Talk:Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada

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Proportionally equivalent number of US citizens[edit]

I have removed a statement from this page to the effect that 981 Israeli deaths was proportionately equivalent to 40000 deaths in the US because:

  1. The numbers don't add up. 981 of ~28.75 million Israeli citizens is one in 29306. The US population being ~303 million, this gives a proportional equivalent of 10680.
  2. No corresponding statement was made for Palestinian deaths.
  3. The comparison with US population is not especially relevant or enlightening.

- TB (talk) 07:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Israel's population is 7.7 million. I am not sure where you got the number 28.75 million. However, comparison with the US is meant to provide an illustration of the fact that 1000+ deaths in Israel is more impactful to its society than, say, a country of much larger size. Israel is a very small country, so more people are affected by this number of deaths. --96.60.171.236 (talk) 18:19, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most odd, I could swear I read the 28.75 from the demographics section of Israel this morning; 981 * 303 / 7.7 is indeed 38,000 - apologies. To address #2 above, taking the larger estimate from Palestine#Current demographics of 10.8 million yields a corresponding calculation of 2038 * 303 / 10.8 = 57,000. - TB (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As you have done the calculations, do you want to include both comparisons? The number of Israelis killed that were civilians is clear and undisputed, for the most part. But the classification of "civilian" for Palestinians is much more debated. As said in the article, some believe B'tselem's definition of a civilian is too loose. I personally do not think someone killed while attacking someone else should be classified as a civilian, just because they are not officially a member of a terrorist group, as that leaves the indication that they were entirely innocent. I think it would be difficult to get an accurate "corresponding statement for Palestinian deaths". Some sources say that civilians make up about 37 percent or less; others say 50 or more. --96.60.171.236 (talk) 04:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't for us to decide how to derive a particular figure; we simply report the best data available, citing the most reliable sources available. If reliable sources disagree or are of dubious reliability, we report that fact to our readers also.
That aside, I'm still not sold on the merits of expressing death counts in terms of 'were this the USA population':
  1. Both parties involved here are of similar populations (7.7 million / 10.8 million), making the original figures (981 / 2038) of similar ratio to the proportional ones (38000 / 57000). Were the populations of dramatically differing sizes, the comparison might reveal more.
  2. The US population is an odd choice of yardstick; both domestically and internationally people have only a vague sense of the 'size' of the USA and it's population. Certainly being vastly larger, it has the effect of scaling up the figures from 'a villageful' to 'a cityful', possibly exaggerating the scale of the conflict.
  3. Where a comparison with a similar conflict might be more useful you have to go back at least a century to find a vaguely similar conflict in the USA (Texas War of Independence possibly?). This further confuses the matter by comparing smaller historical populations with larger modern ones :(
All in all, I believe the proportional figures add confusion rather than clarity in this case, but am open to argument. - TB (talk) 07:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More to the point these rather clumsy attempts to demonstrate proportionality are plainly unscientific and quite unnecessary. Who disagrees that the loss of even a single human life is a tragedy? On that basis, simply limiting ourselves to keeping an accurate record is sufficient. Yarzharzhin (talk) 09:21, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More to the point these rather clumsy attempts to demonstrate proportionality are plainly unscientific and quite unnecessary. Who disagrees that the loss of even a single human life is a tragedy? On that basis, simply limiting ourselves to keeping an accurate record is sufficient. Yarzharzhin (talk) 09:21, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jenin[edit]

I think it would be a good idea to compile the casualties from the Battle of Jenin together rather than list them all separately. It was virtually the same incident, not multiple incidents as it currently appears in the article. --96.60.171.236 (talk) 21:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Mercaz HaRav massacre.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Why two lists?[edit]

Why are there two lists on this page. Why not just have a single list of Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada? We already have individual pages for Palestinian and Israeli civilian casualties if people are only interested in one or the other. Dlv999 (talk) 08:24, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All pictures here show Israeli casualties[edit]

