Talk:Darjeeling/Archive 1

Climate conundrum

In the section on climate, the text says: "In winter temperature averages 5–7 °C (41–44 °F), with lows around −5 °C (23.0 °F). Occasionally the temperatures drop below freezing; snowfalls are fairly common." This doesn't make sense — if the average low is around −5 °C, then presumably the temperature drops below freezing more often than "occasionally". Does this mean to say that the maximum temperature is occasionally below freezing? Ondewelle (talk) 18:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, the text says that "the average winter minimum is said to be "around −5 °C (23.0 °F)", but it also says that "the lowest-ever temperature recorded was −5 °C (23 °F)". These two statements are not compatible. Ondewelle (talk) 09:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Darjeeling

Apart from its exquisite tea, Darjeeling is one of the most breathtakingly beautiful places in the world. Between mid-March and mid-June, and again from late-September through December, the majestic Kanchenjunga range confers a grandeur to the landscape of Darjeeling that could have few peers on this earth. Above the main town sits St. Paul's School, one of the finest boarding schools in Asia, complete with a spectacularly beautiful Quadrangle, one of the greatest gardens in India and a tradition of exceptional achievement in producing well-rounded ethical alumni. Darjeeling and its surrounding areas (Tiger Hill, Sandakphu, Phalut) offer some of the most bracing trekking routes in the Himalayas -- linking the town with the base camp to Kanchenjunga (the third tallest peak in the world) and Mt. Everest. Apart from the Botanical Gardens, the zoo and the blue-domed palace of the Maharaja of Burdwan, other notable tourist destinations in Darjeeling are the home of the late Tenzing Norgay (the first man to climb Everest, accompanied by Edmund Hillary) and the Himalayan Mountaineering Institute, where Tenzing, his nephew Nawang Gombu (the first man to climb Everest twice) and other mountaineering luminaries left their lasting imprint.

Separation of geographical from the tea

Would anyone object to the separation of the tea from the geography into two articles? --Iateasquirrel 08:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

This was a good idea. Major Danby 14 April 2006.

Use of suitable map

I was trying to mark the position of Darjeeling/Darjiling on the map. Where do I get the blank map from?? (ChrisR, UK, 26/8/05)

Here is a fine map of the west bengal district for anyone who can mark the position of darjeeling....i've started to use wikipedia only recently so i am not very skilled.

The map listed above (from mapsofindia.com) cannot be used. It is not published under a suitable license.

Aggressive entrepreneurship

An unregisted person first obliterated all of the links to the Darjeeling News, which is the first site that comes up on many Google searches for Darjeeling, and replace them with a link to a private company's travel guide. I restored those links and, as a courteous gesture, put the link that the anonymous person had added in the fourth position. Today he or she came back, obliterated the first Darjeeling News link, and replaced it with a duplicate of the fourth link. I hold no brief for the newspaper, with which I'm generally unfamiliar, but I don't like the commercialization of Wikipedia in violation of its rules so I'm going to go on doing eliminating those changes. If any participant here has any thoughts or advice, please offer them. Major Danby 14 April 2006.

Comment

A nice article, guyz. Only a few problems, I think.

• the town is also a favourite tourist destination offering temperate climate, magnificent views of the snowcapped peaks of Himalaya and other attractions (from lead section) - is POV is travel guide-ish. Should be reworded.
• The article says, The most significant contributor to the Darjeeling economy is tourism (first line, Economy section). But later, it says, Darjeeling has a modest tourism industry (first line, last para, Culture and tourism section) - Contradicts itself.
• The Culture and people (or maybe the lead itself) should give an indication of which commune of people inhabit the city (Nepalese, Bengali etc). In the present incarnation of the article, it is not very clear.
• One important thing - as it is mentioned that it is a popular tourist destination, it should include a mention of note-worthy places, which is largely absent from the article. A Tourism section may be created, and the last para from the Culture and people section be spun off here. This section should also list all the popular tourist spots - but care should be made not to make it a travel guide. And mention of the monasteries, in and around Darjeeling, are largely absent.

--soUmyaSch 13:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Did not have much time to look over. I think that the pronunciation link should be moved a bit inside the article for smoother reading. A well-referenced article, I should say. --Andy123(talk) 17:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Re:Comments

• the town is also a favourite tourist destination offering temperate climate, magnificent views of the snowcapped peaks of Himalaya and other attractions (from lead section) - is POV is travel guide-ish. Should be reworded.

"Comment removed for the time being."

• The article says, The most significant contributor to the Darjeeling economy is tourism (first line, Economy section). But later, it says, Darjeeling has a modest tourism industry (first line, last para, Culture and tourism section) - Contradicts itself.

"Will be done shortly."

• The Culture and people (or maybe the lead itself) should give an indication of which commune of people inhabit the city (Nepalese, Bengali etc). In the present incarnation of the article, it is not very clear.

"The communities have been detailed in "Demographics."

• One important thing - as it is mentioned that it is a popular tourist destination, it should include a mention of note-worthy places, which is largely absent from the article. A Tourism section may be created, and the last para from the Culture and people section be spun off here. This section should also list all the popular tourist spots - but care should be made not to make it a travel guide. And mention of the monasteries, in and around Darjeeling, are largely absent.

