Talk:Derry/Archive 9

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Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2015

Derry (/ˈdɛrɪ/[2]), is the second-largest city in Northern Ireland[3][4] and the fourth-largest city on the island of Ireland.[5] The name Derry is an anglicisation of the Irish name Daire or Doire meaning "oak grove".[6][7] In 1613, the city was granted a Royal Charter by King James I and gained the "London" prefix to reflect the funding of its construction by the London guilds. While the city is more usually known officially as Derry,[8][9] Londonderry is also commonly used.

Nathannev (talk) 18:34, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

No change made. That's rather premature. It may still not be done same as last time. Dmcq (talk) 19:46, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Looks like it's actually been approved this time? [http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/council-votes-to-rename-londonderry-as-derry-1.2296065 (Irish Times) 12.5.163.8 (talk) 21:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
If you read that article, it says: "The council is now contacting Stormont's SDLP Environment Minister Mark H Durkan, who is from Derry himself, on how it might proceed with the change. Derry City and Strabane District Council is seeking clarification from Stormont on how it could go about officially changing the name of the city but this is likely to be challenged by unionists at every stage". So, the name change hasn't happened yet. Indeed, it seems that the vote was actually on a motion to seek information from Durkan about how to change the name, rather than a vote to change the name per se. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Of the five news sites that have been linked on this page (scroll up to see Tóraí's three), only the Derry Journal has that wording for the motion. The Irish Times, the BBC and RTÉ all say "a vote to change the name of the city was passed...The council is now contacting Stormont’s SDLP Environment Minister Mark H Durkan" or a variation thereof. The Irish Independent quotes Eric McGinley (as does the Derry Journal) saying "We would propose today that Derry City and Strabane District Council seeks to change the name of the city back to Derry and in that context writes to the DoE Minister seeking clarity of the process that will allow that to proceed", but they don't say that that was the wording of the motion. I think that the wording should be reverted to "the council voted in favour of changing the official name of the city to Derry", and add that the council is to write to Mark Durkan for advice on how to proceed. Scolaire (talk) 23:58, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I've just watched the recording of the proposal being made and voted on, and that McGinley quote does seem correct (plus or minus a few words). Modifying your suggestion somewhat, may I suggest something along the lines of "the council voted in favour of a motion to change the official name of the city to Derry, and writing to environment minister Mark Durkan to enquire as to how such a name change could take place"? Cordless Larry (talk) 10:37, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
That's fine, with just two suggestions: it should be "and write", not "and writing", and I would say "to ask how the change could be effected" rather than "to enquire as to how such a name change could take place". Scolaire (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
The article Derry/Londonderry name dispute has been updated to say about the vote. I don't think it is worth taking any note of it in this article until it gets a lot further along. Dmcq (talk) 13:12, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
I've changed the wording as discussed above, to avoid any misrepresentation of the motion. If there is consensus to do so, it can be removed, but I think it's worth mentioning myself. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree. It's a fairly lengthy "Name" section, so mentioning this significant development does not give undue weight. Scolaire (talk) 14:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
If the name of the city is changed on official levels, will it bring to an end the FADH page move discussions that spring up on this page every week? The only argument has ever been the rather weak "but it's official..." line. --109.149.122.34 (talk) 21:28, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
ASide of the fact there is also a High Court decision that affirms Londonderry as the name and that several British media outlets use Londonderry too. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 21:49, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I would presume that if the official name changes, usage in media would probably shift more towards Derry. Nothing's certain yet though. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
"British media outlets use Londonderry too." - The BBC at least use Derry/L'Derry interchangeably (very few outlets have set rules on this). And it isn't just their Irish correspondents doing that...--109.149.122.34 (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

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Edit Request

I'd like to make an addition to section 13 entitled Notable People to add Nobel Laureate William C. Campbell (scientist). He accepted his Nobel prize for medicine this week. Ideally it would be directly after the two other Nobel Laureates Seamus Heaney and John Hume.

Ref: http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1210/752551-nobel/ 90.203.94.166 (talk) 22:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)Francis J Coyle 12/12/2015

Done ----Snowded TALK 05:35, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I have corrected the description of the prize from peace to medicine and added a couple of references. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:27, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
cool ----Snowded TALK 09:48, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2016

The City is Officially named Derry/Londonderry so why isn't the Wikipedia page accurate, I'm not from Ireland but this page is not at all accurate with the name it has, the name one Wikipeadia as well as the Google Knowledge Graph should include BOTH names instead of an incorrect one Nikolasmav (talk) 14:49, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

The Google Knowledge Graph is Google's doing, not Wikipedia's. This article gives both names and says the official name is Londonderry but follows the policy WP:COMMONNAME for the title. I think you need to complain to Google. If they have some automated way of extracting information that doesn't require a violation of Wikipedia's policies that will do something more like what you say then I'm sure editors here would be willing to give it a go. Dmcq (talk) 15:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Not done - Unsurprisingly, this has been discussed numerous times before, we even have an entire article on Derry/Londonderry name dispute
As far as this article is concerned, please see the red box at the top of this talk page:-
Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry.
This consensus was reached in accordance with Wikipedia's WP:COMMONNAME policy, to use the common name, in English, rather than the official name. - Arjayay (talk) 15:08, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
That's interesting. I just stuck Ireland into Google and it came up with the 'Republic of Ireland' entry on the right rather than the one for the island. It must have some funny business going on in it. Dmcq (talk) 15:09, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

If this matter has been discussed many times it is because the truth is being ignored. Someone needs to take decisive action and change the name of the article to Londonderry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.149.66.179 (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

One editor can't act unilaterally to rename the article - see WP:CONSENSUS. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

looking at it again, the official name is Londonderry and nobody has proved that Londonderry isn't also the common name. I think Londonderry is the common name too, because I hear it alot on the news. So either way the article should be named Londonderry. I can see no case at all for the article to be named Derry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.149.66.179 (talk) 14:34, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I presented some data suggesting that Derry is the more common name in the RfC at Talk:Derry/Archive 8. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
As a matter of interest, what evidence did you use to come to the conclusion that 'nobody has proved that Londonderry isn't also the common name'? Dmcq (talk) 16:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

If in doubt, use the official name. I see plenty of doubt that Derry is the common name. The official name is very widely used and I can't see any justification for religiously insisting upon avoiding it. Which is what is going on here. 112.210.17.121 (talk) 13:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

If in doubt check the figures. Dmcq (talk) 00:53, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

What figures? If it has to come down to a dubious argument about figures that nobody can confirm one way or the other, then stick to the official name. Somebody should just change this and stop wasting time with this pointless argument. 180.191.118.72 (talk) 13:31, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

