Talk:Columbo/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Headings

Added headings on April 19, 2004 --MGM

Columbo speaking Italian

Does Columbo really speak Italian? There was an episode where he solved a murder with the help of a maffioso. When this guy asked him in Italian, Columbo pretty much seemed that he didn't speak any Italian at all, despite his Italian ancestry. How comes this statement then? Chery 07:13, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Columbo speaks Italian. In the episode with Rip Torn as the uncle who murders his lottery winning nephew he speaks Italian to the old lady. He also speaks quite a bit of Italian to Mario, the young waiter, in "Murder Under Glass". I've never heard him speak Spanish, however.---B- 02:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

And a great deal of Italian with Vito Scotti, for whom Patrick McGoohan writes the speech that destroys his alibi, in "Identity Crisis". He speaks some Spanish in "A Matter of Honor", although mostly of the phrase book variety. -- Signinstranger 16:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Columbo's Family

It's very difficult to say for certain what his family structure is or what they do. He refers in almost every episode to a nephew, brother-in-law, or other family member but it's never clear if these people actually exist or if they are just an invented device that Columbo uses to gain the confidence of the suspect or to convey some idea or information in a non-threatening way. His wife we can be certain exists because she is seen by other characters (though not by the audience of course) in "Troubled Waters". He apparently does have at least one niece and one nephew since he flashes a picture of them in "A Friend in Deed" and if he has a niece and nephew then clearly he must have at least a sister/brother or inlaws.

If he really does have all of the family he alludes to throughout the run of the series he'd have to have a fairly large and diverse family.

As to children, there is no evidence that Columbo and his wife have any children.---B- 08:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Internet Movie Database

As there is no single series entry on the IMDb, and there aren't separate Wikipedia pages for each episode, would it be worth linking each story title to its IMDb page? --Whouk (talk) 16:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

As no-one has objected, I'll go ahead with this. Any preference for format? We could have...

• Dead Weight (10/27/71) [1]
• Dead Weight (10/27/71) IMDb
• Dead Weight (10/27/71)

Should the date format be wikified for user preferences at the same time? —Whouk (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Gun

I was reminded tonight that Columbo does, reluctantly, carry a gun in one episode. In "Undercover" he is ordered to carry a gun and so he does -- even pulling it on Mo Weinberg early in the show. ---B- 07:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Indented line

Just saw this comment, having already amended the text (with reference) Philml (talk) 15:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Episode Details

I'd have to look it up to see who the actor actually was, but it certainly was not Anthony Edwards from ER playing Elliott Blake in "Columbo Goes to the Guillotine." ---B- 08:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It's Anthony Andrews from Brideshead Revisited. —Whouk (talk) 08:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"Forgotten Lady" : simple question: I wonder if this is the episode where Coloumbo "arrests" the husband of the killer instead ? - because she was suffering from some sort of senile disorder so she didn´t know that she had killed people - and futhermore she was dying so she would not stand trial anyway, and then her husband (with Colombo´s approval/knowledge) would admit the crime and then change testemony after she was dead

Probably not, since in "Forgotten Lady" the murderess killed her husband. It would be kinda hard for a dead man to admit to his own murder to cover up for his wife.

Answer to the "simple question" -- essentially, you're correct, although you've got some characters mixed up. In Forgotten Lady, the murderess killed her husband, but forgot about it because of a progressive neurological disorder (which IIRC was also fatal, although I'm unsure of that detail). The murderess's long-time colleague and friend (dance partner, they were both performers) confessed to the murder for the reasons you stated. Although it was never explicitly stated, it was made clear that Columbo knew that this confession was a sham, that he tacitly approved, and that he wouldn't try to expose the sham until after the murderess was dead ... As for how it relates to the content of the article, it might be worth making some reference to this to qualify any statements that "Columbo always gets his man"; in this episode, he kinda got the killer but not really. ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.67.148.92 (talk) 01:27, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Sign your posts. The talk page is not a public social forum to discuss minutiae about the subject of the article, it's an editorial forum to discuss changes to the article itself. Canonblack 01:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Misc

The existing page contains an error, it says that "No time to die" is the only time Columbo carried a gun. This is incorrect. Columbo also carries a gun in "Undercover." I have all 69 movies and have watched all of them many times. I realize that any edit I make to Wikipedia will immediately be "disappeared" by some hall monitor with a paper badge, so could one of you please correct the information on the page? Otherwise Wikipedia will continue to contain incorrect information. Also re Shera Danese she played an important role as a blackmailing law partner in "Murder in Malibu."

I changed the description of Shera Danese's roles from "small" to "various" because she actually had some moderately substantial roles; including playing the scheming wife in "A Trace of Murder" and the greedy Art Gallery owner in "Columbo Goes Undercover." She gets killed in "Columbo Goes Undercover" but since she's not really the primary victim I'm not sure that counts for our purposes as a "victim."---B- 23:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Ida Lupino is listed as a murderer and victim, she was never a murderer. As far as I can determine, only Shera Danese and Robert Vaughn have played both roles. Since Shera Danese, if memory serves, was only an accessory... Robert Vaughn is unique. Cave Draco 13:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

This page is way too long...

Would anyone object to creating a separate page to house the list of Columbo episodes?

Agreed, especially as I'm seeing warnings about the page size when I try to edit. I have created the List of Columbo Episodes page, and linked it in the spot on this page where they appeared previously.MArcane 04:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Old Neighborhood

If he's of Italian decent, and from "a neighborhood near Chinatown," can we assume he's from Little Italy, which abuts Chinatown? --♥ «Charles A. L.» 23:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Books

Would it be useful with a list of the books written by Harrington? -- Kms 14:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added book information from MCA publishing, see Columbo Books

--TonyinJersey 15:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Faye Dunaway

Is listed as one of the murderers but doesn't seem to appear in the list of episodes. Anybody know which one? SmokeyTheFatCat 17:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

She appears - she was in "It's All in the Game" in the 11th season. ---B- 23:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

List of Columbo Episodes

Per a recommendation made above, and due to the overly lengthy size of this article, I created the List of Columbo Episodes page. I have moved relevant talk items to that page's talk section. MArcane 04:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

Added the TV show infobox to help this match the style of other TV articles. The non-standard nature (ie. movie of the week) of this show makes me wonder about the show's run info, though. Not sure if it should only include NBC airings or the latter ABC movies as well? I included both for now, but am open to suggestions.MArcane 05:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Guest Stars

The List of guest stars was so long and clunky that I decided to make it into a table showing murderers and victims. I added the blurb about the victims, because I don't recall an episode in which Leslie Neilson is murdered, but I recall one where he was a witness. I left the miscellaneous guest stars section alone, since it has so much unique info that would be hard to put in a table. Suggestions welcome.MArcane 06:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Still seems clunky to me. I want to add that Dean Stockwell has appeared in two episodes, being a victim in one of them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.5.147.1 (talk) 15:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Not a very clever detective

As Columbo latches onto the killer at the start of every investigation and never attempts to involve any other suspect, I would suggest his detective skills are subordinate to his powers of Extrasensory Perception. Guv2006 22:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, we have to bear in mind that like all TV crime dramas the murder has to occur, be investigated and solved all within an hour or two (including commercials) which tends to preclude lengthy examinations of dead ends or his other investigative methods. Frequently Columbo refers to investigative actions that he took off-camera and presumably vetting other possible suspects may come under that category. Also keep in mind that Columbo's killers are not your average drive-by shooting or drug deal gone bad thugs. The story lines, characters and schemes are complex; even when the crime is not premeditated (such as "Any Old Port in a Storm"). The cover-up and resulting untangling is still rather involved (which is why Columbo is a good show). In order to have enough screen time for us to enjoy watching Columbo untangle the plot we have to allow him to focus primarily on one suspect. So we have to sacrifice a little bit of realism to the gods of TV pragmatism. ---B- 22:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Denny Columbo

I've removed the reference to Columbo's full name possibly being "Denny" Columbo -- sounds like a mondegreen to me, as what's clearly being said (abeit quickly) is "Lieutenant" Columbo. Which sort of sounds like Lieu-tenny is said quickly, which is where the misheard Denny comes from... 141.117.210.191 01:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Columbo As a Parole Officer?