"Creating sections like Tourism is against the Wikiproject Indian Cities. Tourist spots have to be incorporated into other sections, if needed. Monasteries, handicraft centers can be incorporated in "Culture", for example."--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The culture and people section could be expanded then? the festivals can be described in greater detail. Where would the town's landmarks be placed? (those usually are tourist spots.) --hydkat 21:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: The culture and people is pretty large already. A daughter article is needed, I guess. Festivals will be discussed in greater detail in the daughter article while very short one-liners may be added within bracket to give a hint of those lesser known festivals. Some Landmarks (Mall, Lebong, zoo) have been added in geography, while some are in culture (tiger hill). More are in education (the schools). I will ask some local people and see if some more major landmarks are needed. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

comments

Along with the devnagari spelling, also include Bengali. Some info about the timber industry would be useful.BengalRenaissanceEccentrica 22:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Re:The Bengali script was not used as Bengali is not the major language among the inhabitants of Darjeeling. However, the large chunk of tourists there are Bengalis, so that you can hear Bengali in the streets quite often. Ok, I am addding the Bengali script soon.

Do not have any info on the timber industry of the town, though some info may be available on the timber industry of the district. I'll try to find out.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The label on the lead map is too small; it needs to look more like that used at Kolkata. Saravask 05:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Re:Well, I'll contact and request relevanr editors for that. I dont know how to do map-works.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

history

"In the 1900s, the non-British elites of Kolkata also began visiting Darjeeling." -- when did the british start visiting? The article only talks about british settlements, not darjeeling as a tourist destination.

no significant contribution to freedom struggle -- this is a somewhat confusing statement. Darjeeling is a small place. It is hard to attribute "portions" of freedom struggle to it. Same can be said any other district in Bengal (apart from obvious exceptions)--ppm 21:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that the comment on freedom struggle sounds somewhat biased. Thanks for bringing it to notice. We'll rephrase/remove the comment.

Regarding your first point, we do not have much historical data on the evolution of Darjeeling as a tourist spot. I mean, when exactly it started to attract tourist, when exactly first hotel was started etc. Just a story-like description is available in some sources. We'll try to fill up that lacunae, if we get data. On the other hand, history as a British settlement is avaialable, and we've incorporated that.

In other sections (economy, culture) the tourism aspect have been discussed. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding culture, I have one suggestion: namely to not have food as the first thing there. Maybe something that is missing -- music/literature can go there--ppm 18:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are correct. We'll do the change. One more that is missing in culture is the attire. I'll add thoses soon. In fact, attire can be placed at the beginning, what do you think? Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

sure, great Idea--ppm 04:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Btw, unless this article is following some template for India cities, I would suggest that "media" be merged into cultue. One might also think about merging "Utility and transport" (and make it shorter).--ppm 04:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, in fact, the article is following the guidelines of Wikiproject Indian cities. Unless some section is pitifully short, there is no need to merge.--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then--ppm 17:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments

I skimmed through the article. I don't have any specific knowledge on the subject so these are all general comments:

1. There is a disparity between section sizes. For example, it has a very long Utility services section but a short Economy section. The economy is a lot more important than the Utility services and should be given more space.
2. The lead is currently a bit short for an article this size. It could do with one more paragraph. The lead is mainly lacking on contemporary information, with History given more focus.
3. The images are sometimes too small to give effective illustration. Increasing their size a bit may make for a better viewing page.
4. The picture in the first paragraph is very inadequate. It's a map of India with only a small dot representing the subject of the article. It should be replaced with something more specific to Darjeeling, a map showing Darjeeling's position within India can go into the Geography section or a Geography daughter article.

Overall it's a good article that with a little work may become another feathe rin India's ever-growing FA collection. Best of luck! Loom91 05:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Yo! Thanks for yout excellent comments. Yeah there is a disparity in size. In fact, if we can get more info, data etc on economy, we'll of course increase the size. But the present data just fits in succinctly in that size. Let's see if we can get hold of more data.

Ok, the lead will be increased. However, we are waiting for more input on the rest of the article. Once that is done, we'll create a new lead on the basis of, and summarising, the reast of the article.

We'll have images of same PX soon. In fact, we'll have some new images soon. Once we get those, image sizes will be uniform, hopefully!

Please give more feedback later on. Thank you. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

tea estates owners in darjeeling

You could name a few tea plantation estate companies based in darjeeling. For example Tata tea own most of the plantations in Munnar. How is it like in that town. --hydkat 09:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment

"The range is shaped like the English letter 'Y', the base resting at Katapahar and Jalapahar while two arms diverge from the Mall, one dipping suddenly to the North East and ending in the Lebong spur, the other arm running North West passes through the St. Joseph's College and finally ends in the valley near Tukver Tea Estate.[10]" - this sentence is soooo long. I cannot think of how to break it up yet but if someone else can make it more concise feel free. --Blacksun 16:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Images

There are some free use images available here-- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}15:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it normal for wikipedia images to include the name of the author /photographer ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.206.95 (talk) 15:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

What sort of infobox does the article use and why? =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Indian Jurisdiction is the infobox that User:Saravask created. It's okay to use that directly. The city infobox, district infobox, urban area infobox all redirect to that. Anyhow I changed the infobox on this article to avoid confusion. - Ganeshk (talk) 14:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"*" is missing on the main page

'datas, for instance what is the annual income from darjeeling tea, timber, tourism and various other plantations ', which is on the right hand top corner of the main page, that signifies an article to be a featured one, is missing on the main page. can anybody add that.nids 20:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Added. Thanks. Saravask 22:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

How did this article get FA with a cleanup tag on it for no references (in the media section)? SnottyWong talk 12:28, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It was promoted a long time ago. The article probably needs to be reviewed again as I don't believe it's FA quality any more. Spiderone 16:52, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Questionable intro section on connections with Nepal