If you would just look at previous discussions for instance the one pointed out above in this very discussion you will see what is meant by the figures. Please stop assuming editors here are stupid and lazy. Dmcq (talk) 22:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I have just had a look at what other articles you edit and it led me to the flag of Northern Ireland. I see that many of those who dismiss the official name of Londonderry take the complete opposite approach when it comes to the flag of Northern Ireland. They ignore the common usage of that flag and emphasize the fact that it is not an official flag. So if they are so concerned that the official position must be adopted in that regard, why the insistence that the official position be disregarded with regards to Londonderry? I actually would accept common usage of Derry if there was overwhelming evidence that it was always used in everyday speech to the total exclusion of Londonderry, but that is not the case. The public are divided, and there is no meaningful way to demonstrate that Derry is the common name. In such a divided situation, the official name must prevail. 112.210.17.121 (talk) 02:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

You simply refuse to look at the evidence don't you? As far as the flag is concerned the Northern Ireland Assembly have rejected it. I am quite happy to have that article start with the Ulster Banner but have the article saying that there is currently no official national flag. It is still called the Northern Ireland flag but many Unionists now want to see different flag represent Northern Ireland. It has become a sectarian marker and is dragging down the Union Jack with it. Dmcq (talk) 08:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes I've gathered that you don't like the Northern Ireland flag or the fact that Northern Ireland's second city is called Londonderry. But are you for common usage, or are you for officialdom? If you're for common usage then this article should revert to its official name since its official name is in widespread common use. I just picked this out at random there now. It's the most up to date news, and it uses the name Londonderry http://www.bbc.com/news/northern_ireland 120.29.76.131 (talk) 13:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC) And just in case the news changes, here is the article itself, dated 12th April 2016 just to show I didn't have to look too hard to find it http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-36022287 120.29.76.131 (talk) 13:51, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@IP that article on the BBC is written in the BBC "manual of style", here is RTÉ using Derry, from theirs. There has been a lot of discussion on this, and if you would read the archives you would see points and counter points each way like the one I have just highlighted. Is it the best system? I don't know, does it work, only if peopel adhere to it, and btw they don't, on either side. Murry1975 (talk) 14:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
The title of an article comes under the WP:COMMONNAME policy. The Ulster Banner is described under 'Flag of Northern Ireland" as the flag of Northern Ireland. That is in accordance with that policy. If Wikipedia followed official names then it would not be in that article, nothing would be there. This article says the official name of Derry is Londonderry, and it says that in the very first sentence. I want the flag article to say in the first sentence that there is no official flag for Northern Ireland. That has not been done. If you are such a supporter of the government why do you wish to oppose it? Most people in Northern Ireland no longer support that flag and only about a sixth support all those flags being displayed on lampposts all over the place. That is quite different from the case of Derry in the literature and in the city. Dmcq (talk) 23:08, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The idea is to present the facts as they are and not to present them as you would like them to be. You've made it quite clear whose side of the political divide you are on, but the facts of the matter are that Londonderry is the official name as well as being in widespread common use. 122.2.113.255 (talk) 06:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

And checking the facts or presenting the facts is exactly what I asked for rather than attacking me. Please have a look at the previous discussion of why WP:COMMONNAME supports Derry and say why it is wrong rather than just strongly asserting you are right. Wikipedia is supposed to be based on sources rather than editors opinions. Dmcq (talk) 08:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I presented a source but you ignored it. I presented you with an up to date BBC news item which just happened to have a headline using the official name Londonderry. That is all the evidence that is needed to prove that the official name is in common use. It's neither here nor there that somebody else can produce another article that uses Derry. Both are in common use and so the official name takes precedence. You have failed to prove that Derry is commonly used to the total exclusion of the official name. 122.2.121.104 (talk) 09:53, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME does not require that anyone prove that Derry is commonly used to the total exclusion of the official name. Please read it properly. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:58, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Where there is contention, the official name should prevail otherwise dedicated groups of separatists could write things the way they wanted them to be. Did the same people write this WP:COMMONNAME rule as are the ones pushing here for Derry? 122.2.121.104 (talk) 17:09, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Dedicated groups of separatists can't dictate what the most commonly used name in reliable sources is. If you want to suggest a change to WP:COMMONNAME, then I suggest taking it up at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Cordless Larry (talk) 17:32, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

They can get a majority. And that's all that's needed. Your rules are a fiction. 122.2.121.104 (talk) 18:49, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The majority of reliable sources are written by dedicated groups of separatists? I think it's time to drop the stick. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:02, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

It's impossible to tell what the majority of sources say, never mind reach agreement on which of these sources are reliable. So stick to the official name. 120.29.76.131 (talk) 06:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Links to this article