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the section on his family, his biography (after the comment about becoming a police officer to make up for his youth), or whether it didn't even belong because it's too speculative. Part of the problem is I forget the episode, but it was one of the last ones, though it could be in others. The comment would go something like this: "It is possible that some of tghe "cousins" which Columbo mentions are actually youth for whom he served as parole officer." The reason for this is because in (one of the last episodes) someone asks how often he sees this cousin he referred to, and Columbo says "Once a month."" Feel free to discuss or add if you thnk it belongs; again, someone who knows the episodes would have to check where.Somebody or his brother 02:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds totally speculative to me. I've seen every episode, most of them many times, and I don't recall even much of a hint that he was ever a parole officer. He wouldn't be a parole officer AND a homicide detective at the same time so it would have had to be something he did before he became a policeman or after he retired. Either way it couldn't be a "present tense" thing. ---B- 05:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I kind of thought one couldn't be both at the same time, but truthfully, I'm nto as familiar with American police and how they handle paroles and stuff; it must be a full-time position then.

Yes, in a big city like Los Angeles it's definitely a full-time position. Perhaps some small-towns might have officers who also do Parole duties, but I'm not sure. ---B- 00:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The Raincoat

OK, this might just be my own "fetish", and I may have been exposed to too many urban legends, so please set me straight... Didn't the prop crew spend a lot of time and effort trying to create the worn-out look? I remember something about having the coat dragged around behind a moving vehicle. I also seem to recall it having been auctioned off for some ridiculous amount of money. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.74.30 (talk) 10:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC) Actually as I understand it the raincoat was actually Peter Falk's own raincoat and was already sort of old and worn. ---B- (talk) 05:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, from what I remember of his autobio (which i don't have to hand) the first raincoat he used was his, afer that it was a prop. And in the pilot episodes, he's considerably smarter than the show proper. Ged UK (talk) 11:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

fame of guest star

"In many, but not all, of the new episodes, the guest villain is relatively unknown to the public and not easily recognized by the audience." - I don't think this is correct. I'm a Brit and some of the guest stars may be less well-known here than there, but most look like well-known actors to me. Some are Brits and more well-known here. 82.69.1.202 (talk) 13:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Name of the first Falk pilot

The first Falk pilot is called "Prescription for Murder" once on this page. All the other times on this page and on List of Columbo episodes it is called "Prescription: Murder". Is the naming of the pilot ambiguous or is the former just wrong? --88.69.214.18 (talk) 10:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's wrong. My DVD box has Prescription: Murder. Ged UK (talk) 13:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

24h format for airing times

People from all over the world edit this page to give the airing times. The 24h format is easier to understand by anybody than the am/pm format. For example many people do not know/understand that 12pm is in fact after 11 am. The 24h format is totally clear for everybody, even English speaking people, and among them, americans.

This is not vandalism. I took time to make this change and I would like it to be respected. Thank you. Chtito (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not your decision to make. English WP respects the conventions of the various nations involved. Since this is an article about a US-produced show, it is to follow US conventions. The same goes for changing US Customary units to metric-first or -only in US-related articles, which you have been doing. It may not be vandalism, but it is disruptive, and against WP guidelines. - BillCJ (talk) 14:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, wikipedia isn't a listings magazine. I don't honestly know why we even have the times listed. We don't even have them for every channel, so it just makes it look sloppy. They are liable to go out of date very quickly, and unless an editor is willing to watch over online listing lists every day for all the channels it shows on, I can't see the point of having them. They don't add anything to the article. Ged (talk) 15:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I had wondered about its necessity too. Seems like a good idea to take them out. Thanks. - BillCJ (talk) 16:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Character

Richard Levinson and William Link undoubtedly conceived the character of Lt. Columbo under the considerable influence of writer Frederick Knott, who created the character of Lt. Hubbard for his play "Dial M for Murder". It should not be overlooked that the course of Inspector Hubbard's investigation, immortalized in Knott's adapatation for Alfred Hickcock 1954 film, artfully utilizes the postmortem reconstruction of the crime that would become in a few short years Columbo's signature (if not his syle) in solving a criminal conundrum for that 1960 episode of the Chevy Mystery Show. —Preceding Frederick Louis Richardson comment added by 65.242.68.36 (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless you have a reliable source for that, it's just Original research i'm afraid. Ged UK (talk) 18:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.travolta.com/image/travolta_r5_c2.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.153.99.48 (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Dog

At the end of Columbo's biography, the author says that Columbo "acquires [his dog] as a companion in the ABC shows." Actually, Columbo's dog is first introduced in the second season of the original NBC series. (Incidentally, it seems pretty far-fetched that the same dog is still alive during the ABC revival--nearly two decades later--but as far as I know, the show never distinguishes the ABC dog from the NBC dog.) Chalkieperfect (talk) 10:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Not only in the second season, but in the very first episode of the second season, 'Etude in Black'. - johandav —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.195.66.98 (talk) 13:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Columbo in popular culture

One point is missed in listing tv shows that gave tribute to Columbo. In the Magnum, PI episode, "A.A.P.I" (Season 7, 1986), Magnum is receiving an award from a private investigators association. There are many pi's there, some deliberately paroding tv detectives. And at one table is a Kojak look-alike sitting with a Columbo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.226.215.18 (talk) 06:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Most of the section is junk really, it needs a heavy pruning. GedUK  12:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I had no idea the character was so popular in Japan, especially in manga. I don't recall the name of the series, but I saw a Columbo type character in one episode of an anime, it was drawn to look exactly like Peter Falk and sounded the same, though in Japanese. Another one, the coat worn by Tyler in "Irresponsible Captain Tyler" is obviously an homage to Columbo, as are some of Tyler's mannerisms, especially acting totally clueless when he really isn't. Bizzybody (talk) 11:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

DVD Releases

Whoever put in the line "Unfortunately, some of the DVD releases are syndicated versions rather than the versions that were originally aired with many interesting scenes simply missing or heavily edited." needs to clarify the statement. Which versions are incomplete and what is your source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.88.120 (talk) 22:07, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

IMDB Shows Season One Episode One as airing on 15 September 1971 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.58.247.127 (talk) 20:39, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

No Picture!?

Come on guys get one up! 122.148.41.172 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:16, 25 June 2011 (UTC).

File:Falk-Columbo.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Sunset Boulevard

The Sunset Boulevard article tells its readers:

The season five premiere of Columbo, titled "Forgotten Lady", also drew heavily from Sunset Boulevard with its storyline of a former star involved in a murder in the midst of a vain attempt at a comeback which her husband, a physician and the murder victim, would not permit because she had a terminal condition that was destroying her memory and would kill her if she continued her attempt at a comeback. This time, the role of the aging diva was played by Janet Leigh.

Can anyone provide a source for this? If so, please do. (NB I'm not watching this [Columbo] talk page.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Columbo whistling aways a song... what song?

I always was wondering what song it is that he whistling...??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DUDI1969 (talk • contribs) 08:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

• All you have to do to answer this question is read the article. (From the article): "In almost every episode of the ABC revival he is heard whistling the children's song "This Old Man". If he does not whistle it, it appears somewhere else, such as in the underscore. Its significance comes from the line "knick knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone" in the lyrics, since Columbo's standard tactic is to gnaw at a case like a dog would to a bone." Fish Man (talk) 15:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Guest stars, murders, victims and miscellaneous guest stars

This section is filled with a very large amount of wp:listcruft. There are no sources or episode numbers listed for any of the actors listed. This information is not encyclopedic, and actors who appeared in only a single episode should not be listed. Additionally, the table is a poor format to use for this section since it is filled with comma-separated data and a narrative paragraph to the right. Sottolacqua (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

This list also falls under Wikipedia:Listcruft#Meaning criteria: 1. The list was created just for the sake of having such a list; 2. The list is of interest to a very limited number of people; 3. The list is a violation of Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information; and 8. The list is unencyclopaedic, i.e. it would not be expected to be included in an encyclopaedia. Sottolacqua (talk) 18:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree.