I have copy-edited and moved the following passage from the intro to a new section under History on Connections with Nepal:

• It was once part of Nepal. When India was under British rule, a treaty was signed to ensure the interests of Nepal, India and Britain. Under the so-called Sugauli Treaty, many parts of Nepal became Indian. Under the treaty, which was only valid till the mid 1900s, one of the three countries pulled out, then the parts would automatically go back to Nepal. Similarly, when the validation date of the treaty was reached, those parts would also automatically come under Nepal. Thus, Darjeeling along with many other Northern Indian places, should now be part of Nepal as the treaty is now over. But the Indian government has not done anything about this. (If you want to know more on this matter look for Greater Nepal)

The passage was added by User:MongolGurkha on 18 October. It seems to me it requires careful checking with reliable references, particularly as it seems to have been inserted by someone interested in the cause of Greater Nepal. If the arguments are non sufficiently well founded, the passage should be removed.- Ipigott (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

what references do you need. when theres is none in the internet. if you want to know. go visit the place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MongolGurkha (talk • contribs) 16:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The internet is certainly not the only source. The blog reference you have included is not very specific and does not mention Darjeeling. Can you not find some historical accounts? References to history books or similar would be perfectly acceptable.-Ipigott (talk) 09:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I have just been looking into this a little more carefully and it seems to me that the account at Nepal-India Open Border: Prospects, Problems and Challenges provides quite a lot of interesting background and specifically mentions Darjeeling. Perhaps you can draw on it, give it as a reference and generally improve the article.-Ipigott (talk) 09:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: This is also being discussed here. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 20:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Nepal apparently lost territory from the present eastern border east to the Teesta River in the Sugauli Treaty of 1816. Darjeeling is situated west of the mainstem Teesta where it cuts through the Mahabharat Range, so it would seem to be part of the territory Nepal was forced to cede to the British, although it was only an obscure village at that time with development into a "hill station" yet to come. MongolGurkha seems correct in this, but to go on to say that Darjeeling "should" be returned to Nepal amounts to partisan editorializing that is out of place in an encyclopedia. Furthermore it ought to be noted that the development of Darjeeling into a hill station was accomplished under British rule after 1816. Although Nepal has similar locations all along the Mahabharat Range, it never bothered to develop any of them into resort towns. "Hill Stations" are a uniquely British development (with Mughal antecedents) that India and Pakistan rightfully inherited. Giving Darjeeling back to Nepal makes no more sense than returning New York City to descendants of the tribes that lived there in the early 1600s. [User:LADave|LADave]] (talk) 15:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Is Darjeeling in Siwaliks or Mahabharats?

The article locates Darjeeling in the Siwaliks range, but the Siwalik ranges are the outermost foothills of the Himalayan system, mostly under 1,000 meters at their crest. The Mahabharat Range (or Lesser Himalaya) lie north of the Siwaliks and reach 1,500 to about 2,500 meters, consistent with Darjeeling's elevation.

The Mahabharats are are an important hydrologic barrier, causing river systems such as Karnali/Goghra, Gandaki and Koshi systems to assume candelabra shapes with multiple glacier-fed tributaries joining along the norther edge of the Mahabharats before cutting through. The Teesta exhibits this pattern with its main tributaries joining along the Sikkim border a short distance north of Darjeeling.

I propose assigning Darjeeling to the Mahabharat Range rather than the Siwaliks. Comments? LADave (talk) 06:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Major issues with sources, writing, etc.

Okay, after my recent FAR debacles, I'm not going to have this reassessed right away, but here are some points to ponder in case someone wants to take this to FAR once it's off the main page.

First of all, what makes these sources reliable? Most of them look rather questionable: no author credits, no proof of reputability, et cetera.

• http://www.darjnet.com/darjeeling/darjeeling/history/darjhistory.htm
• http://www.darjeelingnews.net/darjeeling_tea.html
• http://www.exploredarjeeling.com/history.htm
• http://www.zubin.com/darjeeling/general.htm
• http://www.darjeelingnews.net/tourist-attractions/padmaja-naidu-himalayan-zoological-park.html
• http://darjeelingnews.net/geography.html
• http://www.darjeelingnews.net/tea_facts.html
• http://www.darjeelingnews.net/darjeeling_festivals.html

Also:

• Unsourced sentences in the "Economy" and "Demographics" subesections (which I slapped with {{fact}} tags).
• Unqualified "and so on" in the economy section. I think that resorting to "and so on" is sloppy writing.
• "Some political parties" in "History" section. Which ones?
• "Media" section is entirely unsourced.
• Plenty more I'm sure I missed.

This article clearly needs some fixing up. These concerns have been raised in a section above. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 01:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure this article will survive. Sikkim was delisted a few months ago and I think it is a better article. Spiderone 08:41, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to put this through WP:FAR in a few days as I'm not allowed to put one on that's recently been on the main page. Spiderone 12:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Done, feel free to leave comments Spiderone 08:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Sumer capital ?

Wasn't Simla the "summer capital"? (Quoting from memory - not the wikipedia page for Simla). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.201.149 (talk) 18:11, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

FARC review comments

I am re-reading the article as part of my FARC review, and will add my notes and questions here:

1. Lead needs a sentence or two on the 19th/20th history of Darjeeling under British rule.
2. The description of tea and DHR can be shortened in the lede.
3. The elevation data is uncited and the numbers in the lede, the infobox, and the geography section all differ. Please check.
4. The history section reads well overall (though the author has a tendency, like me, to write long sentences with multiple clauses ;-) )
5. See if the sentences in the Geography section can be reordered a bit to separate out the topological, tectonic and soil details. Also, the sentence "Darjeeling is the main town of the Sadar subdivision and also the headquarters of the district." seems misplaced - is there any better location for it ?
6. Should the "The district's forests and other natural wealth have been adversely affected by an ever-growing population." sentence be moved from the Economy to the Flora and fauna section ?
7. Move the "Environmental degradation, including denudation of the surrounding hills has adversely affected Darjeeling's appeal as a tourist destination.[30]" sentence to the Economy section from Demographics ?
8. Mention that the population data etc is from 2001 census.

