Talk:Dulduityn Danzanravjaa

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Untitled[edit]

The info about the two wifes is from Walther Heissig. IIRC, Heissig actually claims that Danzanravjaa was born in Shilin gol (I gave the book back to the library).

Sorry for the khiid monastery pleonasm. if you know a better way to phrase this, or want to expand the article a bit, pleaso do. Yaan (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Patronymic"[edit]

Dulduit was a nickname of his father and it came to be used as his patronymic. "Duldui" is a Staff (stick) used as support for walking well as means of self-defence. It seems his father always had a pair with him. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Түвшин сайхан -- may be used in future[edit]

Тvвшин сайхан сэтгэлтэн
Тvмэн зvгээс цуглараад
Тавтай сайхан ярилцаад
Юутай сайхан цуглаан бэ
Цэвэр амьсгал урьсаад
Цэнгэг сайхан халгисан
Цэцэн ухааны найртай
Цэнгэлт сайхан нутаг вэ
Бороо хур нь тэгширсэн
Бургас зvлэг нь ногоорсон
Булт шувууд цугларсан
Бузгай сайхан нутаг вэ
Дагтан ган зудгvй
Дайн дээрмийн аюулгvй
Далай жаргал бvрдсэн
Даанч сайхан нутаг вэ
Тvвшин сайхан сэтгэлтэн
Тvмэн зvгээс цуглараад
Тавтай сайхан ярилцаад
Юутай сайхан цуглаан бэ
20th century version, lyrics of a song
Source: http://www.olloo.mn/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=73529
Төвшин сайхан сэтгэлтэн
Түмэн зүгээсээ цугламаань
Төлөв сайхан найрласан
Төвтэй сайхан цуглаан бэ
Бороо хур нь дэлгэрээд
Бургас зүлэг нь ногоороод
Булт шувуу нь цуглараад
Буянтай сайхан нутаг вэ?
Луутай таягаа тулалцаад
Лүнтэн эрихээ барилцаад
Лут бат аальтай
Луу шиг сайхан эмгэд вэ
Бурхан номыг сүсэглээд
Буянтай ерөөлөө тавилцаад
Буурал цагаан үстэй
Бузгай сайхан хөгшид вэ
Өлзий бэлгээ бэлгэдээд
Үнэн үгээ хүүрнэлдээд
Өөр бусдын тусыг
Өмгөлөн бүтээгч нөхөд бий
Огторгуйн сан шиг агуу их
Оломгүй далай шиг гүнзгий
Олон шим бүрдсэн
Осолгүй хутагтын эдүүд бий
Далай дээрмийн аюул үгүй
Дамжиглах сэжиг үгүй
Дагт ган зуд үгүй
Даанч сонин цагууд бий
Би-д баригчийг дарагч
Билэг барамидыг ниргэлээд
Би үгүй номыг оносон
Бэх сайхан егүзэрүүд вэ
Амгалан хоосон даяанаар
Амьтны авралыг бүтээгээд
Арга билгийн явдлаар
Ашид бат жаргая

Source: http://on-toli.com/modules/zohiol/unshih.php?item_id=1964

Төвшин сайхан сэтгэлтэн
Түмэн зүгээсээ цуглараад
Төвтэй сайхан найрлаад
Юутай сайхан нутаг вэ
Бороо хур нь ороод
Бургас зүлэг нь ногоороод
Булт шувуу нь цуглаад
Бузгай сайхан нутаг вэ
Луутай таягаа тулаад
Лүнтэй архиа бариад
Лут бат ивээлтэй
Юутай сайхан өвгөд вэ
Бурхны номыг сонсогч
Буурьтай ерөөлийг тавигч
Буурал цагаан сахалтай
Буянтай сайхан хөгшид вэ
Өлзий билэгээ хайрлаад
Үнэн үгээ хүүрнээд
Өөр бусдад тустай
Өмөг сайхан нөхөд вэ
Би-д баригчийг ниргэлээд
Билиг барамидыг эзэмшээд
Би үгүй чанарыг танисан
Бэх сайхан егүзэрүүд вэ
Оломгүй далай шиг гүнзгий
Огтогуйн гүн шиг уужим
Охь шим нь бүрдсэн
Оюу номын хутагт вэ
Дагтан ган зудгүй
Дайн дээрмийн аюулгүй
Далай цэнгэлээр бүрдсэнд
Даяараа хамт жаргая.