This occasional gnome would appreciate some advice from more knowledgeable editors please. Telephone numbers in the United Kingdom is on my watchlist and I recently reverted an edit. Noticing that the IP 82.152.123.85 was blocked, I looked at its other contributions. They mainly consisted of about 100 changes from Londonderry to Derry, of which I reverted eight according to my understanding of WP:DERRY. Today, IP 31.54.230.161 has repeated the edit and made similar contributions. I don't want to start an edit war on this controversial topic but I would be grateful if a neutral editor could take a look at edits such as this one (relevant reference) and take any appropriate action. I'm no policy expert so I'm unclear as to whether the episode's actual title is permitted on Wikipedia or if the L word is to be shortened here. Thanks for your help, Certes (talk) 00:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually WP:DERRY supports Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county in references. It is just a guideline but has admin sanctions backing it because of all the trouble on Ireland related articles. I would like to see something which would allow the use of Londonderry for the city much more widely and so would like to see that guideline changed to say something like the articles should reflect their sources when they refer to the city. Unfortunately changing that guideline to something more flexible is just seen as opening the floodgates to edit wars by some editors and they don't want it and the city must be one or the other everywhere. I agree this article should be titled Derry but I wouldn't change Londonderry to Derry in a link if Londonderry seems reasonable in the situation as I disagree with the guideline. But you'll find plenty of other's rushing around to do it. Dmcq (talk) 08:54, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
On the specifics of Great British Railway Journeys 'Goes to Ireland - Ballymoney to Londonderry' I would say WP:DERRY supports Londonderry in the actual title of the programme but supports Derry in the description of the programme. And it gets more complicated as in does it refer to the actual train station rather than the city? Just going by the major sources or even by the author who bothered to put it in if unsure would solve a lot of problems like that. Dmcq (talk) 09:26, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Thank you; that helps. I understand that WP requires the name Derry for the city, which is why I did not revert about 100 changes which simply altered the city's name. I am specifically asking whether we must "correct" the way that a third party has chosen to refer to the city when naming something else after the city, and your second reply addresses that point well. Another example in case anyone else wants to provide an opinion:
  • BT created, and Ofcom maintains, a telephone dialling area (not coterminous with the city or county) which it calls "Londonderry". Should we change references to that dialling area in WP to "Derry" because it is probably named after the city?
I realise that these questions themselves are pretty trivial but they are examples of a systematic change. It's clear from talk that the IP editor feels strongly about the name, and I'm hoping for either some support for my reverts or a reason to back off. Certes (talk) 09:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
That's a more difficult one but going from for example "Belfast(90&95)" in Ofcom I believe the names are not titles but descriptions. However there is also the problem of Derry versus County Londonderry and do they mean a much larger area than the city? Looking again it seems pretty evident it follows the city pretty closely so I would say Derry is correct by the guideline. It is certainly debatable. But personally I would leave Londonderry for the area code if that was there because that is what the main sources say and I don't believe in doing things I disagree with. Dmcq (talk) 10:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. For everything else in regards to organisational names etc. use what they use so for example: South Derry Darts League, Londonderry Port, Diocese of Derry and Raphoe, Londonderry Island, and Marquess of Londonderry. If BT and Ofcom use Londonderry as the name of their telephone dialing area then that is the name of that area regardless of anyone else, but then again they are British companies/organisations using the official name of a British city and county. Having said that, any mention of the actual city or county within that area must abide by IMOS. Mabuska (talk) 13:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I see here far too much concern being given to how certain people would like the facts to be, rather than concern about reporting the facts as they actually are. This is an abuse of the project. 122.2.121.104 (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Please understand that this is a most unusual, perhaps unique situation in which Wikipedians have reached a consensus to view the facts from a particular angle. I was simply trying to establish in which cases the consensus allows "reporting the facts as they actually are", and which require those facts to be rephrased in a more sensitive way. I found the responses above very helpful and have reverted a small minority of the changes I reviewed, though most of those changes have since been reinstated. Certes (talk) 22:22, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
This is how Great British Railway Journeys should look. The episode name is not subject to IMOS so it should use Londonderry, however the mention of the city in the summary is simply prose and is thus subject to IMOS and has thus been changed to Derry. Having said that if those summaries are direct quotes from the BBC page as it does indeed seem to be, then I may be wrong on the Derry changes, especially if they are meant to be quotes? Mabuska (talk) 22:46, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
I would have though taking the descriptions direct from the BBC website would be problematic on copyright grounds. Dmcq (talk) 08:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
On that, see Talk:Great British Railway Journeys#Closely paraphrased BBC summaries. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:06, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
Reading that I get the impression Londonderry should be used for all instances then? Clarify please. Mabuska (talk) 00:53, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I don't think it has implications for the name - it just means that the episode summaries should be paraphrased rather than copied directly. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:27, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2016

Add Hilary McClintock as the mayor of Derry. 2601:C0:8003:D610:9046:F6DC:7F32:56C3 (talk) 23:58, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

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Cough, cough, Derry?

Why exactly is the not common at all, "common name" the official page title? The last time I checked the town was called Londonderry, most certainly not "Derry." 86.169.23.4 (talk) 19:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article devoted to the Derry/Londonderry name dispute complete with more than a hundred references which will probably tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the name of this place. Jonathunder (talk) 20:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
I know all about it and have been involved in quite a few arguments about it myself, what I mean is; why is the article titled "Derry" when the city is and has been called Londonderry for hundreds of years? 31.49.27.167 (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
The title is according to the WP:COMMONNAME policy rather than the non-policy WP:OFFICIALNAME. Derry is the common name by a very wide margin. Dmcq (talk) 22:58, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
And there is no evidence that Derry is commonname... Rather than revert to the official name policy - as would be logical in a situation such as this - there is instead an annual debate on renaming the page, which always fails - primarily due to the demographic of the talk page. Brythones (talk) 13:19, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
I presented some statistical evidence in the RfC above. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:21, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Instead of going on about demographics how about presenting your own evidence about what the common name is, or even (cough cough) actually looking at the evidence already presented and saying exactly what is wrong with it? And as I said before WP:OFFICIALNAME is not policy - please read it and not call it policy. Dmcq (talk) 14:05, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
WP:COMMONNAME is pointless on this issue considering both names are common. Mabuska (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
The policy states that Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used. Both can be common - the question is which is the most common. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:50, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Isn't anyone in the least interested in doing something about WP:DERRY instead? It has Derry or County Londonderry being used everywhere in other articles even when it is obviously stupid and not in the main citations. Dmcq (talk) 20:26, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

As it says at the top of the page, "the agreed COMPROMISE for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute" ... "compromise" means doing drawing a line in the sand and saying "right, we can talk about this all day but we need to make a decision so let's go with this". So that means unless we did something daft like rename it That big city on the Foyle, we will never have an article title that everybody likes, ever. If we renamed it to "Londonderry", you'd have a bunch of people coming in here making exactly the same complaints from the other side. The current name is going to piss some people off. We get it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:26, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

That compromise is a separate business from the title of this article. The title of this article comes under the WP:COMMONNAME part of the WP:TITLE which is a Wikipedia policy and WP:IMOS cannot override that. That compromise to use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county practically everywhere within articles is part of WP:IMOS which is a guideline and that part can be changed by agreement at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. Dmcq (talk) 13:03, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

This is absolute nonsense. The article for the city that most people refer to as Newcastle is still called Newcastle upon Tyne. The WP:COMMONNAME policy clearly doesn't apply there. The official name of this city is Londonderry. Whether or not that is suits certain people politically is neither here nor there. This is an encyclopedia, a place for fact, not compromise for the sake of appeasing the political views of some of others. 92.14.232.192 (talk) 16:44, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Agreed: there is no clear common name, so the official name should be used in this case. Brythones (talk) 00:56, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
In fact, I would argue common name applies in this case. The vast majority of businesses in the city actually use Derry, rather than Londonderry, albeit some use both. But putting that aside, an argument on the talk page won't change anything. The situation at the minute is a compromise and is now in the manual of style. You need to go to the WikiProject if you want to start another debate on the issue. st170e 01:20, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
The difference between Newcastle and "Derry", is that calling the city Newcastle upon Tyne is not offensive. To some people in Derry, it is a symbol of British occupation, oppression and supremacy. Where do you think the London part came from? However, I don't think people in unionist communities should have to feel they have to call the city Derry, in the same way I don't think people from nationalists communities should feel they have to call the county they live in Londonderry. I would suggest for towns, naming the county, Derry, if the town has a Nationalist majority (sourced from Census) and Londonderry if it has a Unionist majority. I don't think many people in Dungiven would say they are from County Londonderry and similarly not many in the Fountain would see themselves as being in Derry City. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhdhdhdh69 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
That has been suggested before but the "status quo" is always the winner despite how much a majority of editors disagree with it for one reason or another. Though the London part being added had nothing to do with supremacy, oppression or occupation, but in reference to the London guilds that funded the building of the city. Mabuska (talk) 20:15, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I think it would be nice to allow WP:DERRY to be less definitive so we don't have references to Derry in articles where the citations mainly refer to Londonderry, for example in bios of Unionists. But the whole business is Balkanized and nobody will budge an inch. Dmcq (talk) 23:41, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I think using census data to infer what the common name of places is would be original research, but in any case, the census does not ask about constitutional preference. Cordless Larry (talk) 05:56, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