I'll add to the above list over the next day or so and perhaps make real minor changes myself (feel free to revert or tweak those). Abecedare (talk) 04:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Have finished reading through the article and the text seems to be in good shape. I'll recheck the references tomorrow. In the meantime can the involved editors take a look at the above comments, check the two {{clarify}} tags I added, and the comments in my recent edit-summaries. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 06:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I've addressed most of the above. As to the first {{clarify}} tag, I'm not really sure what the author means by the word nationality - he seems to have confused it with the (even more confusing) nationalism. As I see it, the nationality seems to be more of a regional identity based on language and ethnicity - not sure how to clarify this in the article, though. The second tag was much simpler - sal and oak (referred to in the previous sentence) are evergreen trees, and I've clarified this subsequently. Points 1, 2, 3, 5 and 8 have been fixed (please check if they're satisfactory now); also 6 & 7 have been clubbed into the Demographics section as the focus of the information is to provide an idea of the (adverse) effects of population growth on the town and its surroundings. Also do mention if there are any further issues with the article. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 14:33, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks SBC-YPR. I think your changes address my doubts and concerns, and I have added my "keep" comment at FARC following the many improvements made to the article over the last few months. For future reference, here are some points where the article can be further improved:

• The lede can be further expanded/organized a bit.
• The Further reading section can be trimmed to list only the best references on the subject, or books of historical importance (that may not be otherwise suitable for sourcing article content). A lengthy further reading section, just like a lengthy EL section, invites spamming!
• One or more maps of the town and surrounding region would be very useful. Although there are no accepted wikipedia standards on this, personally, I think a city article requires one for comprehensiveness.
• More and better images are always desirable!
• I am not sure that the subsections in the History section are needed - although this is perhaps a amatter of personal tastes.

Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 15:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Official language

Nepali is the official language of Darjeeling. Bengali is also an official language of Darjeeling, because Darjeeling is located inside West Bengal. This is according to the constitution of India. Don't get me wrong, but I'm just writing this according to facts. Yours faithfully, Kotakkasut. 02:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Bengali is official language of West Bengal, of course including Darjeeling. Additional official languages of Darjeeling (but no other places in West Bengal) are Nepali, which is spoken by 60+ percent of the population in Darjeeling, and English. Further languages (e.g. Tibetan) are spoken in Darjeeling but don't have the status of "additional official languages". These are the facts according to official gov source, which I cited in the article (http://nclm.nic.in/shared/linkimages/nclm48threport.pdf - Report of the Commissioner for Linguistic Minorities in India: 48th report (July 2010 to June 2011), pp 159-160).

As long as there is no other credible source for language facts, which tells something different, I consider this source and the facts stated there as valid. Would be really great if further vandalism changes concerning this topic could be avoided. ;-) Bangalorius (talk) 09:22, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

How many seasons?

The following was moved from a user talk page:

Darjeeling climate

I have provided the references for five seasons in Darjeeling: one is from Bengal district gazetteer (page 15 last paragraph) and the other book (page 34 middle paragraph). There may be even more references available, but I did not search for more, as we got two references.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, sources suggest that Autumn and Spring are perhaps transitory; that you can of course mention.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Checking page 15 as you referred to, the full author was comparing the weather of periods of the year with England's.

“ Owing to the tropical situation of the town of Darjeeling, the seasons largely follow the course of those in the plains, the cold weather, hot weather and rains, but there are two short periods—and those the most delightful in the year—which correspond in some ways to an English autumn and spring. The cold weather is divided into two portions. The first at the end of rains is mild and pleasant, the atmosphere being tolerably clear, and generally free from mist and cloud. This is the autumn, if autumn there be, at Darjeeling. Towards the beginning of December, the first touch of winter comes with hoar-frost; and at the end of that month and in January, the ground is sometimes frozen almost the whole day. The air cloudless, dry and bracing; in the early morning ”

Writing "This is the autumn, if autumn there be" does not suggest that there is actually an autumn! The rest of the book, as expected, was dealing with the seasons as no more than 3: a dry season, a wet season and a summer. (season - seasons). Additionally, claiming that the seasons are distinct in Darjeeling's Wikipedia article is false, since there are barely 2 distinct seasons, the rainy and the dry. The many distinct seasons apply to places with high latitude, as for Montreal, Chicago or others. Tropical and sub-tropical climates don't have 4 or 5 distinct seasons.

The other reference:

“ Darjeeling's temperate climate has five ditinct seasons: spring, summer, autumn, winter, and the monsoons. ”

Let me ask, how reliable is the book (From India to Love) as a source on climatic facts? Checking the climate chart in IMD, Climate-Data.org and Weather2Travel, clearly shows no more than 2 distinct seasons. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:20, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree that they are not "distinct" five seasons, and so in my edit, I did not incorporate the word distinct.

Now, the gazetteer says three seasons : cold weather (winter), hot weather (summer), and rains (monsoon). There is no questions about these three main seasons. So, that we may consider as settled.

