Talk:Critical Role/Archive 3

Should Critical Role (the live show) and Critical Role Productions LLC have separate articles?

@QueerFilmNerd: you mentioned last night that the Campaign two section is getting quite long and is not slowing down. Given the length of the plot summaries of both campaigns, I wanted to open a community discussion. Should we think about spinning out a separate article for the live show from the company? Or should the plot summaries of both campaigns be condensed & reduced? I created a separate article for the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount since it has enough notability for its own article. I assume when the animated show drops, it will get a separate article page in the style of TV show articles. I believe that the live show has enough notability to have a standalone article. Thoughts? Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

We could also move just the plot summaries over to their own story arcs article (example: List of The Wicked + The Divine story arcs) rather than splitting the entire CR live show from the company. Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:47, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Agree. I'm not sure the production company is WP:notable enough outside of the main show at the moment - that might change once the animated series is available. Spinning out an episode list is probably a better way to go. In fact, I made a start on this a while back. However I've not had time to watch since the thanksgiving break , and I try to avoid spoilers. Little pob (talk) 22:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

@Little pob: MOS:TVSPLIT says "considering episode summaries alone, it would take between 50 and 60 episodes to warrant separating those summaries off the main page to an List of Episodes page" so I think that's the way to go. If you move the page you started to a draft page, I can start filling in gaps (as I don't care about spoilers). Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree, I don't think CR as a production company meets notability guidelines, but I agree with the episode page. I agree, move the episodes to a draft and we can see how long it gets. I don't know whether or not we'd need the split the campaigns, maybe if we keep the descriptions really short. Also, I don't believe CR streams to YT anymore, just Twitch I believe. QueerFilmNerd^talk 05:34, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

We could continue the style of doing descriptions for each story arc (rather than for each episode) on the episode list page. CR doesn't stream to YouTube but they do post the episodes on YouTube a few days after the live stream on Twitch. To watch it on demand on Twitch you have to subscribe to their Twitch channel. Sariel Xilo (talk) 05:43, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I think we could see how long the episode page ends up being with short descriptions. I definitely think it could work. They did stream to Youtube when they were with G&S, but stopped (I believe because Twitch doesn't let you multi-stream but G&S had a deal?), just pointing it out for the table the other person made that stated it originally aired on (and I'm thinking streaming when I see this) on Twitch & and Youtube, but that's only half true now. They switched early last year. QueerFilmNerd^talk 01:13, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

@Sariel Xilo: If you move the page you started to a draft page, I can start filling in gaps done - though I can't get Critical Role within the title to italicise? Little pob (talk) 11:31, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

@Little pob: I'm not sure how you get titles to italicize - I've always relied on info boxes to do that automatically. I added all the dates for campaign 2 & guest stars for both campaigns. I haven't touched the one-shots. I've also created a talk page with the draft if we want to move further discussion on list specific article format/content to there. Sariel Xilo (talk) 02:11, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I did the one-shots (I would like to thank the Critical Role Wikia as I didn't know how to spell a bunch of the names of the guests haha). We are missing some that aren't linked through G&S or CR that the wikia has so we'll just need to add those. As well, several of the episodes have different titles on the G&S website, so we'll just wanna take note of that! I've asked a couple other questions over on that talk page. QueerFilmNerd^talk 02:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Productions

Hey @Little pob: I went with "former programming" rather than "canceled" because that's the format used on most "lists of programs broadcast" (List of programs broadcast by Freeform, List of programs broadcast by Disney Channel, etc) and so we could include limited series (which are designed to be a single season). But I didn't want to change the section heading without a discussion first. :) I also wanted to know what you think of removing Critical Recap & Handbooker Helper from the "Spin-offs" section and folding any key information into the "Productions" section. I'd like to reduce repetitive information in the article given the length. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sariel Xilo: that's an interesting point. I'm a big fan of precedent when it comes to consensus, and there's WP:BRD too, so will change back to "former programming" pending more voices.