Source: Агнистын гэгээ

Many other beautiful Buddhist poems by the Khutukhtu: http://biznetwork.mn/network/topic/show/4420

Gantuya eng (talk) 16:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My updates[edit]

  • Added ISBN for Michael Kohn book.
  • Added another book to the bibliography.
  • Added new section: List of Gobi Noyon Hutagt incarnations.
  • Added new sectiion: Further reading and links at the moment list is imported from Mongol Studies, Online Reference.
  • List of references was broken. It was cross-referenced to links within ending of the text. References for the information given were not listed. Kept the links, dropping references. in the text.
  • Consulting with Michael Kohn book and resources available online, started outline for expanded main article. There are many versions of life events of Danzan Ravjaa, i am personally taking side of M. Kohn in regards to discovery and enthronment. In regards to theearly travels of Danzan Ravjaa with one of his parents, some scholars say it maybe mother, and most believe it was the father I believe both versions should be presented outlining M. Kohn research. Sherabgyatso (talk) 02:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Working draft for the main article[edit]

Dulduityn Danzanravjaa (Mongolian: Дулдуйтын Данзанравжаа) is a Mongolian adaptation of last part of the Tibetan name Lobsang Tenzin Rabgye given to Danzan Ravjaa by the 4th Bogd Gegeen, on his visit to the Mongolian capitol Urga (present-day Ulaanbaatar) in 1812 where Danzan Ravjaa was also recognized as an Incarnate Lama (Tib: Tulku). There are several versions about origins and use of "Dulduityn". He was 5th incarnation of Gobi Noyon Hutagt, which is the title of a prominent line of tulkus of the Nyingmapa lineage of Tibetan Buddhism in Mongolia and was found by the personal attendant of the 4th Noyon Hutagt in 1809. It was not possible to enthrone Danzan Ravjaa as the 5th Noyon Hutagt because of the ban from ruling Manchu Dynasty on recognition of this line of incarnations. Mongolia at the time was under Manchurian Qing control. He was enthroned as Avshaa Gegeen in Ongiin Gol (present-day Saikhan-Ovoo) draft by: Sherabgyatso (talk) 05:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit dispute:[edit]

As I like to keep an eye on this page because of my personal interest, I come back now and then.

Following edit is a bit strange:

"Danzanravjaa was born in the Tüsheet Khan aimag's Gobi Mergen khoshuu, in what is today Khövsgöl sum of Dornogovi aimag. His family was poor and his mother died while he was still young. He and his father survived by begging and singing until 1809, when he was accepted as a disciple of Ishdoniilkhundev at the Onggiyin Ghool Monastery. He was quickly acknowledged for his literary talent. The monasteries he established at Galbyn Uul became religious centers and served as religious crossroads between Mongolia, China, and Tibet during his lifetime. Other than his writings he was also known for his combination of Yellow Hat and Red Hat sect beliefs.

As a member of the Nyingma school of Buddhism Danzan Ravja was not required to refrain from alcohol or sexual relationships, and he was well known for his love of both. He frequently referred to the ecstasy he experienced with his lovers and took two wives. He also frequently referred to himself as a "boozer" (sokhtakhu) in his writing.[3]

Danzan Ravjaa was unique in Mongolia for his times because he had a concern for public education. At his Khamar Monastery he established a public library, museum, and primary school in addition to a professional public theater company called Saran Khukhuu. The primary school was original for pre-revolutionary Mongolia since it had a non-secular curriculum focused on Mongolian and Tibetan literacy, mathematics, natural science, and history. Graduates often went on to work in the theater company.[4][5]

He is famous for writing poetry and creating

Danzanravjaa wrote in Mongolian and Tibetan, and created over 300 poems and more than hundred songs. Among the most famous are the "Savior Mantra" and the song "Ulemjiin Chanar" praising the beauty of the Mongolian woman. He also wrote the first Mongolian drama, Moon Cuckoo (Saran khökhöö).

Joint Austrian-Mongolian expedition led by Michael Eisenriegler found Danzanravjaa treasures hidden in Gobi Desert. These artifacts are on display at the Danzan Ravjaa Museum in Sainshand. [6]"

1st, there was no discussion on the talk page about the edit, it looks like it was just put up, along with it there was some content that was deleted, with no reason given. The content above is not written well, obvious points are: Here: "Other than his writings he was also known for his combination of Yellow Hat and Red Hat sect beliefs..." then: "As a member of the Nyingma school of Buddhism Danzan Ravja..." these seem partially contradictory.

2nd, whole lot of it does not make sense.

This edit here:

"As a member of the Nyingma school of Buddhism Danzan Ravja was not required to refrain from alcohol or sexual relationships, and he was well known for his love of both. He frequently referred to the ecstasy he experienced with his lovers and took two wives. He also frequently referred to himself as a "boozer" (sokhtakhu) in his writing.[3]"

Seems to replace more respectful and informative one here: "As a high incarnate Lama of Nyingmapa lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, Danzanravjaa did not hold celibacy to be the highest expression of lifestyle of the spiritual practitioner. He had several partners and was survived by a son."