Regarding autumn and spring, the gazetteer compared those with similar times in the UK, and also said the climate pattern in Darjeeling sort of follows the one in the plains. There is an autumn in Bengal, lasting about one month or so, although the Spring is very transitory, perhaps imperceptible in some areas. So, I'd like to know your views (and if needed references) regarding the north Bengal (plains) climate.

The IMD charts lists numbers, but do not provide description of type of climate/season. I will definitely search for more references, but I find your approach (dry and wet seasons) overly simplified. Again, I am with you for three main seasons, but the other two could be there, too, even though transitory and indistinct.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:01, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Even though there are no more than two distinct seasons, the three season classification is satisfactory. However, climate charts are a good demonstration for seasons and they don't show more than 2 distinct seasons for Darjeeling, that's why I provided them. Now the source which lists 5 seasons has to be removed and we would write that the seasons are 3, and that's all, without the word "distinct[ive]", for the sake of accuracy.

But, I have to ask, when is the summer season? On March, which is the phase of gradual transition to the rainy season, which is not significantly hotter than the dry season, yet cooler than the peak of the rainy season; or on October, which is only slightly cooler than the peak of the rainy season and in the phase of the transition to the dry season? The description of the 3 seasons (summer, rainy, winter) applies to places such as New Delhi which has a season with significantly hotter temperatures, a rainy (slightly cooler) season and a relatively cool (dry) season. At least there has to be something different in the supposed summer season in Darjeeling to consider it really a different season, for example, as having more winds or less winds than the other seasons. If that's true, then probably the 3 season description is true. In most of Egypt, as an example, there are no more than 3 distinctive seasons, a hot long summer (June-October), a cool winter (November-February) and a windy season (March-May). Because there are some differences in the year, we can distinguish them, however, as it lies in a sub-tropical region, it has no true 4 seasons, sometimes even classified as only having 2 seasons. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 15:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Edits on "Religion"

I have made a partial revert of changes to the section about religion. According to the 2001 census (see source in article), the three main religions in the district were Hinduism (1,237,714 persons), Buddhism (177,327) and Christianity (99,232), as the article previously stated, with no other religions mentioned in the census summary because of the small number of adherents, so an edit prominently mentioning animism (with no source) and just making a casual mention of the third largest religion, Christianity, with a statement that " Christianity is also followed by people, particularly those belonging to the Lepcha community, who were converted by the British and Scottish missionaries in the 19th century" seems like POV to me. Especially since the Lepcha, who according to the 2001 census numbered only about 31,000, would make up less than a third of the Christians, even if they were all Christian. I also couldn't find any source for the claim about them being converted in the 19th century, so I removed it. Thomas.W ^talk 21:39, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

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IPA Pronunciation of "Darjeeling"

Hi everyone, since an English IPA for the pronunciation of Darjeeling has recently been added to the lead, I definitely think an IPA for the Nepali pronunciation of Darjeeling (and maybe Bengali, since it is in West Bengal) should also be added to the lead because the word is pronounced slightly differently in both languages compared with English. I might do something myself later if I look it up and listen to the pronunciations enough to find the appropriate phonetic symbols but since I'm no expert at either language and since there is no separate IPA help page for the Nepali language (since Bengali alone alongside English would be inadequate considering Nepali is the predominant language in Darjeeling), I think it would be good if anyone else can add this on. Many thanks. Broman178 (talk) 09:22, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Broman178, I think Bengali and Nepal IPA should be mentioned since both are official languages. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:31, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Or we can keep it as it is since Kolkata also has only English IPA. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:38, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. If you look at the Kolkata article carefully though, you'll see there is also an IPA for Bengali as well as English (beside the audio sample). Which is one reason why I think a Nepali and Bengali IPA would be useful here (the Delhi article has IPA's for English, Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu). If the pronunciation in English is the same as the ones in the native language, then an English IPA alone is enough but if the native pronunciation is different from the common English pronunciation, then a separate IPA for the native one is required. Darjeeling definitely is pronounced slightly differently in Nepali and Bengali, especially the former. Broman178 (talk) 09:48, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Broman178, Since the word Darjeeling itself is of Tibetan origin, it is likely that both Nepalis and Bengalis are pronouncing it wrong. Secondly, in India, English words themselves are pronounced with such heavy accent that common English words can become unintelligible e.g. School is pronounced as sa-kool in heavy accented Punjabi while in Hindi and Bengali it is is-kool or es-kool. Having stayed in this region, I can tell you that Nepalis spell it like dar-zee-ling while Bengalis daar-jee-ling, where the 'd' is obviously pronounced as 'th' in the word The. I'm not a linguist, but you can see both forms have something common with the official name of the town. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:09, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I've just added an IPA for both Nepali and Bengali for Darjeeling in the lead based on what you explained and what I've listened in both languages in Google Translate and elseware (though if theres any mistake, it would need correcting). As to whether Nepali's or Bengali's are pronouncing it wrong, I doubt that matters much unless there is a predominant Tibetan pronunciation in common use because many words originated from another language become adopted by the people inhabiting the area and speaking a different language (for instance in England, there are many words of Norse or Celtic origin which have become adopted by the English language with some slight pronunciation changes). Would be useful if a linguist or someone speaking either Nepali or Bengali (or Tibetan) commented on this matter. Broman178 (talk) 11:24, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I've to remove the scripts as per WP:NOINDICSCRIPT and I'll the arrange the IPA as per official sources which is also alphabetical. Thanks again. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I've just removed the English pronunciation from the lead upon further reflection while keeping Bengali & Nepali in because its not really needed considering Darjeeling is not a counterintuitive name (theres only one way to pronounce words like "ar", "ee" and "ing" in English unless other dialects/languages have affected it) and is quite a common name too considering the Worldwide fame of the Darjeeling Tea & the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway. I did this in response to User:Gotitbro removing the Bengali & Nepali pronunciations claiming they were not needed while keeping English in, even though as the discussion above suggests, they are pronounced differently for both languages compared with English, making them more appropriate than an English IPA for a non-counterintuitive name. Broman178 (talk) 16:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Darjeeling snowfall 2019.jpg (discussion)
• Mahaldhiram from Tiger Hill.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:14, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