The following is the list of criteria regarding what constitutes listcruft

• • a) The list was created just for the sake of having such a list
  • b) The list is of interest to a very limited number of people
  • c) The list is a violation of Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information
  • d) The content is unverifiable or the underlying concept is non-notable
  • e) The list cannot be expanded beyond a handful of terms
  • f) The list is unlimited and/or unmaintainable
  • g) The list has no content beyond links to other articles, so would be better implemented as a (self-maintaining) category
  • h) The list is unencyclopaedic, i.e. it would not be expected to be included in an encyclopaedia.
  • i) Determining membership of the list requires adoption of a non-neutral point of view, and reliable sources for avoiding it are not available.
  • j) Determining membership of the list involves original research or synthesis of ideas.
  • k) The list's membership is volatile and requires a disproportionate amount of effort to keep up to date.

IMO: b,c,d,e,f,i,j,k do not apply; so that leaves a,g, and h.

IMO, further, a is debatable since the motives of whoever created the list (years ago and it wasn't me, although I have contributed to it) requires speculation on our parts.

IMO, g is untrue as the overwhelming majority of names included are wikilinked except for a few redlinks pertaining to marginal actors

Finally, h: well, there's the rub, as the Bard would say. That is always subjective and at a minimum some sort of consensus should be required before deleting this entire section. Quis separabit? 18:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The guidelines in Wikipedia:Listcruft do not state all eleven criteria need to be met to be labeled as such by another editor. It's simply a term used to refer to indiscriminate lists of information. Other articles which include lists of guest stars (List of The Simpsons guest stars, List of Alfred Hitchcock Presents guest stars) include the episode number or some referable information related appearances by celebrities. This article contains no sourcing information for the data listed.

Also, the table format looks ridiculous. There's no benefit from listing giant blocks of text in a table like that, and it's difficult to read comma-separated lists rather than bulleted items.

This is subjective reasoning and also comes under WP:IAR. Quis separabit? 19:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Listing actors who appeared in multiple episodes or more than once as either a murderer or victim is entirely appropriate; listing actors who appeared in a single episode is not, and those appearances should be removed from the main article and referenced in List of Columbo episodes if they are not already discussed there. Sottolacqua (talk) 18:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Categorizing "Guest stars, murders, victims and miscellaneous guest stars"

As per The list has no content beyond links to other articles, so would be better implemented as a (self-maintaining) category (above), there is also the possibility of categorizing the actors in question (i.e. Category:Actors who appeared on Columbo, or Category:Columbo), but I don't know how much enthusiasm there is for that. Quis separabit? 19:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Unreferenced statements

The following statements, fact-tagged for +1 years, have been removed. Please do not re-add them without providing the necessary source.

• Falk once stated during an interview on Inside the Actors Studio that he was not truly sure how many relatives Columbo had aside from his wife.
• A spinoff featuring Mrs. Columbo was opposed by series creators Levinson and Link, as well as by Peter Falk. In an interview with Columbo Phile author Mark Dawidziak, published prior to the 1989 Columbo revival, Richard Levinson joked, "If there was ever another Columbo we were going to have him say, 'There's a woman running around pretending to be my wife. She's changing things. She's a young girl. I wish my wife was like that. She's an impostor.'"
• "Nonetheless, a spin-off TV series, Mrs. Columbo starring Kate Mulgrew, was aired in 1979, but it received a dismal reception and was canceled not long after." changed to "Mrs. Columbo, a spin-off TV series starring Kate Mulgrew, aired in 1979, but it was canceled after only thirteen episodes."

Sottolacqua (talk) 18:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Separating character from TV series article

Do any other editors feel sections of this article discussing the development/characterization of the main character should be split into another article titled Columbo (character)? Most of this article discusses the television program, but there are two large sections that discuss the development and storyline of the main character. Sottolacqua (talk) 15:13, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

That crossed my mind as well, I think it would be a sensible split. The development content - i.e. the section headed "Creating the character" - should stay here though in my view, as it in essence concerns development of the TV series as much as the character.Rangoon11 (talk) 16:29, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion is to hold that thought a moment. It seems silly to divide the character from the T show, since there is no character without the TV show- notwithstanding the original play. This article should be slightly rewritten, reviewed a bit more carefully, before someone tries to divide it in two. Doesn't sound practical to me.--Djathinkimacowboy 14:55, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I've done some editing which I hope made the article look a bit more reasonable. I do agree now that the television data should be separated into a separate, closely linked article.

One example of cleaning up: does this article need (under the 'external links') these sections: Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Miniseries (1973–2000), Golden Globe Award for Best Television Series – Drama (1969–1989) and Steven Spielberg filmography? Really? This is too much. I'm removing the Spielberg info. This is about Columbo, not Spielberg's career.--Djathinkimacowboy 16:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

OR and POV

There is no OR here[2], only following the article's own stated protocol that the information is taken from the shows themselves. I won't remove the tag and would appreciate all the help anyone can give. I usually have episode titles to back the statements. No opinion or personal observation POV or original research OR has been added by me. Wanted to correct myself as to one point: of course I have added personal observations whenever appropriate, per the rules that seem to apply to the article. I try to cite the episodes when I can.--Djathinkimacowboy 14:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to delete section

Proposal: Deletion of the "International broadcast" section. Unless we can do it a bit more neatly or a sort of streamlined history, I think this is excessive. An article such as this doesn't need an international broadcasting schedule like that. The section doesn't seem appropriate for Wikipedia, and I refer editors to WP:TRIVIA. My opinion, anyway, and I'd like discussion if anyone would care to take part. If I see no responses here, I will delete the section. Of course I'd like to see it remain if a separate article can be created that is about the television statistics, etc., but I don't really see that happening.--Djathinkimacowboy 16:19, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that details of initial network broadcast, particularly for major markets such as the UK, Germany and Japan, is encyclopedic and useful and actually would like to see ratings info added if possible. However details of the international broadcast of mere repeats - which isn't even provided for the U.S. - seems completely unnecessary and unmaintainable, particualrly in view of the profusion of television channels and regularity of repeats.Rangoon11 (talk) 16:29, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I appreciate that view and I sort of see it that way, I suppose. But I was thinking, this is a massive list, with the countries' flags, taking up a big box with all that space. Why can't this be a simple list? I know Wikipedia sometimes frowns on lists, but I don't think that is the case here, if it were to be changed. It seems to me that it would be nice under its own subsection, only not in the form of a big, illustrated box.--Djathinkimacowboy 19:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Then again, viewing that box and the other lengthy lists, it seems to me it would serve the purpose to simply state Columbo was and remains popular worldwide. With a citation, of course. That entire section has no citation- not a single one. Worse, it has no dates or anything of interest except that it lists the countries and says Columbo was shown in those countries, under the title Columbo. And that article has far too many lists already: the guest villains and other guest stars- many admins have told me Wikipedia is not for lists.--Djathinkimacowboy 19:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I have selected a few articles at random from Category:English-language television series and, from what I have gathered, most articles do not have such a section. My first choice would be to remove it entirely as unsourced triva. However, certain particularly successful television series, such as Doctor Who, have a short section devoted to international viewership, so, as second choice, I'd have no objections to a revamp of the table you mention. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 14:15, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Sal, yes, thank you very much. It also seemed to me the table was really a burdensome space-filler. And I myself haven't yet found authoritative sources for international viewership. There are sources that say it was world-famous, and of course Falk was interviewed and spoke of the way people called him "Columbo" whenever he traveled to foreign climes. The rest, I'd say, is trivia. What I must ask is this: should I streamline it into text if I find a citation, and delete the table? I am AGF from the other editors here on this matter. They seem like good people.--Djathinkimacowboy 17:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Having thought about this a bit more I am willing to lose the table. I would however really like to see some info about original broadcasts in markets such as the UK (eg station, ratings etc). Of course we need to find some sources (that is a general problem with this article though, although the content is almost all factually 'correct' it does need more citations). Rangoon11 (talk) 17:18, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with anything that is brief, well put-together and cited when it comes to TV broadcast history. One thing I think we need to keep out of this article is listing the entire award history just because Columbo won an award. It's information already listed in the article, and entire lists like that are unnecessary.--Djathinkimacowboy 17:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

How major a network is is irrelevant and open to huge argument as to what fits, and leaves us open to accusations of western bias. My view is, if we can't source it, take it out. We can record in prose that the show aired in # countries if necessary, which will shorten the article and not really take out any verifiable information. GedUK  20:28, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

How many times do we list Golden Globes?