There should be no argument here. This online encyclopedia is meant to deal in facts. The fact is that the city is called Londonderry, not Derry. You can acknowledge in the text that it is often referred to as Derry by very many people, but that is not its name and there is absolutely, categorically no justification for this entry under Derry other than sheer bigotry on the part of whoever regulates this stuff. This stuff about a common name is sheer smokescreen, it does not apply uniformly across Wikipedia, as has been proved on many, many occasions by other contributors. It's a nonsense argument anyway - as soon as you detour from the accepted facts, your credibility - and your usefulness - is called into considerable question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.88.36 (talk) 15:17, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

You're quite right but there is nothing we can do any more. It is beyond absurd that the title of this article is not the official and widely used name. However this is the nature of wikipedia these days - get enough obsessives to engineer a "consensus" on something and they can lock it down.
You'll note that Bombay is called "Mumbai" because that is now the official name. They even changed Calcutta to "Kolkata"! That's just the same name with a different pronunciation and something like 99% of English speakers still say Calcutta and probably always will. So - on this article and many others - there's little consistency and it's nothing to do with what's official or what's widely used etc it's purely a political fight. And on the question of Londonderry there are enough people who are determined to push the "Derry" name and consistently turned up to flood the voting on it that it will likely never be changed. For those of us who aspire to be as neutral as possible it is very dispiriting but we are defeated on this article. Wikipedia of course has many strengths but we have to accept a big weakness is the lack of a single editor who adheres to encyclopaedic standards who would of course insist on the correct name being used - that was a strength of the old fashioned style encyclopaedias. If we just used official names, in this case Londonderry, it would allow us to keep wikipedia above any political arguments. But alas that seems unlikely now.
"If we just used official names, in this case Londonderry, it would allow us to keep wikipedia above any political arguments" - ah, the irony... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:25, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
No irony at all, it's very standard practice in publishing and any credible encyclopaedia takes exactly that approach. Why do think so many people who don't care whether it's called Londonderry or Derry find the way this articule has been politicised frustrating? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.155.44 (talk) 23:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2017

The city is legally called Londonderry, why is it insisted on calling it 'Derry'? I request that the name is therefore changed to its legal name. Adam Queens University Belfast Adamc555 (talk) 16:08, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: This issue has been asked and answered; see the messages at the top of this talk page. Thanks, —KuyaBriBriTalk 16:14, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Specifically, see Derry/Londonderry name dispute. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:15, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Also see the Wikipedia policy on this WP:COMMONNAME and guidance about official names at WP:Official names Dmcq (talk) 19:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 September 2017

Please change Derry in all forms to Londonderry, given the amount of people who died in the Troubles to ensure Ulster remained a British territory. The city remains, as it has been, named Londonderry. Keepulsterbritish (talk) 18:17, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 18:19, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Are you serious? Supply reliable sources for this change? How about accuracy? This remarkable discussion has been going on here for years now. And it's the reason I don't use Wikipedia or contribute to it, because its editors have either been bullied into accepting the existing situation, or they are so biased that accuracy takes second place in their priorities. I'm not getting into it all again, but the official, proper, accurate and correct name of this city is Londonderry - as this entry accepts in its opening three words - yet the entry head is 'Derry'. This is indefensible, misleading, inaccurate and has no place in a service such as Wikipedia. Sort yourselves out! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.211.34 (talk) 14:09, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Derry name NPOV

Why is this article called Derry? isn't wikipedia policy to follow the official name of a place? As by the very nature of calling it Derry the article is taking a POV stance in favour of nationalist political position.

I appreciate this could be a catch 22, as its equally arguable that calling Londonderry is a Unionist POV, but NI remains part of the UK, and as such it's official name should be used.

At the very least a POV tag should be applied as the article isn't NPOV from the outset.

Maybe the solution is rename the article Londonderry/Derry? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:DA42:200:803C:5BAC:6B72:375A (talk) 11:05, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

See the replies to the query just before this one. Dmcq (talk) 16:05, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Also on Stroke City see WP:POVNAMING, this is not allowed in the policy on NPOV. Dmcq (talk) 16:21, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

But is by its very nature then, the article is pushing a POV with its title and a tag should be added should it not?

No a tag should not be added. Tags are to identify issues for editors to deal with. There is no editorial issue needing to be deal with. The very first statement in the article points to the issue and there is a section about the name. Dmcq (talk) 19:49, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
The IP is correct however in the lack of NPOV in the article title. Though the lede does state straight after Derry that it is officially Londonderry, so there is no need for tagging or alteration unless the IMOS "consensus" is changed. Mabuska (talk) 09:03, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
This article is fine by general Wikipedia policy, it is the forcing by IMOS of the exclusive use of Derry in other articles that is not in line with how things are normally done on Wikipedia. I'd like to change that but it seems editors on Wikipedia have an all or nothing mentality. Luckily the inhabitants of the city are far more flexible. Dmcq (talk) 09:42, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

The city and county should just be renamed to avoid conflict all together. derry/londonderry would make sense, you often see stuff like that. Here is an example --> https://www.google.ie/search?q=derry/londonderry+bus+stop&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt8YCqsOvWAhXLE5QKHTA5A98Q_AUICygC&biw=1093&bih=522#imgrc=euLQNqCtuyewXM: Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 15:17, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Stroke names like Gdańsk/Danzig are specifically banned on Wikipedia. One name has to be chosen and the other redirected to it. Dmcq (talk) 16:47, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2017

Wahalla123 (talk) 09:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

i am asking top alter the name from derry to londonderry which is the offical name for this beautiful city

