his U.S. official papers". I know of one other similar case on Wikipedia, that of the French composer Jean-Claude Éloy, whose name almost certainly should not include an accent aigue (the composer himself has vigorously objected, but his emails are not a "reliable source"), and yet even the French Wikipedia misspells it that way, because of all the "reliable sources" cited there do so. You may be interested to read the discussion at Talk:Jean-Claude Éloy.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:26, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Jerome Kohl,

What you did not understand was my mistake, one word is missing from the sentence, I wanted to write that: "we don't know what where or could this version be in his U.S. official papers".

[1],(2), (5) mainly supports in the lead mainly "Nyíregyházi", the occassion you mentioned is a mistype/mistake as this is common regarding 'í' and 'i'.

No, please check it again, (4) supports "Erwin" instead of "Ervin". That's why I said, if the current request is denied, than this one should be supported.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:47, 13 August 2018 (UTC))

I was considering only the family name, not the given one. Doesn't Bazzana give the source of that autograph signature (and why must it be a U.S. source)? I assumed he did, though I have not consulted his book to verify this. Either way, if you are trying to say that the online source with the autograph is not reliable, I agree with you. None of these online sources appear to pass the Wikipedia standard for reliability, which you can read here.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, all in all, we have to stick to some kind of validity, and it is the current request, or "Erwin Nyiregyházi". Official Hungarian or his autograph is the most reliable regarding this, better then anything else.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:38, 13 August 2018 (UTC))

Why are the New Grove and Bazzana's biography not reliable sources? Révész of course spells the first name "Erwin", but his writings are in German, which explains the German orthography.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:01, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Don't mix the concept of reliable source with validity or facts. Official Hungarian name or his own autograph abroad show the maximum reliability. We are interested on the most valid and proper information, obviously.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:18, 14 August 2018 (UTC))

Nevertheless, "the threshold for inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". I presume this is why you question the ultimate source of the autograph signature, since the website on which it is found is not a reliable source. Bazzana, on the other hand, does confirm this signature and, presumably, says where the document is located. I repeat my question: Why is Bazzana not reliable, in your opinion? To this I will add another: Where do we find a reliable list of "official Hungarian names"?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

I know wiki policy, but there are many reliable sources per definiton which contain littler or even huge mistakes or fallacies, in this case we may use some rephrasing or copyedit, and/or to use those reliable sources that are the nearest to or represent the truth, this is the principle and should be the final goal in WP. I am a little bit confused regarding your question since the autograph I presented from his official site I fully accept. Official Hungarian = what is in his Hungarian official papers.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:08, 15 August 2018 (UTC))

I see. You mean things like his birth certificate, passport, school matriculation records—that sort of thing? These things are not always easy to access, but the first place I would look for verification of such things would be Bazzana's biography, and we already know what his opinion is on this subject. Do you have better citable sources in mind—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:54, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Please link me "Bazzana's biography, just to check it once entirely...Currently (1) [3] is citing from the Hungarian Biographical Lexicon (official Hungarian form), and www.nyiregyhazi.org (foreign reference) I consider the most reliable.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:49, 16 August 2018 (UTC))

I am not sure how much good it will do, but here is the GoogleBooks link to Bazzana's biography. There appears to be some discussion of the spelling of the surname on page 4, but the Google preview is limited. I believe you said you have read Bazzana's comments in the discussion earlier on this talk page, concerning the family's practice in spelling the name.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:01, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, there is precedent in Wikipedia concerning that the article subject's name is spelled the way the subject spelled it. The "S" in Harry S. Truman doesn't stand for anything - yet there is a period placed after it since that's the way Truman signed his name.MisterCSharp (talk) 17:18, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, the are more different precedents, however, according to the source reffered by Jerome Kohl, he used multiple forms so this way it is not so obviously decisive. Jerome I just thought I saw the Bazzana source, but after I realized I was wrong. I checked what you have refferred, however it is about the surname. Practically the source says, himself and others used Ervin or Erwin in Europe, in America Irwin, Irvin or rarely Irving was used by others, but himself in America either used Ervin or Erwin and very rarely an American version.