Columbo awards are well laid out and available already. Please stop adding the entire Golden Globes listing, which has nothing to do with this article, unless you have some citation or justification for keeping all that there. We don't need that. It is repetitive and silly.--Djathinkimacowboy 17:54, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Disappointing and misleading behaviour. The template was not added - it has been in the article for a very long time and is relevant and appropriate - and you removed it. Its removal has been reverted for good reason. And then you have simply just deleted it again. And again. This is not acceptable behaviour. Rangoon11 (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict):: 1st: I don't care, time length has nothing to do with propriety and you know it. This[3] on the other hand is edit warring as long as you refuse to actually talk about it on the talk page, and you appear to be doing that. I'm not getting into an edit war over this- but you're wrong and that thing is not staying in there. Also, I'd appreciate you not accusing other editors of actions such as 'disappointing', 'misleading' and behaviour that is 'not acceptable'. You're the one not discussing issues when they are raised here. Please see WP:OWN before you make further assumptions of bad faith!--Djathinkimacowboy 17:59, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

'that thing is not staying in there' - that is a clear declaration that you have no interest in the opinions of other editors, or of following proper process and policy. Again highly disappointing. I suggest you rapidly re-think your attitude. I am discussing this, what do you think this is? Rangoon11 (talk) 18:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

You are discussing it now, yes. Not days ago when you were originally asked. I apologise for any untoward behaviour. Keep the list in if you like. Just know that I'm not overjoyed with you, either.--Djathinkimacowboy 18:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

So when exactly was I asked? You did post a message on my Talk page today on a wholly separate issue relating to this article, and I did in fact reply in the thread above this one. As you say on your talk page 'Blessed are those who are flexible; they shall not get bent out of shape.' Perhaps we can now get back to more productive issues.Rangoon11 (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment For what it's worth, I don't understand the huge awards section. Is it really necessary to list every award that the show was nominated for? It seems like this page is getting near overflow of info already... Is this the norm of other television shows/actors and I'm just missing it? Ckruschke (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

More recent TV series have vastly more coverage in WP, with articles for every episode, plus for individual characters e.g. see List of House episodes and the vast amount of linked articles. Coverage of Columbo is actually extremely sparse by comparison, being just this article and a list of episodes article. And yet the main focus here currently seems to be on gutting this article, rather than adding cites and improving it. Since the Columbo character has appeared in a number of different TV productions, and on stage, a separate article for the character seems appropriate, which would immediately reduce this article substantially. A separate article for people who appeared in Columbo also makes sense, and would also reduce this article considerably. That seems a better way of going instead of continually deleting content from here.Rangoon11 (talk) 20:41, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Reply I agree that there are several pages like List of House episodes (I watch/add to several of these like the Bionic Woman/$6M Man, Xena, Hercules, and several of the Star Trek shows), however the intent of my comment was the actual Columbo page and I thus would point to the parent House (TV series) page which while being very informative, is also much more scaled down and cleaner (IMHO). I'm not implying or even saying that the page should be gutted - I'm just asking if there is a better way to skin the cat. My two most recent edits, taking the single-column list of guest stars and turning them into a simple multi-column list, is but one example. I also agree that keeping the different Columbo appearances intact makes sense, but this section is VERY small in comparison to the huge tables on the awards, half as big as the "Guest Contributions" section, and as large as the "Musical Score" section. Just trying to put it all in perspective and it seems like we could all work together to improve the page. Ckruschke (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Reply to Ckruschke (new post): Since we are doing this in this manner... I agree with a lot of what you say, but then you said, 'I also agree that keeping the different Columbo appearances intact makes sense...' and I was wondering which 'Columbo appearances' were ever removed. I didn't remove any. As for the view we are 'gutting' the article: there's gutting and there's clean-up. This article was almost half nonsense. What work I did was to the benefit of the article. Since no one would talk it out here except to complain and make inaccurate statements, well....! And may I add, it is improper to insert posts this way, fellow editors. Take it to the bottom of the discusison thread per the rules, please. I have accomplished that by removing my last two posts on this thread, but please don't shimmy around the correct order of posting on a thread like you have both done. You know better, I know you do.--Djathinkimacowboy 01:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Djathink - I'm not sure what you thought you read in my post, but I was trying to be helpful. I was not saying that anything was deleted or that anyone was gutting the page. I was trying to be a neutral party between you and Rangoon. Also I wasn't inserting or shimmying around anything - I was replying to Rangoon's reply to my original comment - therefore my further indented reply was in the correct place. I was not replying to you so therefore I did not put it at the end of the post (which would have been after your post and therefore would have made zero sense). I'm sorry if you felt slighted, putout, or crossed - this has obviously not been my intent. I also appreciated the Barnstar - so I'm not sure how we got from there to here. I also have some further ideas about how to tighten up the page so I'd like to suggest we focus on the page. Ckruschke (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Ckruschke: I apologise for the confusion!- because I was addressing common problems in my post to you. I should not have done that. None of that was directed at you at all- I saw and appreciate in full what you've tried to do here. Again, I'm sorry about that error in expression. One final word: it is unadvisable to stick in posts willy-nilly no matter what you are addressing. You should know that by now. Anything new goes at the bottom of a thread. As to the rest, I hope no hard feelings. It was really my being disappointed with someone else here- I was addressing issues they raised, and certainly not anything you did.--Djathinkimacowboy 22:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Cool - Maybe its the engineer in me - putting comments at the end of the line that only relate to something in the middle seems... imprecise, but I can play nice too. Ckruschke (talk) 22:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Of course. C., my post was fuzzy and it clearly affected you. I am sorry for that, I never aimed that at you. I think I started to address you and ended up venting at no one in particular, but it shouldn't have happened. Very glad to have you here, it's a breath of fresh air and a fresh pair of eyes.--Djathinkimacowboy 22:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Splitting the article

The television series and character Columbo has been round since the late 1960s. We have heavy data even when streamlined, about both the character and the history of the series. Added to that we have international status of this program/character. Do we divide the article in half? Secondly, what should be considered WP:TRIVIA to the subject?--Djathinkimacowboy 15:06, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I think a lot depends on where you make the split. I personally think the biography section is too long, and even leads with the fact it's cobbled together from snippets from different episodes.

The awards section is rather overpowering, but I'm not sure that there's enough to split into another article. A collapsible table would probably do the trick.

Guest stars, both murderers, victims and others would probably work quite well, and would give us space to expand a little and make it more readable.

Pulling the broadcast and DVD sections together, or at least consecutive, would help the flow and perhaps ease the information's presentation by helping people skip over a section that they may not be interested in. I could also see a case for taking all the broadcast and DVD etc release info and moving it to List of Columbo episodes.

For me, trivia is where the character's been referenced in other shows in a minor way (a walk-on, reference etc); is Columbo's appearance or reference integral to a notable episode of a notable show (or whatever). We got overloaded with crap in the past, and most of it was just rubbish. GedUK  20:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Cheers a lot, Ged UK. I agree with you right down the line. It also troubles me that Columbo's character and the M.O. of the character has to be cobbled together with information lifted from the episodes, but then I kind of see that as a 'forced source'. Aside from perhaps one or two books, where else would we get a comprehensive character biography? However, I think that biography should be pared down- feel guilty since I added to it, but I did try streamlining the article and was accused of 'gutting' it. I wonder if this will work. Other than reverting me, there is one other editor here who does fine work, then there's me doing what little I can....--Djathinkimacowboy 12:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal: You know, we have List of Columbo episodes already- why not move most of the data about the COLUMBO EPISODES to the article where it belongs? I'll have to double-check but is this article even mentioned here in the main Columbo article?? It should be more prominent and if we move some of this data, it will have to be more prominent, like maybe up in the lead. ("For information about the series and its data, see List of Columbo episodes.") This thing needs some attention and work. This is so disorganised.--Djathinkimacowboy 16:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

That article already does have the information about the individual episodes, what else do you propose moving there?Rangoon11 (talk) 16:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Rangoon11, you can read. I propose moving to that article all the data that belongs in that article that is presently here. If the data is repetitive, I propose to remove it from here. I don't appreciate your edits and Salvio has advised you about participating on this talk page. You are starting to look like you are edit warring[4], [5]. Please prove me wrong.--Djathinkimacowboy 20:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Frankly after reading all of the dross which you have been posting about me behind my back on the Talk page of Salvio giuliano, and the comments which you have posted there in the past few hours, and the way in which you have selectively copied my comments on that Talk page below, I no longer feel discussing anything with you particularly constructive.