No, your desire for a change is not enough. Have you read the top of this page and the various other requests on this page and the responses? And don't get the idea that because the only requests here are to go from Derry to Londonderry that is a majority opinion about the usual name, if it were the other way there would be lots for the other way. This has been a very contentious subject and the city will be a bit more beautiful for having less arguing over it and more give and take. Dmcq (talk) 09:56, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Highly dubious claims Dmcq. Most opinion here is for status quo on the compromise because editors are either unwilling to go there thinking any alternative will lead to utter mayhem (nonsense) or believe in the pro-Derry arguments (also based on nonsense). The city would be more beautiful if the anti-British bigots would respect its official name and let the issue pass. Oh and by the way in regards to the other way, I don't see continued requests to change County Londonderry to Derry at its talk page so maybe your wrong on that. But who knows. Mabuska (talk) 13:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
There are just as many requests there currently to change it to County Derry as there are requests to change this to Londonderry. Personally I think the case for County Londonderry is good and I am not saying it should be changed to County Derry. I am not going going to start calling people in Derry bigots who should just shut up and think of Britain and I do not think such a suggestion would make the place beautiful. Dmcq (talk) 15:21, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
As the official name is Londonderry I don't see any NPOV reason for the article being "Derry". That's just privileging one political POV above the reality, which is that the city is called Londonderry. I would support a change.--Fahrenheit666 (talk) 11:20, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
You've been on Wikipedia long enough to read what is said about this at the top of the page and above on this page and not start making up your own reasons for why it is called Derry and attributing that to others. Dmcq (talk) 12:28, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I have read it; I just don't see any need for a compromise. The city is called Londonderry. There isn't any actual doubt about this.--Fahrenheit666 (talk) 21:28, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
On Wikipedia the relevant policy in WP:COMMONNAME not WP:OFFICIALNAME so once you convince the people there to conform with the uncompromised truth you can then change the name here. Dmcq (talk) 23:17, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Throughout the UK its common name is Londonderry.--Fahrenheit666 (talk) 15:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
As far as I can see from my checks it isn't. I have provided evidence before of a big difference the other way which you can find in the archives. If you have some evidence to back up your belief then please show it rather than just asserting things. Dmcq (talk) 16:29, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
"Derry" is blantantly against WP:NPOV. "Londonderry" has some basis as the official name of the city, but my preference would be to rename the Derry article to Derry/Londonderry and the County Londonderry article to County Derry/Londonderry. Brythones (talk) 17:02, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
On what basis do you say it is non-neutral? The beginning of WP:NPOV says 'as far as possible, without editorial bias'. That is exactly the reason Derry is there instead of Londonderry. It is the most common name for the city. Please see WP:NAME on how names for articles are chosen. That Londonderry is the official name would only count if Londonderry was somewhere in the same league in usage. Dmcq (talk) 17:11, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with Dmcq. The vast majority of the city's residents call it Derry and is the most commonly used name for the city. Given that Derry was never the official name of the county, I don't see a particular reason to upset the status quo and "stroke-name" it (which, as far as I can remember, does not have community consensus). st170e 17:18, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Putting in both alternatives with a slash is explicitly banned in WP:NAMES. There was a long argument over this for Gdańsk where people suggested Gdańsk/Danzig as a title. Dmcq (talk) 17:21, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

"Notable circumstances under which Wikipedia often avoids a common name for lacking neutrality include...Colloquialisms where far more encyclopedic alternatives are obvious"

See also: Derry/Londonderry name dispute. A more obvious encyclopedic alternative does exist, that is Derry/Londonderry (used on various neutral sources such as Google maps and the BBC). The solution to the Gdańsk/Danzig case was much more obvious and less controversial than the Derry/Londonderry one. Wikipedia policy does permit the use of dual names on very controversial matters. Brythones (talk) 17:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I hope you're not seriously suggesting that Derry is a colloquial term. The vast majority of organisations/businesses in the city which use either term use Derry over Londonderry, which is undoubtedly a better way to determine common usage considering that news outlets will always change their style according to the political alignment of the readership. st170e 17:35, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
The solution for Gdańsk/Danzig was obvious and less controversial? It caused far more trouble and waste of electronic pages than Derry/Londonderry ever has. What article uses a slash name? That is explicitly banned by WP:NAME. Dmcq (talk) 17:37, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Aoraki / Mount Cook, Cluj-Napoca, Vitoria-Gasteiz, Biel/Bienne. Brythones (talk) 17:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
In the case of Gdańsk/Danzig, the city is almost completely demographically and politically Polish. The official name is also Gdańsk. The naming of Derry/Londonderry is a much more sensitive issue for people living in that area, and there is a significant political and demographic presence of British and Irish. Brythones (talk) 18:03, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
The actual common and offiial name of that mountain is Aoraki/Mount Cook with the slash in. The actual common and official name of Biel/Bienne is that with the slash in. They are not alternative names though that is probably how they were originally. Thgey do not conflict with WP:NAME. If Derry/Londonderry became the common name then that is what should be used here. But it isn't. Dmcq (talk) 19:15, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Clutching at straws there. Cluj-Napoca is commonly known as Cluj and Vitoria-Gasteiz is commonly known as Vitoria, so why are they known by the official name AND permitted dual names? Newcastle upon Tyne is commonly known as Newcastle, but the article uses the official name. The naming of Derry/Londonderry is so politically sensitive that it deserves to be treated in a fair, neutral and encyclopedic nature on wikipedia, but instead contributors here hide behind the irrelevent stance that Derry is apparently the common name, without any regard to the political connotations of that stance. Brythones (talk) 19:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Saying Derry is the wrong name despite what WP:NAME say should be used in Wikipedia is simply you showing your point of view instead of working from in a neutral point of view. It is you who at clutching at straws. There are tons of places called Newcastle even in Ireland and it is better used for a disambiguation page. I never heard of the two other places you menttion and as to Cluj-Napoca I don't now why that is there, but it looks like Vitoria is the name for a number of places lie Newcastle. Is Cluj the most common name in English sources or is it only the most common name of the place for people who speak Romanian? In fact how do people normally refer to Vitoria-Gasteiz in English? Dmcq (talk) 23:09, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
This quite ironically shows your lack of regard for the naming policy. In each case you can simply put the country or region after the common name, for example Loans, South Ayrshire. Cluj redirects to Cluj-Napoca, so that is a moot point. This is an encyclopedia and should be neutral on such a controversial issue!!! It's utter madness that it's not! Brythones (talk) 00:08, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Discussion about Wikipedia naming policy for articles is at WT:NAME and more specifically for geographical names at WT:NCGN. Till then as WP:NCGN says 'By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called.' Dmcq (talk) 10:19, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I would like to assume good faith but that doesn't seem to be a very balanced, weighted or encyclopedic opinion to me: the city is commonly referred to as both Derry and Londonderry as well you know Dmcq. The problem here is in striking an agreeable settlement which contributors find acceptable. I don't believe calling one name "right" and the other "wrong" is helpful in this regard when the name is such a controversial matter tied to the religious and political dividing lines in Northern Ireland. The fact that you've shown such a preference would perhaps suggest that your opinion is probably not neutral. Brythones (talk) 12:39, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Also worth noting that the vast majority of opinions expressed here have been to rename the article to "Londonderry" or "Derry/Londonderry", so perhaps we should vote on it? Brythones (talk) 12:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia, we don't vote on things, it's not a democracy but we move on consensus and strength of argument. Nothing new had been presented here to override the overwhelming consensus through all the archives. Most people are just actually ignoring this conversation as it's been had a thousand times before. Canterbury Tail talk 13:32, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
There have been such discussions and 'votes' before. What makes you thin there would be less people asking for the title to be changed to Derry if it was Londonderry? Just because you prefer the name Londonderry? You would like to assume good faith? - have a look at your own talk page, you declare yourself to be a British Unionist. This is Wikipedia with its own policies which editors should follow rather than any Nationalist or Unionist agenda. Dmcq (talk) 13:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't have an agenda, which is why I want to rename this to Derry/Londonderry and the county page to County Derry/Londonderry. Brythones (talk) 15:12, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
The county name should remain as County Londonderry. That is the more common name for it. How about us just following Wikipedia's policies instead of trying to correct the world's problems or be nice to everybody. This is an encyclopaedia and we should say what is out there in reliable sources. Dmcq (talk) 15:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
As an encyclopedia we should approach political divisions with due care and attention to detail, not an inconsistent one-size-fits all model/fudged compromise that doesn't really satisfy anyone. Brythones (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
You keep trying to rename this article, and have been on about this continuously for at least 3 years. Every time you've opened an RFC on this or started or drove continuation of a discussion on renaming this article (which has been frequently) it ends up in the same place. Please stop. Canterbury Tail talk 02:09, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Etymology of the word derry