Overall this here is erroneous: "As a member of the Nyingma school of Buddhism Danzan Ravja was not required to refrain from alcohol or sexual relationships, and he was well known for his love of both"

Nyingma only applies to the Tibetan Buddhist Tradition and it is not an organization (especially in far-away Mongolia), thus membership is not possible, rather i would say a "following", no follower of any of the Tibetan Buddhist Traditions is required to refrain from sexual relationships. The question here is in what is more important for a particular person / Lama to become a celibate monk or to be a householder. - To each their own.

Truncated: "He is famous for writing poetry and creating"

Makes inconclusive statement: "Danzan Ravjaa was unique in Mongolia for his times because he had a concern for public education."

-It is likely that we will never know about what is called concerns of others, However we do know about actual efforts of the Danzan Ravjaa.

This here seems to be not used correctly: "The primary school was original for pre-revolutionary Mongolia since it had a non-secular curriculum focused on Mongolian and Tibetan literacy, mathematics, natural science, and history." -Sounds very secular to me.

Why following list was deleted without note? List of Gobi Noyon Hutagt incarnations

List and dates according to Michael Kohn: 

   1. Agvangonchig (1621–1703)
   2. Jamyn Dambi Jantzen (1704–1739)
   3. Jamyn Danzan (1740–1765)
   4. Jamyn Oidov Jampts (1765–1800)
   5. Luvson Danzan Ravjaa (1803–1856)
   6. Luvson Dambi Jantzen Odzer (1855–1875)
   7. Agvan Luvsan Dambi Jantzen (1891–1931)
   8. Samdan Jampts (1933–1945)

All of the above was done by user G8briel who does not seem to use "Talk" page of the Article. This is not a good form. Sherabgyatso (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:34, 17 March 2012 (UTC).[reply]

I think you are getting too worried over nothing here. First, it is worth pointing out that my edits were extensive because there was not much there in the first place. Secondly, if you see something wrong then it would be a good idea to edit it yourself. I suggest you check my sources and if there is a problem make the appropriate adjustments. I don't pretend to be an expert on this topic. I simply read about this guy while doing research for the MonReference wiki project some years ago, thought he was cool, and so spent a decent amount of time adding to this article based on that research. A lot of the content was brought in from the MonReference wiki, which is on the same license as Wikipedia. I brought it over because it became clear that MonReference was not going to take off and clearly the content would be better served here.
I agree that I could have posted something to the talk page, but I definitely disagree that it is bad form to make the extensive edit that I did. Wikipedia encourages editors to be be bold. Also, I did put in an edit note indicating why he content was added, as you can see in the history. Since the article has been so poorly developed at the point when I contributed it really didn't seem like a big deal to get things rolling on this entry.
I'm also going to address some of your complaints about places where I changed content that was already in the article.
  • I edited out the list of Gobi Noyon Hutagt incarnations because it looked like it had simply been thrown in there for no good reason. I agree that I should have put something on the talk page first. I didn't because there had been so little activity on this article at the point that I made my edit. I still think that it should stay off and possibly made into its own entry on Gobi Noyon Hutagt, in a similar way that Dalai Lama and the 14th Dalai Lama have separate entries.
  • You took issue with the statement, "As a member of the Nyingma school of Buddhism Danzan Ravja was not required to refrain from alcohol or sexual relationships, and he was well known for his love of both. He frequently referred to the ecstasy he experienced with his lovers and took two wives. He also frequently referred to himself as a "boozer" (sokhtakhu) in his writing." saying that the previous statement, "As a high incarnate Lama of Nyingmapa lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, Danzanravjaa did not hold celibacy to be the highest expression of lifestyle of the spiritual practitioner. He had several partners and was survived by a son." You said that the previous entry was more respectful and informative. I assume that you are referring to the "boozer" reference as disrespectful, which I disagree with since the claim is made in writing by Danzanravjaa according to the source cited. Furthermore, it actually has more detail, so it's more informative. Also, the previous statement lacked a source. Consult with the source I used here http://www.iias.nl/nl/40/IIAS_NL40_19.pdf
  • You take issue with the details about Danzanravjaa's affiliation with Nyingma Buddhism, but my source explicitly states that "That Danzanravjaa was a lama of the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism." If you have a better source on this count by all means go with it. If, however, Danzanravjaa and the society he lived in considered him a member of the Nyingma Buddhism then I would argue it should stay that way.
  • You state that the sentence The primary school was original for pre-revolutionary Mongolia since it had a non-secular curriculum focused on Mongolian and Tibetan literacy, mathematics, natural science, and history, is incorrect in its usage of the word secular, which I agree with. That was a mistake. I'm just wondering why you didn't edit it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by G8briel (talk • contribs) 06:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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