To address the point in question 'I propose moving to that article all the data that belongs in that article that is presently here.' is so vague to me as be meaningless. Please be clearer.Rangoon11 (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Rangoon, I'll overlook that... because we've basically frazzled each other's nerves. It's not surprising your trying to find a way not to respond here at all. It should not have come to this. Frankly, you are not helping as much as I was hoping you'd have done. You began by trying to shunt me to the talk page here, but you wouldn't talk. Then you responded by making accusations here and in edit summaries- and you've been warned about both activities, but I understand how you feel. Not too long ago I was doing the same things. If you're serious, let's actually fix this and cooperate. If you have problems, discuss them on the talk page, start a new thread, you can even yell at me on my talk page. Just do something more, something positive!--Djathinkimacowboy 22:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Some Suggestions 1) The separate page List of Columbo episodes already contains the whole table with the DVD releases. This should be deleted from the main page. 2) Throw the second table, "Broadcast History", on that "List" page as well. 3) The DVD Table in "Home Video Release" section seems to be an almost direct duplication of the DVD release info on the table I reference in the #1 above. One of the two tables should be deleted. 4) Since the awards section is so large, why don't we simply create another page, entitled "List of Columbo awards" or something, cut and paste the whole section and then colaborrate on a short lead to this new page so that it's more than just a stub. I think that all 4 of those suggestions would slim the page down nicely enough to make Djathink happy while retaining all the great content that Rangoon has put his time into. What ya think? Ckruschke (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

C., I am in agreement 100%, as long as we drop repetitive stuff and move what needs to be moved. I'm not sure Wikipedia will tolerate a new article for Columbo awards since that can be streamlined into a simple paragraph and set inline. Other than that, I agree with you. I've been trying to examine the DVD release info to see what needs to be deleted. I want to be careful so I don't delete anyone else's hard work.--Djathinkimacowboy 22:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I can broadly support that, with a few caveats. 1. I support moving the whole 'Home video release' section to the 'List of Columbo episodes' article (or perhaps keeping the section but collapsing the table in the section). 2. I do feel quite strongly that the first table in the 'Seasons and episodes' section should stay as a useful summary of the series and dates etc, however it should be combined with the table currently below it (the 'Broadcast history' table), and the DVD release info should be removed. 3. The awards table has now been collapsed and I therefore see far less reason to move it to a separate article as in the collapsed form it takes up only one line. I'm not completely against the idea, but don't see it as making much difference to this article. 4. I still think that a separate article for the character of Columbo would be helpful, the character has appeared in a play and a number of different TV series played by different actors. In my view this article should just be about the series with Falk in the lead.Rangoon11 (talk) 22:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)What if we cut the following from here and paste it at List of Columbo episodes: 'Home video release' and 'Awards'? We can then just insert the link to the Episodes as a reference. I think the other stuff is very informative and should remain. I think the character biography can be slimmed down a little bit, and so can the lead. We do not need a separate article for the character- this article is for the character. We don't have enough on him anyway, what's there is just 'purple prose'. Thoughts?--Djathinkimacowboy 23:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment for clarification: I want to clarify, it looks like we're in a sort of agreement. I agree the other stuff aside from DVD releases and awards should stay- maybe we can collapse those, I find them useful and helpful. The only point of disagreement we might have is I do not think a new article about the character should be created. If another article is about the character, and we have List of Columbo episodes, then what is this article supposed to be about? Just the series?- I can't agree with that.--Djathinkimacowboy 23:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Rangoon, I read your post (it's very good) and I noticed you just added to it- no problem. What I wanted is to encourage you to just post something new. It's hard to see what you're thinking if you just continually update one post.--Djathinkimacowboy 00:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually I think splitting off the character of Columbo into a new Wiki page is a good idea. Yes, there is a separate page of "List of Columbo episodes", but this is very, very common when it comes to television programs - the parent is where you go to look about info on the show as a whole and then you can follow links to specific facets of the show - the Lost (TV series) page is a perfect example of this in which certain facets of the show were split off into separate Wiki pages as they got more and more verbose while the page retains all the links and a short summaries of what are on all those pages. Or did I miss your point Djathink? Ckruschke (talk) 18:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Yes, good point. Seeing that as an example, I can see the merit of having a character page - more pictures and some better sections than we have here, yes, I can envision that. I suppose there's no danger of someone coming along later and saying we ought to merge the character page back where it was.... Only thing I wonder is, wouldn't we have more of a stub than an article? Look at it from the perspective if this article here had only the character bio- which is what we're kind of suggesting with a separate character article- would it be enough?--Djathinkimacowboy 18:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Splitting the article - section break

In giving this more thought, it seems to me we should think about some things:

1. Columbo should not have a separate character bio or profile article. This article, if it lost Columbo's biography AND we moved the television data, would be a bare cupboard. It doesn't seem productive to split it 3 ways for no reason.

2. This article is supposed to be generally 'about the television series'. The series was mostly about the character, so we cannot separate the two things. People coming to this article would be put out, having to link to another article about 'Columbo, the man'.

3. The data about Columbo the character should be pared down, a LOT. I can see the value of having a section addressing his car, but not a section about the dog. This is about Columbo, not the dog. It is enough if we say, "Columbo had a Bassett Hound." That section looks silly.

4. We must be careful and bear in mind that the series itself seems to be our main (only?) reference source. In the past editors including me have 'geeked out' too much about Columbo. We need to be careful of that.

If no objection, I'll try to streamline the article a little. I will not be moving anything. That's all I can think of now ... please comment.--Djathinkimacowboy 13:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Comments

1. - I'm fine either way. I don't worry about this page becoming a stub, but I can see your point.
2. - Again, I'm fine with that. I don't see this as an issue, since one would come to this page read about the show and then decide to click the link about more info on specifically the character "Columbo", but either works for me.
3. - Again I agree in principle. However, your specific point about the dog is pretty negligible - it's 3 sentences and if it were to be completely deleted wouldn't affect the overall size of the Bio one bit. However, some of the trivia content needs to go. One problem that we do have is that 90% of the information is not cited so an independent "Wiki Policeman"-type editor could come in and start chopping because most of the info is not referenced. I think that there is fat to cut, but my suggestion would be take each of the sections one at a time and cooperately work out edits/additions/references to tighten up the whole page.
4. - Agree (see above)

So that we can all give our okey-dokey, I would suggest putting in a small "this is what I'm going to do" comment in the Talk section. IMHO, this can work to head of any future disagreements. I think if you, I, and Rangoon11 (and GedUK  plus any other joiners) work together, we can really improve the page. Ckruschke (talk) 18:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

I noticed that there is a huge change right now, many contents are removed and many are added. But someone pl combine Seasons and episodes & Home video release. too much repetation.B3430715 (talk) 09:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's one of the topics of the thread above. Ckruschke (talk) 18:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

OK, I'm in agreement thus far ... and I hope I made it clear, I would do a little and nothing major. My edits so far haven't been minor, but they're darned close. One issue I would raise is this article could do with a simple list of episodes and corresponding data, nothing more. I think awards etc. belong at the List of Columbo episodes but I am not going to do the heavy lifting. I know I'll mess it up. We need help- but will we get it? Even Rangoon so far hasn't done anything to which he agreed some time ago; I'm not holding anything against him, just saying I think no one's going to initiate the heavy work.--Djathinkimacowboy 19:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Your point about the character bio is excellent- I want to add my support for really cleaning up that whole thing and maybe getting it down to half its size. I think we can do a couple of lines about his style of investigation and leave it at that- now there is a whole subsection and it really doesn't deserve that. I think viewers are interested to read about his family, background, and the car is of some interest but I agree this needs to be cut in half.

As to the data about guest stars and contributors, etc.- it seems we should keep that but move it to the episodes list article. Later we can see how to trim back the article page, but I have to say I am fond of that article and think it should remain as-is.--Djathinkimacowboy 19:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Columbo in its turn in Monday Night Mysteries was broadcast on NBC- obviously on Monday nights- so I am removing this broadcast history until someone finds a better way to present it AND a citation. For now it is among the WP:UNDUE/WP:TRIVIA that we need to remove.--Djathinkimacowboy 20:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Although I agree with reviewing the Bio and cutting where appropriate, we need to be careful about cutting to a size goal. Although some of it is trivial minutia, obviously alot of time has been put in to the material and we need to review it in as neutral manner as possible. If at the end of the day only two sentences are removed, then so be it, but the goal shouldn't be cutting for cutting's sake.