However, my original concern is many the family name that is incorrect and was incorrectly written outside Hungary since they don't use/have the charachter "í". The given source also informs us that his original family name was "Fried" and it was Magyarized to "Nyíregyházi" (unfortunately, the source systematically uses "i", but not because it is proper, but for the reason I told in the previous sentence). Since the form "Nyiregyházi" is an improper form in the Hungarian language and the fact he gained this name officially by Magyarization, it proves it could be only Nyíregyházi.

So my conclusion is, the most precise and valid would be what redirect is asked by me, the official Hungarian name, since that is undoubtfully one proper version without any possible ambigous alternatives.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:20, 17 August 2018 (UTC))

I am sorry, but I am not persuaded by your argument, which insists that the family's preferred spelling must be replaced with a theoretically correct Hungarian orthography. Perhaps other editors will be willing to voice their opinions, but consensus is necessary to change the article title.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:22, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

With reference to the comment about Harry Truman above: Note that at Wikipedia Sergei Rachmaninoff is spelled with the 'OFF' at the end, partly out of respect for how the composer spelled his own name in Western countries (indeed, his contract with RCA Victor Red Seal records insists on this spelling for his name). This despite the fact that there are alternate spellings of his name used - particularly "Rachmaninov" in England. Although we are the English language Wikipedia, when the subject is/was an American citizen, we typically use the Americanized spelling for the name. So this is further argument for keeping the articles without the diacriticals that the subject himself did not use.THD3 (talk) 13:29, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Jerome Kohl, I am sorry, the Hungarian orthography is not just theoretically correct, but officially. You are speaking about "family's preferred spelling", however, we know only one signature (however, it may be accepted also as an international form). I know that consensus is necesarry, why you'd think I don't?. THD3, there are many precendents in WP, also there are plenty of Hungarians reffered with their official Hungarian name correctly, among other's who are referred with their new official name when they acquired foreign citizenship. Or mixed. Or taking into account certain WP rules, decided by it. Every case has to be judged individually, since there are plenty examples, sometimes totally with the opposite outcome, thus some other examples does not really count. Here the case is clear, since we don't know certainly how is registered the subject as an U.S. citizen, but we know certainly how it is as a Hungarian citizen. Of course the support is on the more certain, in such a case where there are more alternatives. For me it is obvious and in my opinion to everyone else who supports accuracy.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC))

I do wish that Kevin Bazzana would re-join this conversation. In his contribution, above, he asserts that "every single surviving source, published and unpublished, and all official records, in Hungary and everywhere else, including every single instance of the name written or signed by the man himself, is spelled [without the accented I]." Now you are telling us that all Hungarian sources in fact have the accented I (despite the author's nationality, Géza Révész's article and book presumably do not count as Hungarian sources, since they were published in German). So, we have two mutually opposed, equally vehement points of view on what the facts are. Which of you are we to believe?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

You don't get the point, it is not about "believe". It is a FACT that the spelling without accented 'i' is FALSE, ask any of the approx. 15 million Hungarians or check any grammar book. However, we don't have to go so far, since Nyíregyházi means "from Nyíregyháza", and I don't have to demonstrate more what is the proper spelling. As we came to know from Bazzana, that he gained this family name by Magyarization, proves that only this form could it happen, since this is the regular and proper form of it. You know, just because the vast majority of foreign people cannot spell properly i.e. Hódmezővásárhely and they are mixing "ö" with "ő", "o" with "ó" and/or every Hungarian accent diacritics or just ignore them, it does not mean the regular form is not know properly by others. Your interpretation on "Bazzana's suggestion" is false, since I already shown you sources where it is written properly and I did not say that all Hungarian sources would spell it properly. What I said I don't have to repeat, it just have to be interpreted properly. It is a general phenomenon by foreign people that they mistake or forget the Hungarian diacritics, as well among some Hungarians regarding "i", or sometimes "ö", "ő", but never the others. That's all.(KIENGIR (talk) 02:48, 20 August 2018 (UTC))

OPPOSE' for reasons listed above by Jerome Kohl, THD3 and myself.MisterCSharp (talk) 16:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support the name is spelled Nyíregyházi - to have only one of two diacritics is just bizarre. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:57, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.