If the gaelic word for Derry is Doire then why is this not then translated as door or opening. It seems clear that Derry would be seen as a doorway to the rest of the country. The word oak is darach in gaelic and seems very removed from the word Derry or Doire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marlogue53 (talk • contribs) 13:32, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Because "doire" means wood, as in forest. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:35, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
It is actually very close, Irish changes words for different cases, it isn't like English. Dmcq (talk) 16:04, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes. In Irish, doire means "wood, grove, thicket", and if the type of tree isn't specified, it usually means an oak wood (dictionary entry). "Oak" is dair, darach in the genitive case (dictionary entry). Meanwhile, "door" or "doorway" is doras (dictionary entry), which is a different word. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:05, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Derry gets its Anglicisation from the old Irish word "Daire", which is derived from "dair". In modern Irish "Daire" is now "Doire". Mabuska (talk) 13:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Notable person

Antonia Campbell-Hughes was born in Derry but left when she was 2 years old.

Who? Ah well she is covered at the List of people from Derry article which the Notable People section in this article clearly links too. It lists all and sundry "notable" people from the city who have articles. As there are quite a few, they have their own collective article. For this one they would need to be highly notable and important. Mabuska (talk) 22:52, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi protected edit request

I would like permission to edit the 'Derry' Wikipedia. 'Derry' is actually officially 'Londonderry', and I feel as though instead of it being stipulated that the official name is Londonderry, as it is in the article, it should be called Londonderry by default and be stipulated that it is also known as Derry.

 Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. DannyS712 (talk) 00:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Please see WP:IMOS about the current situation about the name. See the top of this talk page about finding previous discussions on this subject. Please also see WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAME. Dmcq (talk) 13:10, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
In fact better to put Derry/Londonderry into the small yellow archives search box above for the talk page archives. Well any of those archives will have some discussion on it. Dmcq (talk) 13:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2019

Remove the reference to Derry being a fictional town in Maine and the citation. It bears no relation to this article other than sharing a name, so should be in disambiguation.

"Derry is also a fictional town in Maine, United States, used in some Stephen King novels.[40]" Pthomas72 (talk) 16:28, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Nothing to do with the topic so removed. It is under Derry (disambiguation) which is the right place for it. Dmcq (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2019

Derry. Also known as Londonderry to protestants, but to the Irish Republic, 'Derry' Emma776 (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

No. You need reliable sources. And a reason, protestants and the Irish Republic are not two alternatives of anything. Also it is true it is generally known as Derry in the Republic, but that has very little to do with the dispute as far as I'm aware. Dmcq (talk) 18:23, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
There is an entire section of the article about the name dispute and it seems to me that it should be mentioned in the lead, though Emma776's wording might not be ideal. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 18:43, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Well the Irish Republic has nothing to do with this, that's a different country and what a different country calls something is not relevant. Canterbury Tail talk 20:15, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

subpage

This article has subpage Derry/Londonderry name dispute, not a good solution in general (WP:Subpages). Without wishing to enter into a discussion of it merits, I'm just noting its existence, has this been agreed to somewhere? cygnis insignis 08:24, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

  • @Cygnis insignis: That isn't a subpage (subpages are not enabled in the main namespace), it's a daughter article about a subtopic that has been spun out of this main article for length reasons. Think of it as "Derry or Londonderry name dispute". Thryduulf (talk) 10:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Technically, it is a subpage, go to Talk:Derry/Londonderry name dispute and you will see the parent link to this page < Talk:Derry. I'm guessing there is a convention for avoiding the use of / in a title (and the url). The idea of subtopics and daughter articles is something I feel is avoidable, the topic could be seen as a 'subtopic' of several other articles and has different intersects with different types of article topics and arguably constrains a spinoff to a fork (hypothetically speaking, I am not disputing the content of that page). cygnis insignis 10:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
No it isn't a subpage, subpages are not possible in the main namespace. That the talk page of that article appears to be a subpage of this talk page is unfortunate and unavoidable but not indicative (see for example talk:OS/2 and Talk:I/O scheduling). Separate spinout articles are a standard feature of Wikipedia and are done for reasons of article length. Derry/Londonderry name dispute is exactly the same sort of article as History of Derry. A content fork is always a possibility with any subject and is unrelated to the article title. Thryduulf (talk) 12:05, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles with slashes in title, which includes the "unavoidable title". I have assumed "Derry / Londonderry" would not be the name in dispute, if it is in common usage and not patching a problem here, and that editors have found another way round in similar situations. I have used subpages a lot elsewhere, and didn't actually know what was meant by disabled, thanks for clarifying that, cygnis insignis 13:12, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
The dispute is about whether the settlement and/or county should be called "Derry" or "Londonderry". When talking about the dispute or when both names are used in other contexts (e.g. not wanting to take a side in the dispute) there are many different forms that are used, but "Derry/Londonderry" is the most common, see Derry/Londonderry name dispute#Response to the dispute. "Derry~Londonderry" seems to be rising in prominence generally as a compromise name for the city but doesn't get much if any use as a name for the dispute. Thryduulf (talk) 13:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2019

Please add to the section about Londonderrys: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonderry,_Edmonton