I also wanted to know what you think of removing Critical Recap & Handbooker Helper from the "Spin-offs" section and folding any key information into the "Productions" section. I'd like to reduce repetitive information in the article given the length. I like, and I think we can be a bit more aggressive... How about moving the one shots to the bottom of "campaign structure"? Then copy edit what's left in to the company & studio section? I'd suggest the content around the third-party stuff (SFG minis, Pillars of Eternity, Dark Horse comics etc) is copy edited into a new "licenced works" sub-section. But everything left would sit neatly under "productions" - though I'm less sure how that section should be organised. It should make it much easier to spin the company section out to its own article should the need arise. Little pob (talk) 20:02, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Little pob: I agree with merging everything under in "Spin offs shows" section into either the "Production" section or the "Campaign structure" section & renaming the "Spin offs" section "Licensed works and related products". I was adding sources to the "Company and studio" section with the intent that eventually it would be spun out into a separate article from the CR show. When the studio has its own article, I think some of the licensed works would move to the studio page (video games, minis, merch related stuff) and the products directly related to the CR story (comics, campaign & art books, etc) would stay. Given the amount of notable sources for the animated show, I think it is ready to be spun out into a separate article (like I did for Explorer's Guide to Wildemount). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Little pob: I had the time so I've created Draft:Critical Role Productions for the studio. I mostly copied & pasted info from the CR page with some slight copy editing. I think with a few more sources in the history section, the article will be ready to go. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:17, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sariel Xilo: looks good! Hoping I'll be able to chip-in at evenings over the week. Little pob (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Searchable Transcript Archive (new resource)

FYI, someone put together a timestamped searchable transcript archive (with official permission) for all of campaigns 1 & 2: https://kryogenix.org/crsearch/. More details here: https://twitter.com/sil/status/1277987761212076032 Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Concision

The summary for the plot is remarkably long and detailed; campaign 2 alone is currently over 2000 words. I think we should be editing the plot summary down for concision. There is an awful lot of material to cover, but for comparison the Bleach (manga) article summarises a 74 volume series in half that length. The article has 88kb of legible text- on the high end for an article in general- but a large chunk of that is the plot summary, so it should also resolve that issue without need for split. --ERAGON (talk) 00:05, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Hey ERAGON! A few of us have been working on this issue over here: Draft:List of Critical Role episodes. It's been slow going but if you could help, that would be awesome. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 00:30, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Xilo. Good to know that there is an article like that in development; the summary section can be extremely cut-down once that is done. I'll see if I can jump in on the list of episodes. --ERAGON (talk) 09:43, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. We were able to get this article under 100 kb by splitting off some of it into Critical Role Productions. Given WP:SIZERULE, I've also created Draft:Critical Role: Vox Machina Origins (which just needs plot summary added and a copy-edit) and I plan on creating an article for the animated show (so we can move everything about the Kickstarter there). I haven't made an article for the animated show yet because the release date has been delayed and I'm concerned about WP:CRYSTALBALL. But if other editors think it is fine, we could start a draft for it. I think once the comics/animation is split off & the plot summary is reduced, this article should be way more readable. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:31, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Big shout out to all the editors (such as Little pob, QueerFilmNerd, ERAGON, etc) who worked on this. We've reduced this article to just under 78kb – down from over 97kb in February 2020. The articles that got spun out (List of Critical Role episodes, Critical Role (campaign one), & Critical Role (campaign two)) are all live. Campaign one still needs additional episode summaries (Chroma Conclave arc to Cult of Vecna arc) so if plot summaries are your thing, please update what you can. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Articles for individual campaigns

Over at Draft:List of Critical Role episodes we've been working on episode summary tables and so forth to eventually split off into articles for each campaign. I've now created the first of these, Critical Role campaign two. There is a work in progress for the first campaign on the draft article but still needs a lot of work. --ERAGON (talk) 21:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

As per the concision discussion from above, I've deleted the several-thousand-word-long summary of campaign two from this article, as the new article has episode-by-episode summaries.--ERAGON (talk) 21:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Copyedit request for the GOCE

• Campaign one ended in October 2017 after 115 episodes, and campaign two [...] Already edited, links removed. I'm following the styling as given by the daughter article titles (Critical Role (campaign one) and Critical Role (campaign two)), but have the campaigns ever been officially stylised as Campaign One, campaign 1, or Campaign 1? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I think the issue is that the style has never been formalized so it depends on the source if campaign is being capitalized. This came up in discussion when creating the spinoff articles and we decided to go with the lower case style since a TV season is typically lowercase across Wikipedia & this was the closest analog. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Keeping as is, then. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• The players enjoyed the game so much that they continued to play it while switching to Pathfinder. Already edited, italics in original. More a question about terms, but should Pathfinder be described as a ruleset? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Pathfinder is a different game system that is compatible with the older 3.5 D&D edition so ruleset probably works. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Added the qualifier. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Not all Critical Role one-shots use the Dungeons & Dragons game system, as some are based on RPG systems. Is the word "other" missing before "RPG", as D&D is a TTRPG system? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Added it in.