FA in need of review

This Featured Article has fallen bellow the current FA criteria. Issues:

• image placement fails MOS:SANDWICH;
• some images seem decorative only: for instance, do we need 2 images of the Batasia Loop War Memorial or 2 views from Tiger Hill?
• unsourced statements (I've tagged some of them);

• the article is full of original research, I had to actually read some of the links at the end of the paragraphs to verify if they covered the full preceding paragraph. The few ones I checked did not;

• dated statements:

• As of 2011, the Gorkha Janmukti Morcha (GJMM) holds power in the municipality. - 2011 was ten years ago;

• poor prose:

• Within the town, people usually traverse by walking. Residents also use two-wheelers and hired taxis for travelling short distances.;
• Locals love Aloo Dom (spicy steamed potato curry) and various versions of it are served. For example, they add Wai Wai Mimi instant noodles over a bowl of Aloo Dom and call it Aloo Mimi.

• why the non-existent section about political unrest?

Article needs work. RetiredDuke (talk) 15:53, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

• Y. I cleaned up the Etymology and History sections. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:05, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Pictures

Dear @Dwaipayanc: Great to see that you are working on this! I had a thought that I might improve the images in the infobox which seem to be old and in some cases low-res (e.g. Northpoint, which I understand to be a school?). I took a stab at the infobox of Delhi earlier today, changing an old collage from 2009 for a multi-image format in the style of the New York City infobox. I will attempt the same with Darjeeling if that is OK with you. You are welcome to revert any or all of the added images. I will try to pick WP Quality Images as much as I'm able to (I doubt there will be too many FPs). Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've added eight new images. All are WP Quality Pictures. All capture the municipality which is what this article is about. Let me know what you think. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:01, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Fowler! Really appreciate your interest in this article, and working on this. Images are fantastic. Only one request: perhaps the Botanical garden image in the collage may be replaced with a good quality tea-garden image (if available)?

While images are very important, honestly I am more concerned with referencing, and prose. I am more hopeful now since you are actively editing. Let's see if we can keep the FA status. Thanks a lot. Regards, --Dwaipayan (talk) 16:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I've swapped the Botanical garden for a WP Quality pic of a tea garden with human settlement around it, making it more likely that it is in the Darjeeling municipality, the geographical extent of our page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I just read your edit summaries for the collage, and realized that the reason of removal of a tea garden image was they are unlikely to be within the municipality (or, there is usually no way to ensure whether they garden in the image is within the municipality). Agree with your reasoning. Anyway, images can be worked on (if needed, at all) later. Please also go through the prose. Thanks! --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:30, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Fowler's reverts

So in this edit, Fowler reverts two small edits that I had made, calling them "adding 3rd-rate sources".

Kumar Pradhan is essentially the top historian of Nepal, admired by both Indians and Nepalese. His book on Gorkha conquests, published by Oxford University Press, has 206 citations on Google scholar

Amar Kaur Jasbir Singh was presumably a younger researcher at the time she wrote her book, but it still has 66 citations on Google scholar. Alastair Lamb, who reviewed her book along with two others, writes:

In two superbly produced British Library publications Rajkumari Amar Kaur Jasbir Singh catalogues these records, relating not only to Tibet but also to Sikkim and Bhutan; and in Himalayan triangle, which is in effect a very long introductory essay, she explains how they can be interpreted. The results is a work of scholarship of great importance not only to historians but also to those concerned with current affairs.

Lamb in fact castigates the two other authors he reviews here, saying that they could have benefited by referring to her wrk. That is hardly something one would call "3rd-rate".

So what gives? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:12, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, OK, go tell that sob story to someone Mr 189th in the list of contributors to this page. The article is being read by FAR coord Hog Farm at the end of an FAR that has last some six months, and in you come insouciantly adding random Gotcha sentences because you have some quarrel with me on other pages. How shameful is this? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:23, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

@Abecedare, DrKay, RegentsPark, Vanamonde93, Bishonen, and SandyGeorgia: you adjudicate. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:26, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

And I forgot @Dwaipayanc:, who has made stalwart contributions to this page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:39, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

The article's history section (and food and education to which I have also contributed) uses the following sources:

• Bhattacharya, Nandini (2022), "Imperial Sanctuaries: The hill stations of colonial South Asia", in Fischer-Tiné, Harald; Framke, Maria (eds.), Routledge Handbook of the History of Colonialism in South Asia, London and New York: Routledge, doi:10.4324/9780429431012-26, ISBN 978-1-138-36484-4, S2CID 238650973
• Dasgupta, Atis (1999). "Ethnic Problems and Movements for Autonomy in Darjeeling". Social Scientist. 27 (11–12). Social Scientist: 47–68. doi:10.2307/3518047. JSTOR 3518047.
• Kennedy, Dane (1996). Magic Mountains: Hill Stations and the British Raj. University of California Press. p. 265. ISBN 978-0-520-20188-0.
• Middleton, Townsend; Shneiderman, Sara, eds. (2018). Darjeeling Reconsidered: Histories, Politics, Environments. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-948355-6.
• Shneiderman, Sara; Middleton, Townsend (2018), "Introduction: Reconsidering Darjeeling", in Middleton, Townsend; Shneiderman, Sara (eds.), Darjeeling Reconsidered: Histories, Politics, Environments, New Delhi: Oxford University Press, pp. 1–23, ISBN 978-0-19-948355-6
• Tamang, Jyoti P.; Sarkar, Prabir K; Hesseltine, Clifford W (1988). "Traditional Fermented Foods and Beverages of Darjeeling" (PDF). Journal of the Science of Food and Agriculture. 44 (4): 375–385. doi:10.1002/jsfa.2740440410. Archived from the original (PDF) on 21 July 2011.