To your previous point, If you could restate what we've already agreed to, I can do the changes. This has gotten awfully long and with threads and answers being moved and edited, I've gotten lost... Ckruschke (talk) 20:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

e/c All that is happening with this article at present is that large amounts of uncited (but factually correct, uncontentious and longstanding) content is continuing to be deleted. I oppose the the bulk removal of the content about the Dog, and the removal of the useful and relevant Broadcast history table. Djathinkimacowboy makes it pretty clear that their intention is to delete as much of this article as possible - whilst adding not a single new citation - and I am strongly opposed to that approach. Rangoon11 (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, a section break per Wikipedia rules simply allows us to continue the thread and edit and comment more easily- nothing has been "moved". Now I wish to quote and answer with clarity. First is Ckruschke:

Although I agree with reviewing the Bio and cutting where appropriate, we need to be careful about cutting to a size goal. Although some of it is trivial minutia, obviously alot of time has been put in to the material and we need to review it in as neutral manner as possible. If at the end of the day only two sentences are removed, then so be it, but the goal shouldn't be cutting for cutting's sake.

Yes, it is exactly what I have been proposing so we're agreed. I never advocated a slash-and-burn attitude toward this- and it does contain lots of interesting detail.

C., to restate about what we've discussed, it seems any data related strictly to television issues should go to List of Columbo episodes. Later that article can be streamlined- I can help with some of that.

Now Rangoon:

All that is happening with this article at present is that large amounts of uncited (but factually correct, uncontentious and longstanding) content is continuing to be deleted. I oppose the the bulk removal of the content about the Dog, and the removal of the useful and relevant Broadcast history table. Djathinkimacowboy makes it pretty clear that their intention is to delete as much of this article as possible - whilst adding not a single new citation - and I am strongly opposed to that approach.

Yes, amounts- not large- of material are being deleted, per Wikipedia policy and you know that. You can clearly see the diffs and edit summaries for everything I have done. Time makes no difference if material is inappropriate, excessive, repetitive or undue weight being given to trivia. You can oppose the removal of the data about Dog, but other than just putting it back, how do you propose we fix this article if nothing is ever to be removed?

R., I removed that table because it is uncited, it is bulky and it isn't necessary. As I have said, anyone coming back with a citation and streamlined material can put it back in- but we hardly need a big table with that info. Finally, I'm afraid you're wrong in saying all I want to do is cut this article and add nothing further. You are clearly not studying what we have discussed here and what we're trying to do to make this a more user-friendly and informative article. You need to understand what an encyclopedic entry is.--Djathinkimacowboy 01:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

As ever, your focus is purely on removing content.

You say 'it seems any data related strictly to television issues should go to List of Columbo episodes. Later that article can be streamlined'. That is (1) unclear and (2) in no way agreed.

We are going round in circles on this Talk page. Rangoon11 (talk) 12:45, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Djathink - I actually agree with Rangoon on the table. It was not discussed that we should ditch it (unless I fell asleep somewhere) and therefore no major changes should have been made w/o at least discussing it here. That was the implied agreement - right? I have therefore reverted this and put in a tag that the table needs citation. If no one can come up with corroborating references to the info, it can rightfully be deleted per Wiki reference rules. Also if the info is incorrect, per your deletion note, then we can also work on making it so.

Rangoon - While I agree that this current discussion has gotten to be quite long, I actually thought we were getting somewhere. We have discussed possible fixes and outlined what COULD be done to remove some of the original research and minutia. I was going to suggest that we went through the Bio a section/para at a time and highlight the parts that should stay and parts that should go. After we have narrowed it down to specific bits, we discuss the validity of each sentence or sentences. None of this should be willy nilly and although Djathink frequently remarks that the article needs to be slimmed down, I can also see many sentences that appear to be fluff inserted by anonymous editors. This process isn't easy, but I'm not willing to give up yet as I think the three of us can still work through this. Ckruschke (talk) 15:37, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

I made my reasons perfectly clear for the removal of that table under Wikipedia rules. I do not like to go this route but I must insist you stop and consider edit warring if you will simply revert something because I didn't come here asking permission first. C., no one has ever been able to approach this article with acceptable citations and it is a miracle we get to use the original series as a reference.

Now that you've spoken up about that blasted, silly-looking table, I won't get into an edit war or a violation of 3RR- but I think you guys both need to bone up a little on what it is I'm doing instead of crying that too much is being deleted. As for Rangoon, I thought you and I were in agreement on most issues, as you told an admin a couple of weeks ago.

C., you said you saw "fluff" in the article inserted by anon. editors. Though I am not arguing about this, I just can't see what you mean. I myself admitted and I admit again, I have added details to the article, seeing that it was in the spirit in which the article was written.

You make a sound point, we are making progress here and I think we all need to step back and consider whether we are falling into a WP:OWN pattern of doing things.--Djathinkimacowboy 16:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Rangoon, one last thing: we won't go in circles here if you'll quit taking us in circles like you have been doing. All you do is fight almost every suggestion that is made. C., one last thing: I hope I did not misunderstand you, but you seem to be complaining about the length of discussions here. Am I wrong? If you are complaining, you should note that discussions take as long as they take. If anyone gets tired of discussion, then take a break. That is what I do.--Djathinkimacowboy 16:33, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Djathink - I honestly don't understand your stances or your lightning fast turnarounds and out-of-the-blue attacks. You state that you want to work together to improve the article. You state in agreement that we should discuss things before making any changes. Then you delete a table (although I agree it was 100% on justifiable grounds) and when I rightly point out that you did it w/o discussing it on Talk, you attack me, accuse me of WP:Edit warring (which no third-party editor would agree with since I was simply following the discuss part of the WP:BRD cycle), then get your back up and suggest that I "bone up" and "quit crying that too much is being deleted" which is pretty ironic considering how thin skinned you are and repeatedly jump to the wrong conclusion regarding my innocent comments (such as talking about the length of this discussion). Finally, when I said I thought "we were in agreement on most issues", I didn't mean I was going to blindly support whatever you wanted to do.

My intention all along has been to honestly try and improve this page and the edit process by bringing in a tone of WP:Civility between you and Rangoon. I am taking my own time to try and do this. But I'm tired of being WP:Shot At and all the WP:Drama that has been inserted into these discussions. So in the immortal words of Han Solo, "No reward is worth this" and I think I'll just throw in the flag and move on to other things. Sorry I couldn't help more... Cheers - Ckruschke (talk) 17:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Ckruschke, as usual some of those remarks were not necessarily directed at you- some are aimed at P and some just venting- but I do stand by what I said to you. But you know what really tires me? False accusations of personal attacks etc. You should not have complained that the discussion is too long; that does not help.

Please stop accusing me of "attacking" you whenever I suggest something or make statements. The truth is not an attack, so please ... stop trying to make this into an personal attack issue, which it is not.

If you had a problem with that table, well, it's back and I don't see what the point is in being so thin-skinned yourself! Nor did I ask you to blindly agree with me- and THAT is a personal attack, which I think you do more often than you are aware.

It is very unfortunate you choose to simply storm off instead of cool off- because you can't take the general solid criticism regarding the article's needs.