Fridgemagneto (talk) 21:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC) Fridgemagneto (talk) 21:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done Sceptre (talk) 21:25, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2019

Remove the part under events about Derry hosting the Tomo-Dachi anime convention every summer. This hasn't been an event for 12 years now. Sphiralis (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:07, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Londonderry

It is called Londonderry, the Irish want it to be known as Derry but the Republic of Ireland don’t have a say. NI is part of the U.K. (Airline7375 (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC))

It's not a matter of who gets a say, but what Wikipedia editors have agreed. See WP:DERRY. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:28, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
Can wikipedia editors unilaterally decide to alter the nature of reality? This seems to be wikiality. The name should reflect the actual name of the place, not what some violent extremists and terrorists want it to be know as. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.111.127 (talk) 19:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

The people of Londonderry/Derry who identify as Irish want it to be Derry. It is their say as citizens of Northern Ireland. This has nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:683A:D758:8D83:16C9:D879:271C (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Totally agree how can you come to a compromise about the name it's legally called Londonderry. And where did the editor get this info , in everyday conversation "Derry" is used by most Protestant residents of the city'. So I'm assuming the Protestant population has been questioned on this have they? Seems like it back to bad days of wiki when anything could be published. Dovey68 (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia often flouts political reality. You get the same editors arguing to keep this article at Derry yet gurn that Republic of Ireland isn't at Ireland instead. Plenty of black pots and kettles going about the place. Mabuska (talk) 17:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
It's frankly ridiculous. Londonderry is the name of the city. County Londonderry is the name of the county. If Wikipedians want to change the name of the city or county, they should get the UK government to change it. Steepleman (t) 12:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Part II

How can an article be published on here which is incorrect. The word Derry is not a legally recognised place it is called Londonderry. So why is the title of this article named Derry. Dovey68 (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Please rename the article Londonderry please Dovey68 (talk) 15:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

No. FDW777 (talk) 15:13, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
How? Because the number of nationalist editors here outnumber those that accept real world reality. Thus a compromise was created... Londonderry city at this name and the county at County Londonderry. Simples. Mabuska (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
No Mabuska, if that was the case then Ireland would be called Ireland. The compromise was created by all parties and was based on common use-----Snowded TALK 17:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
And the fact that the government of the city called it Derry. If the city government had called it Londonderry the compromise may have looked different. Canterbury Tail talk 18:13, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Technically and legally, that's just the name of the district, not the city which is still legally Londonderry. A bit like Pretoria is in the Tshwane municipal district. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I've no objections to this article being re-named Londonderry. GoodDay (talk) 13:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
But you know full well that to do so would be to stir up a lot of unecessary trouble over one the most long standing compromises on wikipedia - why do you keep doing this GoodDay? -----Snowded TALK 14:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
It's always been Wikipedia's failing, that it bows to how some people feel about a topic. Since there's no edit-warring going on, a discussion of the name is harmless. GoodDay (talk) 15:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
I agree with GoodDay, I also think it should be renamed to Londonderry for the reasons above. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
This discussion is pretty pointless unless one of you is actually going to formally propose moving the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:17, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Consensus seems to be that this artictle should be called Londonderry not Derry as per the standard naming conventions for cities. Can someone make the required changed to the article?

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.111.127 (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

No it shouldn't, so nobody will be changing anything. FDW777 (talk) 19:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
There is no consensus to change. A couple of people posting above doesn't override the main consensus and MOS on this. See WP:DERRY. Canterbury Tail talk 19:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Also WP:COMMONNAME which takes precedence, being a policy. The common name of the city in English is Derry. FDW777 (talk) 19:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
It is only the common name for the catholic community, also shorten names aren't used as common names, otherwise why is NYC titled New York, Philadelphia isn't Philly, Washington D.C isn't just DC and Portsmouth isn't Pompey. So I think at best your argument is simply wrong, at worst it is sophistry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.108.86 (talk) 11:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure two people can just dictate the consensus. The consensus has clearly changed and the article should reflect that. Otherwise its Wikality. I would remind FDW777 and Canterbury Tail they don't own the article and should perhaps take a break from editing this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.108.86 (talk) 11:28, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Start a requested move or stop whining. FDW777 (talk) 11:30, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
The reason Wikipedia calls this article Derry is because of a longstanding compromise. It is non-negotiable that Wikipedia should not be seen as favouring the unionist or republican sides. And calling the article "Derry/Londonderry" does not fit well with our policies either. So to avoid these pitfalls, it was agreed years ago that the city article should be called "Derry" and the county article should be called "County Londonderry".
Wikipedia's policies on official names and on geographic names make it clear that the official name is not always the right one for the article title. In any case, the name Derry does have some official usage, as it is used in the name of the local authority Derry City and Strabane. It is not the official name of the city itself, but nor is it a mere colloquialism.
If you believe that the article should be renamed to Londonderry, you need to address how you would stop Wikipedia from consequently being tipped towards favouring the unionist side of the naming dispute. There is no justification for a change otherwise. I have yet to see a renaming proposal to rename this article that would address this issue. Nor have I seen one that improves on the status quo. Anywikiuser (talk) 13:10, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Also two people can just dictate the consensus. The consensus has clearly changed and the article should reflect that is flawed. Talk:Derry/Archive 7#RfC: Renaming the Derry and County Londonderry articles and Talk:Derry/Archive 8#RfC: Renaming the Derry article are the most recent attempts to change the consensus, and they failed. A few people complaining about the title on an intermittent basis does not prove that consensus has changed, only a proper move request or request for comment will do that. FDW777 (talk) 08:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Any reason why this is still going on? We have a long established consensus and against that a single purpose IP (supported by one long standing self identified Unionist editor) who is just wasting everyone's time. -----Snowded TALK 08:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Indeed. Consensus on the compromise reached in 2004. Has worked well since. No new or compelling reason to change that consensus has been presented. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
It's the whole "No surrender!" attitudes that get aroused any time there's a dispute in Northern Ireland over a symbolic issue. The more trivial the issue, the more likely that hardline unionists and nationalists will dig their heels in over it. If anything, I'm surprised there haven't been more disputes over this article's name. Anywikiuser (talk) 13:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
So a consensus amongst Wikipedia admins is all it takes to alter reality? If a large number of Wikipedia admins want Wikipedia to claim 2+2=5 as part of some kind of joke, is it impossible for anyone to question it due to this so called consensus? The name of the County and City can use the official name, with commonly referred to as Derry following it. Northern Ireland is apart of the United Kingdom, so the opinion of the state of Ireland is largely irrelevant when considering names - the Good Friday Agreement makes no mention of foreign countries being allowed to rename British cities. The Wikipedia article for Poznan doesn't use the German name Posen, although it does mention the German name in its opening sentence. If the German Government suddenly decided to create a naming dispute, and a small German population in the city agreed, well the city would still be called Poznan. Azaan Habib 21:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Admins don't determine consensus, the community as a whole does. The vast majority of the editors in this discussion are not admins. If you wish to make a formal RfC or move request on it, it's your right, but I don't believe consensus has changed. And since you've not once edited this article, talk or even this topic area in general before, the advice I'd give is to read through all the previous discussions and agreements instead of just jumping in and pointing fingers around the place at "admins". Canterbury Tail talk 21:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
The policy can be found at WP:COMMONNAME. If you don't like the policy, you can try to change it, leave, or accept it and move on. FDW777 (talk) 21:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
You seemed to have missed the point and instead strawmaned. Consensus doesn't decide fact. Would a scientific book from Ancient Greece be forced to admit that the Earth is flat, due to to a consensus? Using this logic it would be forced to, but luckily for us consensus doesn't dictate reality. There is also a consensus that the Great Wall of China can be seen from Space. But yet again, it's simply not true. Even the article itself admits that Derry is not the correct name. The only consensus comes from outside the city of Derry itself, in a different country (Ireland), so why is it relevant at all? Same thing with my example on Posen/Poznan. Anyway I won't reply anymore. User:Alexiod Palaiologos 19:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