• The split from Legendary Digital Networks was completed in early 2019, at which point Critical Role studio took over production responsibility of the Critical Role and Talks Machina shows. This is already mentioned up in the "Background" section: In February 2019, Critical Role finalized its split from Geek & Sundry and Legendary Digital Networks, with live broadcasts of their shows and VODs airing exclusively on Critical Role's channels (already edited). Would it be more appropriate to move the second paragraph into "Critical Role company and studio", as the entire paragraph in question is talking about the company? The distinction that's already made by the two sections "Background" and "Critical Role company and studio" suggests that "Background" should talk about events that happened before the company was formed. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I think that's fine as long as it is clear in the Background section that show is no longer on the Geek & Sundry channel. Maybe the studio bit should be a subsection within Background? Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion: What about adding some more information after the Geek & Sundry mention in the background, like [...] playing it in a live-stream format for Geek & Sundry, which hosted the show until February 2019? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

That sounds good. Sariel Xilo (talk) 04:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Added proposed text, and merged paragraph into "Critical Role company and studio". —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• In December 2015, the cast released a "Critter's Guide to Critmas" in response to the flood of gifts they were receiving from fans [...] What is "Critter's Guide to Critmas" considered? A news item? A blog post? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Difficult. I believe the Geek & Sundry site refers to posts on there as articles, so I'd lean towards that. The guide is also addressed on the Campaign One page. --ERAGON (talk) 00:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Qualified it as an article. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• a second Fireside Chat with Matt Mercer [...] Is "Matt Mercer" part of the "Fireside Chat" title? That is, would it be Fireside Chat with Matt Mercer or Fireside Chat with Mercer? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Unclear, I think the Mercer line there is to distinguish it from historic fireside chats. An old G&S article is called "WELCOME TO MATT MERCER’S FIRESIDE CHAT". Lean towards it just being called "Fireside Chat" in terms of the title.--ERAGON (talk) 00:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I consulted this video, which I believe is the correct one. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• One-shot sponsors have included Middle-earth: Shadow of War, Hearthstone, and Call of Cthulhu. Italics in original. Shouldn't the sponsors be the companies that produced the games, not the games themselves? Could the intended word be shoutouts? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not clear if it is a shoutout. I think the pattern has been highlighting the game system they're playing rather than the company that makes the game. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I would reword perhaps to "One-shot sponsorships have previously supported games such as Middle-earth: Shadow of War, Hearthstone, and Call of Cthulhu. --ERAGON (talk) 00:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

ERAGON, if I'm understanding this correctly, it was Critical Role that had a role in sponsoring these games, not the other way around? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 02:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, CR does a mix of one-shots that are sponsored and ones that aren't. In the case of these 3, these companies paid CR to run either a game with their system (Cthulhu) or run a oneshot based on their game (Shadow of War & Hearthstone aren't TTRPGs so they used modified D&D rules set in these settings). Sariel Xilo (talk) 04:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, this makes more sense now: the companies sponsored Critical Role to run oneshots themed on their games. In that case, the companies should be mentioned; to confirm, the sponsoring companies are Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment (Middele-earth: Shadow of War), Blizzard Entertainment (Hearthstone), and Chaosium (Call of Cthulhu)? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

That works, I'd be fine with that.--ERAGON (talk) 13:52, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Added those companies in. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• On January 13, 2020, Wizards of the Coast and Critical Role announced the launch of the second book [...] Links and italics in original. It wasn't the company that announced the launch, but the show? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

The issue I've run into is that both the cast & secondary sources tend to refer to the show & the studio interchangeably but in this case I think they announced it on the show. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure the distinction is notable, as its the same team regardless, just the venue of the announcement here that is in question. In any case I believe it was a statement on the company website rather than the show as January 13th was a Monday.--ERAGON (talk) 13:52, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