I do sincerely apologise if you felt attacked, but then again, that is your imagination. The discussion is here for all to see. I for one am sorry to see you go- but you go if you must. Me, too: I am through with this article because frankly, I'm tired of you and P. finger-pointing and then accusing me of all manner of weird stuff.--Djathinkimacowboy 21:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

what? i mean combining this two tables:

DVD name	Ep#	Release dates
		Region 1	Region 2	Region 4
The Complete First Season	9	September 7, 2004	September 13, 2004	December 3, 2004
The Complete Second Season	8	March 8, 2005	July 18, 2005	July 13, 2005
The Complete Third Season	8	August 9, 2005	November 14, 2005	July 20, 2006
The Complete Fourth Season	6	March 14, 2006	September 18, 2006	September 19, 2006
The Complete Fifth Season	6	June 27, 2006	February 12, 2007	Unknown 2007
The Complete Sixth & Seventh Seasons	8	November 21, 2006	April 30, 2007	May 2, 2007
The Mystery Movie Collection 1989 (R1/R4) The Complete Eighth Season (R2)	5 4	April 24, 2007	March 31, 2008	June 4, 2008
The Mystery Movie Collection 1990 (R1) The Complete Ninth Season (R2/R4)	6	February 3, 2009	March 30, 2009	May 6, 2009
The Tenth Season – Volume 1 (R2) The Tenth Season – Volume 2 (R2)	8 6	N/A	June 15, 2009 July 27, 2009	July 28, 2009 November 10, 2009
The Mystery Movie Collection 1991–1993 (R1)	6	February 8, 2011	N/A	N/A
The Mystery Movie Collection 1994–2003 (R1)	7	January 10, 2012	N/A	N/A
Columbo: The Complete Series	69	N/A	October 19, 2009	N/A

Season		Episodes	Originally aired	DVD Release
				Region 1	Region 2	Region 4
	Pilots	2	1968–1971	September 7, 2004	September 13, 2004	December 3, 2004
	1	7	1971–1972
	2	8	1972–1973	March 8, 2005	July 18, 2005	July 13, 2005
	3	8	1973–1974	August 9, 2005	November 14, 2005	July 20, 2006
	4	6	1974–1975	March 14, 2006	September 18, 2006	September 19, 2006
	5	6	1975–1976	June 27, 2006	February 12, 2007	Unknown 2007
	6	3	1976–1977	November 21, 2006	April 30, 2007	May 2, 2007
	7	5	1977–1978
	8	4	1989	April 24, 2007	March 31, 2008	June 4, 2008
	9	6	1989–1990	February 3, 2009	March 30, 2009	May 6, 2009
	Season 10 and special episodes	14	1990–1993 1994–2003	February 8, 2011 January 10, 2012	June 15, 2009 July 27, 2009	2009

B3430715 (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

this is an article

hello everyone, good to see people gathering up editing an article. But look what I have noticed:

1. This article contains too many self study -- go to a columbo fan site if you want to put your own feeling/options
2. This article has no color images -- again, non free image such as the dvd cover licensing can be used
3. This article has bunch of words and not being spaced properly -- put out some white, learn how to use the format functions
4. Where the hell is the "international" section? it was there before! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.187.134 (talk) 23:00, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome to help and work over the article to improve it of course. It was decided before that no international table was necessary here. It was ridiculous.—Djathinkimacowboy 17:00, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Catchphrases

If a catchphrase could mean a short phrase or expression which has gained usage beyond its initial scope.
Than "my wife" shall be a trademark slogan of Columbo, because:

1. he says it all the time
2. he says it for the purpose of his investigation

right or wrong? agree or disagree? B3430715 (talk) 07:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

He does mention "my wife" or "Mrs. Columbo" a lot, I don't have a problem with including it in the catchphrases list. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 09:55, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

The trouble is "My wife" is not a catchphrase at all. It certainly is not a Columbo catchphrase. His mentioning his wife a lot doesn't make "my wife" his catchphrase. Shouldn't be in there, and I believe it should be deleted.—Djathinkimacowboy 16:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Or do you think we should also have, 'the wife', 'my wife always ... ', 'I was tellin' the wife'? Because it amounts to the same thing. It is a silly argument.—Djathinkimacowboy 17:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

You are correct in that despite how often he says something related to his wife, the structure of the delivery is so varied as to not really qualify as a distinct catchphrase. I won't outright protest some form of it being included, but you make a valid point that should be considered. Perhaps it should be removed for the time being. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 18:19, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

dont you see there's "my wife..." in the examples you'd given: 'the wife', 'my wife always ... ', 'I was tellin' the wife'?

the rest 2 examples aint a phrase columbo says to start a conversation! and for most of the time, he would never call his wife "the"

the chance of saying "my wife..." is way higher than "just one more thing" B3430715 (talk) 18:39, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Clearly you are not wanting to understand. "My wife" is not a catchphrase, partly because of those others I mentioned. You are simply not understanding this issue. The 'chance' of him saying it does not make it a catchphrase when it's ONE WORD.—Djathinkimacowboy 19:23, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey fox, hope this helps; To my understanding, Catch Phrase is just something that can catch you ear (an opening statement)Detectiveboy (talk) 23:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I am not FoxCE but I don't think that helps. It's a fine link, even a good reference I suppose, but since it is not about Columbo .... The argument here was about whether 'the wife' is a Columbo catchphrase. Well, it is just about every married man's catchphrase as far as I know ... on both sides of the pond and in other English-speaking nations too. Perhaps I am in error here, but "the wife" is not a catchphrase of Columbo's, not at all.—Djathinkimacowboy 00:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

HEY, IT IS "my wife..." NOT 'the wife', I never ever mentioned 'the wife' beforeB3430715 (talk) 05:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

You did not mention it, but Columbo says it all the time: "the wife". What is the matter with you? And please do not address other editors by starting out with 'HEY'.—Djathinkimacowboy 06:02, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

guys, I'm not 100% sure whether "my wife..." is a catchphrase or not. But I'm more willing to have it there since it is being so remarkable ( I can only remember 2 Columbo slogan, "my wife..." & "just one more thing"). - Detectiveboy (talk) 06:34, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

It is not a catchphrase. Therefore it does not belong. I do not care what you think you heard, that is POV.—Djathinkimacowboy 04:18, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Article WP:No_original_research problem

According to this, I assume that we shall remove some "guesses" from the article（especially his Bio）or add some references. I remember the article even mentioned that Mrs Columbo's name is Ross (I'm not sure if it's still there)...but that's for sure an original research. Detectiveboy (talk) 00:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

There are no 'guesses' in this article, but it does need some streamlining. Editing is always encouraged. From what I can see in your posts, you want to start placing POV, WP:UNDUE and WP:TRIVIA and those things will be edited out sooner or later. They were removed before and will be removed again. Right now, there is no violation of OR because it has been allowed that we use the shows themselves as primary reference. That does not mean you can just come and put in anything you want or you think you may have heard. You must reference the episode that reveals the information before you put it in the article. And there is no mention of the wife's name, ever, anywhere.—Djathinkimacowboy 04:24, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure:

Columbo always mentions his wife. During the first few seasons of the series it was widely believed in Hollywood that Columbo actually had no wife. However, in "A Stitch in Crime" (1972) Columbo tells only his fellow officers, when he first arrives on the scene, that his wife has some kind of flu. He explains he had been up all night caring for her, and also has the flu as a result. Clearly from the start, Columbo certainly had a real wife whom everyone knew. In the episode "Troubled Waters" (1975) other characters describe meeting and speaking to Mrs. Columbo, although she remains unseen.

Detectiveboy (talk) 17:00, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear. Detectiveboy, THAT is not an example of a "guess". That is taken from a scene in the film. You really do not know what you are on about, and you must have a basic knowledge of the subject in order to be able to edit it. I don't think you have any basic knowledge of Columbo.—Djathinkimacowboy 19:38, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

you sure about this?:

'Clearly from the start, Columbo certainly had a real wife whom everyone knew.' --Detectiveboy (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I do not need to be sure. It is a fact as gleaned from the films. And this is the last time I reply to your wikihounding.—Djathinkimacowboy 21:01, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

The idea is right, but the tone, seems like an argument in an essay. --Detectiveboy (talk) 05:17, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Inline writing style, facts

Work is being done to rewrite some of the inline text, to streamline and wikify. The essay-styled writing will be eliminated as much as possible, but it is necessary to consult and to have consensus about what will remain in the article.—Djathinkimacowboy 21:05, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Plans for Columbo--and beyond

In case no one is clear, Rangoon11 and I have been working harder than anybody to improve the article. Mediation broke down, but not because of us, so we are still developing ideas and improvements. Rangoon11 has limited time like me. What we are planning to address here is:

1. Insertion of a simple data table for Columbo. (The table is done and may be in there, I'm not sure, but Rangoon will be putting it in if it isn't there yet.)
2. What to do with the DVD release information.
3. Streamlining the paragraphs and sections.
4. Whether to create a separate article purely about the Columbo character, which we are still debating because we do not agree about it yet.
5. What has been removed from this article has been done by consensus and will be removed if it is reinserted without proper discussion on the talk page.
6. There are admins who are occasionally checking on this article and helping also.