Can I add more? Sure I can. I can add dozens. But at what cost? And what benefit? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:50, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Blah, blah, blah. Do you have anything to justify your reverts? If not, the content will go back in. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I've asked some seasoned hands to adjudicate. There is always room for one more reference in any WP article, but at what cost and what relevance? Your edits are undue. You've moreover removed some transitional sentences I wrote (a prose version of a comment adverb) at the beginning of the British Raj section for the benefit of an unfamiliar reader, you deducing somehow that it promotes British-related periodization. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:19, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I have to also worry about things like making sure that the list of fermented ethnic foods is a relatively complete one. Upon finding that it is not, I am the one who has begun to create WP pages such Goyang (fermented food) and have others lined up Chu/sheddon (fermented dairy food), Somar (fermented food), Mesu (fermented fish), Gnuchi (fermented fish), Karyong (fermented meat) to add to WP articles such as Sel roti, Kinema, Masaura, Churpi, Sukuti ... and to then teasing out broad descriptive prose from it, veering away from the listy. For that is the traditional food of the region, not what restaurants in Darjeeling serve to tourists both Indian and foreign. I have to also worry about making the education section realistic, moving it away from the inherited schools of the Raj which are described in the history section, and which the children of the Indian elite attend today to the education of residents of Darjeeling, such as the tea garden workers, most of whom do not even finish primary school. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:09, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

And these use:

• Lama, Smritima Diksha (2022), "Tea Plantation Workers and the Human Cost of Darjeeling Tea", in Acharya, Sanghmitra S.; Christopher, Stephen (eds.), Caste, COVID-19, and inequalities of Care: Lessons from South Asia, People, Culture and Societies:Exploring and Documenting Diversities, Springer, ISBN 978-981-16-6916-3
• Tamang, Jyoti Prakash (2010), Himalayan fermented foods: Microbiology, Nutrition and Ethnic Values, Boca Raton: CRC Press, ISBN 978-1-4200-9324-7
• Tamang, Jyoti Prakash; Thapa, Namrata; Bhalla, Tek Chand; Savitri (2016), "Ethnic Fermented Foodsand Beverages of India", in Tamang, J. P. (ed.), Ethnic Fermented Foods and Alcoholic Beverages of Asia, Springer, pp. 17–72, ISBN 978-81-322-2798-4 Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:11, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Sure, you can worry about whatever you want to worry about. But please don't mess with my edits unless you have policy-based reasons to do so. You have had three opportunities to do so. Once in edit summary, and twice in the above discussion. Since you haven't provided any reasonable justification, I am reinstating my edits. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:39, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Before you do that, please tell me how did you summarize the content between pages 133 and 135 of Pradhan's PhD dissertation of 1982, reprinted by Calcutta OUP, and in 2009 by Himal Books, Kathmandu, with John Whelpton's introduction, as, "The Gorkhas established a garrison at Darjeeling and used it to administer the area.{{sfn|Pradhan|1991|pp=133–135}} I might have the page numbers mixed up, but I am reading something else.

The Gorkhalis in Sikkim were stationed at Darjeeling and Nagari* ... Hamilton wrote that beyond Nagari and Sa-tang (Sitong) 'one day's journey' away was Darjeeling, 'on the other side of the high mountains, which would appear to be the chief fortress of the country, as it is there that the Gorkhalese troops are mostly stationed'... The Lepcha inhabitants of the subjugated part of Sikkim did not reconcile with Gorkhali rule. They were so troublesome that the Gorkhalis judged it prudent to give them or else allow them to retain their own governor or collector.

The Lepchas are the major original inhabitants of Darjeeling, who grace the history section with text and a picture acknowledging their lost hunter-gatherer life and new colonial occupations. But if they had their own Governor, the Gorkhas weren't quite administering. I will get to the issue of Kumar Pradhan's book with many unreliable stories later. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:36, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

There is also in that book: It was to investigate this dispute that Lord William Bentinck deputed Captain G.W. Lloyd and G.W. Grant in 1828. They penetrated into the hills and came up to 'the old Gorkha station of Dorjiling' where Lloyd spent six days in February 1829. They were charmed by the site and recommended to the Governor-General that Daijeeling would make an ideal health resort for European soldiers. Accordingly, in 1829 they were instructed to visit Sikkim once more, ac companied by a surveyor. Captain Herbert, to examine the full possibilities offered by the place. They remained at Darjeeling, then deserted by the Lepchas, for some time. But it wasn't really deserted by the Lepchas at all. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:45, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

They came upon the old Gorkha station now, not fortress. So, what vaunted "fortress" of previous description was this that not a trace has survived? Administering a large territory requires a lot of manpower. Where are the records? All Pradhan can find is some letter written by Hamilton using "appears," "mostly," and other hallmarks of vagueness. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

We say in the article: For much of the 18th century, the Chogyal-ruler of the Kingdom of Sikkim to the north had affirmed possession of the hills and valleys between the Mechi and Teesta rivers among which Darjeeling lies. In the last decades of the century, the Gurkhas of Nepal made a military push to the east bringing the region into Gurkha Empire. They stopped short of the Teesta river, the territory to its east remaining a part of the Kingdom of Bhutan.