All eight pictures here show Israeli casualties, though one of them is Arab. That's not neutral. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:45, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There were also a leftover of a image that had been deleted. Any way, I just added four pictures of Palestinian casualties. --IRISZOOM (talk) 01:37, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Smart Editing techniques[edit]

This article is filled with subtle antisemitic material and using Smart Editing techniques, I have fixed it. Look at my edits for an example of Smart Editing techniques and hpefully we can get rid of antisemitic material in all articles.--64.250.232.51 (talk) 17:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.250.232.51 (talk)

"Smart Editing techniques"??? what the hell are you on about? Stop blanking content. -- Ϫ 17:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Old English has discredited himself with these bigoted statements:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:OlEnglish#You_are_against_fairness_for_Israel I will therefore now revert his edit and move forward with Smart Editing--64.250.232.51 (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Should the tables here be removed?[edit]

I think the tables that are here should be removed. They are already in the articles List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada and List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada. So I see no point in having them here too, especially when there are two articles just for that. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:09, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Wrong title of article[edit]

The title the article is "Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada"...then the lead makes clear that it is only Israeli civilian casualties which are included. From the title I also expected Palestinian civilian casualties.

So, what to do: shall we start to include Palestinian civilian casualties (so the title live up to its name)...or shall we change the name to "Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada"?? The second choice is obviously the easier..... Comments?

If I don't hear any comments in the near future, I will go ahead and change the title to: Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada". Huldra (talk) 21:46, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, since I haven't heard anything from anyone; I'll move this article to Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, Huldra (talk) 22:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Huldra, is there a Palestinian civilian casualties article?--SharabSalam (talk) 23:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SharabSalam, to the best of my knowledge: no. I suspect a Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada would have quite a few more names than this article..Huldra (talk) 23:51, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Huldra: I don't think that your merge was helpful; just renaming the List section would have been sufficient. The article had and has a section on Palestinian non-combatant casualties and Foreigner casualties in the Second Intifada. Before your move, the structures was an overarching "Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada" article, with two daughter articles: List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Al-Aqsa Intifada and List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada. Now we have two pages purportedly covering Israeli civilian casualties, and one for Palenstinian casualties. Are you able to reverse request a reverse of the move? Klbrain (talk) 09:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, User:Klbrain, this is a year ago, and I really cannot recall my thinking. Except I see that there had been attempt to move it just before.

I any case, this article is 177k large, does anyone object to:

(Also, we should "standardise" the name: either use "Second Intifada" or " Al-Aqsa Intifada", not both. Since Al-Aqsa Intifada is the "official wiki name" I suggest that), Huldra (talk) 20:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great plan, Huldra. There's not much to move in terms of the casualties deaths, as the lists almost completely overlap. An alternative might be to transclude (section transclusion; see WP:SELTRANS) the Israeli and Palenstinian list of deaths in the joint article; this might ensure that people weren't concerned about missing deaths, why prevent the administrative effort of maintaining two lists. I agree with your point about regularizing the name, and with the choice: Al-Aqsa Intifada. Klbrain (talk) 21:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not very technical (a mv is about my limit), ahem, if I may ask you to do the WP:SELTRANS? I'll do the moving back (and general clean-up here) (yeah; I know: the easy part ;)) Huldra (talk) 21:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. So, move page to Civilian casualties in the Al-Aqsa Intifada, move Israeli material to List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Al-Aqsa Intifada, move Palestinian material to List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, then section transclude each list to here. Klbrain (talk) 10:46, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Huldra: I've made these page moves and transclusions; there's perhaps more work to be done on the lede of this article as its structure partially reflects its origin. That might be a matter for separate discussion, or perhaps resolved boldly. Happy for other decisions to be made, and my apologies if I'm missed unique content. Klbrain (talk) 11:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Klbrain: Thank you for your work! ...but the names I checked on this list were all also on List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Al-Aqsa Intifada, and that they shouldn't be? To you mind if I remove the duplicates? Huldra (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The idea behind the transclusion is that the list appears in both places, but can be edited only in one place. In that way, we can ensure that there is no duplication of effort in maintaining the lists, but also that readers can see the information they're looking for regardless of the page they're looking at. Klbrain (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Klbrain: sorry, I don't understand this. Presently, this article is 33 kb, List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Al-Aqsa Intifada is 91 kb, while List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Al-Aqsa Intifada is 25 kb. This doesn't add up. Is the intention that you should be able to only edit these two last articles, and then the result will be in this article? If so, it doesn't work, Huldra (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really see why you need this article at all if you have the other two, it's two separate lists, the title of this one could dab to the other two.Selfstudier (talk) 18:57, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It does have unique content because of the "Foreigner casualties in the Second Intifada" section, which doesn't exist elsewhere. Perhaps a clearer solution might indeed be to remove the transclusions and just add a template:main in each of the Israeli and Palestinian territories (essentially dabbing the other two); that would work. That does, though, create another click for readers that's not needed if you transclude, and the present structure (with transclusions) doesn't cost anything in terms of maintainance. So, I think that either would work. Klbrain (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that we had agreed that this article was only for those cases not in the two other (the Israeli & Palestinian lists)? So yeah, we should have a link to those two articles, and remove every case which is a duplicate in any of those two articles. Huldra (talk) 21:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Broken transclusion[edit]