 Tentatively done. It sounds more natural to me to refer to the team or company for making announcements, but feel free to re-italicise "Critical Role". —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• "to leave the world better than we found it". Just double-checking, is this their entire mission statement or just a part of it? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

As far as I can tell that's their mission statement. I've not seen any longer statements from a quick browse of the site.--ERAGON (talk) 13:52, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I found this page. It seems to be carried over as a core value, but mission statement specifically for the foundation works just as well. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sariel Xilo: That's my turn; now passing it over to you. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

@Tenryuu: I took a stab at the first few questions. I have to look into the last few. To editors ERAGON, Little pob and Shadzar: Pinging a few others who might have some insight on all of this. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sariel Xilo and ERAGON: Alright, that's all my questions addressed. I'll give it one final look-see in an hour to make sure it's all good. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Update: Think that's everything on my end. May you roll nat 20s when nominating this article. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sariel Xilo and Tenryuu: thanks for everything; really makes a difference dotting the "I"s and crossing the "T"s here.--ERAGON (talk) 00:50, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Notification of requested moves related to Critical Role

• Critical Role (campaign one) → ''Vox Machina'' – (Discuss) – The current title is not really specific enough. This is effectively the first season of Critical Role, but as it focuses on a group of adventurers knowm by the name "Vox Machina", that seems like a more accurate title. Alternatively, "Vox Machina (Critical Role)" might work. 1.129.104.85 (talk) 05:36, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
• Critical Role (campaign two) → ''The Mighty Nein'' – (Discuss) – The current title is not really specific enough. This is effectively the second season of Critical Role, but as it focuses on a group of adventurers knowm by the name "The Mighty Nein", that seems like a more accurate title. Alternatively, "The Mighty Nein (Critical Role)" might work. 1.129.104.85 (talk) 05:34, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Notification posted here by Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:28, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Using WikiData for C2 episode count

Given that there are at least 3 places that list the episode count for campaign 2; is there objection/consensus to just pulling the value from WikiData? If we use {{#statements:P1113|from=Q104603368}}, which will return 141, we can grab the episode count for campaign 2 so that it only needs updating the once – on WikiData – each time a new episode is aired. I'm only suggesting this for campaign 2; as campaign 1 is now a "fixed" number. Once C2 ends, we can list the final episode count within the page (theoretically reduces page load time, but it's milliseconds difference). Thoughts? Questions? Little pob (talk) 15:55, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

That sounds amazing. I've never used WikiData but I can roundup a list of articles/tables that have the episode count. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:12, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Critical Role: Infobox & the table under Campaign structure; List of Critical Role episodes: table under Series overview & table under Campaign two (2018–current). Surprisingly, Critical Role (campaign two) doesn't seem to need it since the episode count is just in the episode summary table which needs to be manually updated since it's not just a ticker. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC) (Just noticed that the episode count is in the campaign two infobox so I've updated it to the WikiData link.) Sariel Xilo (talk) 07:10, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Yep, you'd just to go to Q104603368. Update the number of episodes parameter, and it will automatically display the episode count wherever we add the relevant template. I do want to point out that a lot of editors do not like WikiData, and there is no consensus to use its data on Wikipedia. As far as I'm aware; local consensus is supposed to be sort when looking to implement on an article (unless there is general acceptance for its inclusion by an overseeing WikiProject (e.g. WP:MED use WikiData in a couple of their templates). It should be pointed out that, like Wikipedia, WikiData is editable by anyone. Because there are fewer active editors over there to catch vandalism, however, if someone was to change the episode count to an incorrect value or something offensive it might not get caught as quickly. Little pob (talk) 19:18, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

It's been nearly two weeks; pending any objections in the meantime, I will implement this over the weekend. (Assuming I don't get caught in the grind on Valheim...) Little pob (talk) 16:49, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Have now implemented. Little pob (talk) 13:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

The Legend of Vox Machina

An IP editor created an initial draft for the animated show back in February 2021. I just did a big update to it but I think it should stay in drafts until there's an announced release date & more critical coverage (WP:CRYSTALBALL). Here's the link: Draft:The Legend of Vox Machina. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:43, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

It wasn't me, but thank you for doing that! 207.229.139.227 (talk) 01:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)