In the middle you have: <<Added the text:The Gorkhas established a garrison at Darjeeling and used it to administer the area.>>

And we then continue: British interference in territorial matters in the region began in the aftermath of the East India Company army's victory against the Gurkhas in the Anglo-Nepalese War, fought between 1814 and 1816.

So am I allowed to ask: how long was this garrison maintained given that the Gurkhas were in the region for barely two decades. We say earlier that the Chogyal of Sikkim had affirmed possession of the region for the much of the 18th-century, and Pradhan seems to corroborate that when he says, "the subjugated part of Sikkim." But we don't say anything about his fortresses from which he no doubt did administer the lands. Besides, we have a map, the only map of all of turn-of-the-19th-century India, which shows the Gorkha empire and Darjeeling firmly in it.

Then what is your edit if not undue? That is assuming you have paraphrased the source correctly, which I am not seeing at this point.

And what happened to WP:OWN#Featured_articles. With nary an edit to this page it did not occur to you to "ask on the talk page first?" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:58, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Now let's get to your other edit cited to Amar Kaur Singh (after you had attempted to establish the existence of a Gorkha presence in Darjeeling from which they "administered" the Darjeeling hills) in which you add:

"(they) passed by the deserted Gorkha outpost at Darjeeling and thought it to be suitable for a military station as well as a sanatorium"

• First there is simple lack of coherence:

• Just a few sentences earlier you were calling Darjeeling a "garrison" which was used to "administer the area." "Garrison" in common parlance is a garrison town, especially one that might have ambitions of administering, as Meerut was (see the lead of Indian rebellion of 1857). It is is not just an outpost
• What is a military station? and
• What is a sanatorium which links to a medical facility for the treatment of long-term disability such as TB, and when it is not doing that it might link to Sanatorium (resort)s which dotted the Black and Caspian Seas and to which the citizens of the Soviet Republics retired before Gorbachev and Reagan conspired to end their privileges. There is no indication in the edit that sanatorium had a different meaning in British India.
• By using the definite article "the," you are referring to something that you failed to establish earlier.

• Then there is a question of reading the forest for the trees. Singh says many things.

• It is true she says on page 177, Two officers, J W Grant and Captain G S Lloyd, were deputed to investigate the dispute, and it was during their enquiries that they came upon 'a' deserted Gurkha outpost called Dorje Ling. 64

but she uses the indefinite article, which doesn't speak to the major presence bespeaking a center of administration.

• There is a still bigger problem. A few pages earlier, she says on page 165:

  As the Gurkhas made preparations for an invasion of Sikkim territory, a warning from Tibet, which considered Sikkim to be a dependency, together with the death of Prithvi Narayan Shah in 1775, temporarily put a stop to the Gurkhas' plans. Infiltration and skirmishing between the Lepchas and the Gurkhas continued along the Arnn river ...The Gurkhas had no intention of honouring the treaty, and almost immediately launched an attack into Sikkim .. For nine years, the Lepchas held up the Gurkhas, until in 1788 the ruling prince was defeated and fled to Tibet. While there, the Tibetan Government provided him with military assistance as did the Deb Raja of Bhutan, and with their joint help he returned to evict the Gurkhas from his land. By the time the Sikkim Raja had expelled them, the Bhutanese troops sent to help him had mutinied amongst themselves due to lack of pay and provisions, thus providing the Gurkhas with an opportunity to take refuge in the fort at Nagri, within the borders of Sikkim, and there to await for their own reinforcements to arrive. When the Gurkhas finally returned, they were able to conquer Sikkim territory west of the Tista river, and compel the Raja and his loyal Lepcha General to take refuge in the fort at Gangtok. Here they ensconced themselves and were found, with their faithful band of followers, harassing the Gurkhas when the British went to war with Nepal in 1814.

• So how much time did the Gorkhas have to "administer?" How relevant is this when he have already mentioned the major participants in a distilled summary? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:24, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

• She too seems to think that Chairman Mao's dictum, beloved from the Red Book, could have been: "When the Gorkhas advance, the Lepchas retreat. When the Gorkhas camp, the Lepchas harrass. When the Gorkhas tire, the Lepchas attack. And when the Gorkhas retreat, the Lepchas pursue." So when was the administering going on by the Gorkhas, when the Governor in any case was Lepcha? In other words, your edits are not only undue, they are incoherent and based on an erroneous interpretations of your own sources, even if I were to grant—which I do not for a minute—that the sources offer the kind of distilled summary that Shneiderman, Sara; Middleton, Townsend (2018), "Introduction: Reconsidering Darjeeling", in Middleton, Townsend; Shneiderman, Sara (eds.), Darjeeling Reconsidered: Histories, Politics, Environments, New Delhi: Oxford University Press, pp. 1–23, ISBN 978-0-19-948355-6 do. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  That latter summary is the one we have used in this article. It is better that scholars summarize than we do Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:51, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  Finally, the sentence itself, "(they) passed by the deserted Gorkha outpost at Darjeeling and thought it to be suitable for a military station as well as a sanatorium." They did not think the station and sanatorium would be built inside the deserted outpost. How big was this deserted outpost? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

References