The tranclusion of the Palestinian casualties list is currently broken due to the List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada being deleted. More information: Wikipedia:Deletion review#List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada.—Alalch E. 14:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Page title[edit]

Why the page's title called "Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada" if it's about both Israeli and Palestinian casualties? It should be "Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada" --Crazyketchupguy (talk) 12:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada already exists... El_C 12:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See preceding section for resolution. Klbrain (talk) 11:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved

B'tselem's obvjectivity questioned by Camera.[edit]

I've removed the following sources (Camera, Arutz Sheva (!!!)) because I do not believe they are reliable for facts.

However, B'Tselem has been accused of inflating Palestinian civilian casualties and repeatedly classifying armed terrorists as civilians by the Israeli journalist Caroline Glick, CAMERA, NGO Monitor and JCPA.[1][2][3][4][5][6]<ref>UPDATED: In 2007, B'Tselem Casualty Count Doesn't Add Up, CAMERA. The page translates an Hebrew report from Haaretz, presenting Dahoah-Halevi's report.

B'tselem covers both sides, and minutely. Its statistical charts are in progress, and under revision constantly, according to the field data that emerges slowly. It is also responsive to criticisms of error, which cannot be said of the sources used to challenge the data. The data span should cover the decade, and criticism of B'tselem's data idem. It is also a matter of dated citational overkill.Nishidani (talk) 12:26, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is it your personal opinion or do you have sources to back it up? Alaexis¿question? 10:56, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You need sources for CAMERA and Arutz Sheva not being reliable? nableezy - 15:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with clarifying Btselem tally without referencing CAMERA as it's done now. Alaexis¿question? 18:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ "Column One: Agents of influence". Retrieved July 24, 2017.
  2. ^ B'Tselem, Los Angeles Times Redefine "Civilian" Archived September 9, 2014, at the Wayback Machine, CAMERA Media Analyses, July 7, 2003.
  3. ^ Sternthal, Tamar (2008-09-24). "Bending the truth". Ynetnews. Retrieved August 17, 2012.
  4. ^ "Researcher Slams B'Tselem as Inflating Arab Civilian Casualties". Israel National News. Retrieved July 24, 2017.
  5. ^ B'Tselem's Annual Casualty Figures Questioned, CAMERA Media Analyses, January 3, 2007.
  6. ^ Betselem: Report Uses Outdated Sources and the Rhetoric of Demonization Archived January 2, 2016, at the Wayback Machine, NGO Monitor Analysis (Vol. 2 No. 12), August 15, 2004.
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