I hope that answers all questions. Editors are always welcome to come and help, but we need people who know about Columbo, can operate at a proper English language level, and will not disrupt the work. Those are basic WP rules.—Djathinkimacowboy 19:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I would like to add my support to the above post. Rangoon11 (talk) 19:54, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Good with me :) GedUK  10:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Careful with copying other web sites' contents and proper citation method

There is also a problem I notice and it must stop. Several websites that are excellent verifiable sources were simply being copied in the past into this WP article. Here are a few of them:

1. http://www.museum.tv/eotvsection.php?entrycode=columbo
2. http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/nonames.asp
3. http://www.legendarytv.com/columbo/columbo_first_name.asp
4. http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/television/drama/columbo.htm
5. http://www.aasa.org/SchoolAdministratorArticle.aspx?id=14156 (this is an excellent resource)
6. http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110630/opinion/Lt-Columbo-s-bowl-of-chilli.373122
7. http://www.info-facts.com/columbo.htm (this one troubles me a lot, as I can't tell if they copied WP or if a WP editor copied this site)
8. http://www.samefacts.com/2011/06/popular-culture/lt-columbo-class-warrior/

Let's use more style discretion and proper citing style in the future!—Djathinkimacowboy 03:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

7 feels like they copied WP, WP was updated/changed, and they didn't update theirs, then some of the stuff on there was put back in here. GedUK  10:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Quite so. That is why good, airtight editing is the order of the day. Our Columbo article should outdo them all!—Djathinkimacowboy 16:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

7. is a classic case of how WP's great readership and influence can actually make it harder for those editing WP to be accurate. I agree absolutely that we should strive to be 100% accurate and should be careful to consult mutliple sources when in any doubt. Rangoon11 (talk) 23:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Lead image: WP:COPYVIO problem

That new colour Columbo image is going off until we know there is no copyvio danger there.—Djathinkimacowboy 17:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

The image does have the proper non-free use rationale, and thus can be said to qualify for fair limited use on this article only. Per the relevant guideline at WikiProject Television, a DVD cover may be used in the infobox, although a screenshot of the title card or promotional poster is preferable (for style, not copyright reasons). To my knowledge, Columbo never really had an official title sequence per se, but the word "Columbo" was usually screened at the beginning of each episode. I will browse my collection for such a screenshot, but lacking that, the DVD cover is more style-appropriate for the infobox than the Kiley/Falk screenshot. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 18:13, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

yea, go ahead...i'm sure it's ok....remember to put it back B3430715 (talk) 18:41, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Fox, I think that based on what you say, we should put the colour image back from the DVD box.—Djathinkimacowboy 19:25, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

By the way, he did have a screenshot: it was a sort of sunset shot out the California desert, but was shown at the end, not the beginning. The beginning was the start of the film itself, with 'PETER FALK', then 'AS', then 'COLUMBO'. That 'COLUMBO' is what fans recognise. It would be divine if we could use one of Falk's self-portraits as Columbo ... might there be one?—Djathinkimacowboy 19:28, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with either case, but can you people please make it so I can tell that Columbo is in Color instead of something black&white? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Detectiveboy (talk • contribs) 23:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

It's always possible that you could do it. —Djathinkimacowboy 00:25, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of using a DVD cover (save all the troubles). What I really concerned is, can we have a pic of the dog? Detectiveboy (talk) 06:48, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

For the time being I think we can agree to use the DVD cover. If anyone finds a nice screenshot of the intertitles we can consider using that as well. As for Dog, feel free to upload an image with the proper non-free use rationale and we can include that as well. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 07:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

It was agreed sometime back: NO dog! People were complaining about the WP:TRIVIA overload and now I see a new user, Detectiveboy, is here asking for all that old stuff back. It won't stay if anyone puts it in unless we have consensus for it. We already had a consensus to leave it out.—Djathinkimacowboy 18:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

We do have a consensus? Detectiveboy (talk) 00:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Read the posts and if you are not convinced you may ask Rangoon11. Meanwhile, if you put in dog's pictures, they will be removed. The dog is strictly WP:UNDUE and WP:TRIVIA but I have the feeling you already know that.—Djathinkimacowboy 04:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Detectiveboy, we can discuss this later (after Djathinkimacowboy & Rangoon11 finished simplifying the article).B3430715 (talk) 20:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Propositions #2, #3: Removal of "Career" and "Family" sections, and dropping of separate "Generations" sections

... which is all pretty self-explanatory. Ideas, anyone? We either need citations as accepted in the article or we need to drop these sections. Prop. 3: I also propose merging the 'generations' of the character into one section without loss of present inline text. We only need to state who played Columbo in chronological order and don't require special sections for each 'generation'. If there are no registered objections I will make the edits.—Djathinkimacowboy 00:56, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

In place of the "Family" and "Career" sections, how about this simple text (with good citations added):

'It is indicated in many of the films that Columbo is originally from New York, served on the New York Police Department, and moved to California at the urging of his relatives. He explains several times that he has worked very hard to reach his present rank; he clearly states that he loves his work. He mentions having been in the Korean War (By the Dawn's Early Light).

While Columbo mentions his wife and children, nieces, nephews, siblings and cousins, it is unknown what extent of family Columbo actually has. He often ruminates about his father and grandfather. His only mention of his mother was that she was often at the hospital giving birth.'

What does everyone think?—Djathinkimacowboy 01:01, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Happy to lose the 'generations' sub headings which are in any case artifical and rather misleading. In my view the 'Career' and 'Family' sections should stay, but citations should certainly be added and I accept that there is probably room for some trimming here and there. I have said before, and I still think that this is valid, that a separate article on the character would enable this article to be more focused. We should remember that although the Falk TV series is what the character is famous for, the character has also appeared in a play and in non-Falk TV productions. Rangoon11 (talk) 23:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I do not think we have enough to cite the career and family sections. They can be done in one paragraph each. I do not want to discuss the special character article right now - I want to get this article in good shape first. As you know, I disagree about a character article because we have insufficient sources to cite, and it is simply too much. Recall the other editor who wanted a special Columbo article with all the material we rejected. WP doesn't want that. Actually, Rangoon, I don't see what the other actors' portrayals have to do with any of this.—Djathinkimacowboy 00:05, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The relevance of the play and the other actors' TV portrayals is that a Columbo character article would allow this article to become focused on the Falk TV series, and that it means that the character is not inseperable from that topic e.g. it existed before the Falk portrayal (although the Falk portrayal is much the most famous, and (particularly the 1970s productions) most artistically significant. For me that is a very clear and notable topic in and of itself which deserves a focused and high quality WP treatment. Rangoon11 (talk) 00:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Having said that am quite happy to park the idea of a separate article for now, and focus on this one. That does mean that I favour keeping these sections though, although I would support some streamlining. Rangoon11 (talk) 00:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You're right Rangoon. My only concern is whether we have enough verifiable sources. Otherwise we'd have nothing more than a stub. But in general your thoughts seems good to me - and I will support you in the Columbo character article when the time comes. If it is an acceptable project, I hope I can help with that.—Djathinkimacowboy 00:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, I agree streamlining 'Career' and 'Family' sections will do nicely. They're too much like an essay, that's all the problem is - they want rewriting.—Djathinkimacowboy 00:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I honestly never saw much point to the family section, as we never see them, and only ever hear about them in passing. A lot of what gets put in is simply to allow the reader to infer a load of stuff, which may or may not be 'true', but is almost certainly not relevant. As Columbo is a primary source about his own family, we have to be careful about adding it, as there's a strong argument that everything he says is simply for effect to get onto the witness/suspect's good side. comment readded and signed this time! GedUK  12:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

GedUK, whilst I understand what you mean and I agree about really streamlining the sections, there are no guesses or POV as you suggest. All that data has been gleaned from the episodes, directly from what the characters say. Some are even quoted directly, so that is not a valid opposition argument. You seem to think we just made it all up!—Djathinkimacowboy 03:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

Proposal: make 'Actors who played Columbo' into the first sub section of the 'Contributors' section, taking the necessary content from the 'Development' section (which would stay but as a shorter section). Thoughts and comments are welcome. Rangoon11 (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose: That data - who has played Columbo - does NOT belong in contributors. Contributors should be distinct from the actors who played Columbo.—Djathinkimacowboy 03:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)