City of Culture

@Canterbury Tail: The wording is currently confusing. I realize that the bidding process was in 2010, and the title officially came into effect in 2013, but I had to go to the City of Culture wiki page to figure that out. I put in an edit to make it less ambiguous, but it was reverted. Any recommendations? TimeEngineer (talk) 21:12, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Population

The statement in the first line of the article that the city is "the fourth-largest city on the island of Ireland." is contradicted by the wikipedia page "List of settlements on the island of Ireland by population" which places it fifth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_on_the_island_of_Ireland_by_population

John2o2o2o (talk) 14:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Which is why such statements should be accompanied by an as of... date. - Seasider53 (talk) 15:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
It's not necessarily contradicted as that list is not comparing like with like. As the intro to that article states, the figures for Northern Ireland are from 2011 while the figures for R of Ireland are from 2016. Derry's 2011 population was 580 people fewer than Limerick's 2016 population. Since Derry has been growing in recent times and Limerick falling, it's highly likely that in the 5 years after that it gained more than 600 people. Valenciano (talk) 15:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
"highly likely" is a nice term for guesswork without solid proof. The Banner talk 19:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
It is, isn't it. However, I'm not adding unsourced material based on that, unlike your contributions to the Limerick article, so it is you who is currently breaking the rules, not me. Valenciano (talk) 19:38, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
If it is not guesswork, come with proof for your claim. The Banner talk 19:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Transport section

Currently, the article reads "Alongside the railways, the city was severed by a standard gauge (1,435 mm (4 ft 8+1⁄2 in)) tramway, the City of Derry Tramways.[133]" Should the word "severed" not be replaced with the word "served"? If so, would someone kindly make the necessary edit, please? 87.75.117.183 (talk) 18:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Dun. Seasider53 (talk) 19:10, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion for ad-nauseum "change the name" threads

I would estimate we've had a "change the name" thread active for about as long as Wikipedia has been around, and this is never going to change. Rather than just filling the talk page up with the same arguments rehashed again and again and again, couldn't we just revert the request with an edit summary of "WP:DERRY", and add something to the FAQ along the lines of "Do not add a thread suggesting changing any name in the article from Derry to Londonderry, or vice versa, without reading WP:DERRY and ensuring that you bring fresh arguments that stand a good chance of challenging consensus. Edit requests without detail, or containing personal attacks will be removed." Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:03, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Good idea -----Snowded TALK 19:19, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Considering the article concedes that "Londonderry" is the official name, giving the designation Londonderry precedent over "Derry" would be the way logical forward.

E.G: "Londonderry, also known as Derry,is a city in Northern Ireland" What other articles give the unofficial designation for its subject precedent over its actual designation? F.M. Sir D.H (talk) 14:43, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

There are examples at Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names, F.M. Sir D.H. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
When was the last discussion, about changing the name? GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Late 20th century

The first sentence reads "The city languished after the second world war, with unemployment and development stagnating." The syntax yokes "stagnated" to unemployment as well as development, which surely isn't the author's intention. Suggest switching the order of unemployment and development, and adding either "high" or "rising" to describe unemployment (some unemployment is inevitable in any city).Shiresman (talk) 01:56, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2022

In the section that gives the name of the city in Irish it does not include an accurate translation for Londonderry. Please add ' Londaindoire' to reflect this. 2A02:C7E:2C2A:3D00:71C7:A25F:B8B8:6D68 (talk) 21:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Please provide a source that that is the cities name in Irish, and that it is used, and not just something you translated. Canterbury Tail talk 21:49, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:01, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
No evidence for the claim. The Banner talk 17:03, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

links with Buffalo, New York

Found a source for Buffalo having some sort of relationship with "Derry, N.Ireland", but no specifics as to the date or nature of the link.

Not an official sister city, but as stated one of several Other International Friends & Partners. FDW777 (talk) 14:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Name of article needs changing

The official name of the city is Londonderry. That should be the article's title, not an abbreviation, nickname, or an older name.

See WP:DERRY. The Banner talk 11:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Maybe, just maybe, something that was agreed to almost 20 years ago should be revised? After all, again, the city is officially called Londonderry as of September of 2022, and Wikipedia tends to use the official name when possible from what I've seen around here. ~Gum 23:24, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
No, it actually doesn't. It's why we have Republic of Ireland, Taiwan and Prime Minister of Spain rather than their official titles. See WP:OFFICIALNAMES. However, you can certainly raise it at WP:DERRY and try and get a consensus there if you think it's worth it. Valenciano (talk) 16:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Add brackets to warn readers that some sentences are in Old English

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A while ago, I made an edit that turned some quotes from Old English to regular English. It was not improvement and was rightfully reverted. I tried to add brackets warning readers about this but the edit was reverted because it already mentioned that the quote was from 1613 which I did not notice and doesn't always clarify that the quote is in Old English. I feel like this should be added, so that readers won't get confused, and so other editors don't change the quotes. Quinnerwinner12 (talk) 20:21, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

As far as I know there was just editor confused by the old English. So to be true, I do not see the need for it. The Banner talk 20:44, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't see the need. It's clearly a quote, and it's clearly marked as the time it's from. It's a sky is blue statement that language changes. Some modern English on Wikipedia has probably changed since it was originally written. Canterbury Tail talk 21:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Well then, in that case this discussion has reached its consensus. nothing will be added. Quinnerwinner12 (talk) 16:13, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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