Talk:Circassians in Israel

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Azat Naffso[edit]

"In May 1987 a Circassian IDF Lieutenant, Azat Naffso, was released from prison having served 7 years of an 18 year conviction for spying. The scandal surrounding his wrongful conviction led to the establishing of the Landau Commission." Sorry to see there is no place Naffso - I don't know of any other Circassian who had as much impact on events in the modern state of Israel. Padres Hana (talk) 20:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Zero on this issue. Adding information about Naffso into this article as it is might imply that the Circassians are mostly known for their crimes against Israel—a statement which could not be further from the truth. —Ynhockey (Talk) 08:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that Naffso was found not guilty of committing crimes against Israel. His determination to prove his innocence led directly to the establishment of a judicial inquiry into interrogation techniques used by the Israeli secret security police. Which, in turn, led to the first attempt to bring their activities under some form of judicial control. Yani, a key moment in the history of Human Rights in Israel. Someone who, perhaps, Circassians in Israel would be proud of. I don't know. Padres Hana (talk) 20:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The story is appropriate for Landau Commission and there is already a paragraph there. In order for it to appear here, I think you would need a source that ties it to the Circassian community generally. For example, if it says that the public perception of Circassians was significantly shaped by the event that might be enough. I'm not strongly opposed to it being here in some form, but I think that in general articles on ethnic communities should not be filled with information about individuals whose only connection is to be a member of the community. Zerotalk 22:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes ...but, for example see the article on Sephardic Jews which leads with a montage of individuals whose only connection is their ethnic community. etc Padres Hana (talk) 12:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of image[edit]

The abandoned mosque in the abandoned Circassian village Tzurman located in the Golan Heights.

What policy-based reason motivated the removal of this image from the article? "The Golan Heights are not part of Israel," aside from not being entirely true, is not a policy-based reason for removing the image from the article. Articles about Israel are allowed to refer to locations in the Golan Heights.—Biosketch (talk) 03:52, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And more wikistalking I see. The reason being, this article is about Circassians in Israel, while this image has nothing to do with Circassians in Israel, the picture shows a mosque in a village in a place that is not in Israel, and the people who lived there never lived in Israel. Suraman "Tzurman", was a Syrian village:[2]. The Circassians who lived in Golan were Syrians living in Syria: [3] "In the Syrian Province, the Circassians were settled primarily in the Golan Heights of Syria," [4] When Israel occupied the area, they did not live there any more: "Prior to the Israeli occupation, the Golan Heights had (according to Syrian official sources) a population of approximately 80,000 ....... It was an ethnically and religiously mixed population of Circassians, Druzes, Alawites and Sunni Arabs. Except for four Druze villages in the extreme south, with 6,000 inhabitants, the entire population left the region with the withdrawal of the Syrian army. Agriculture and stick raising were the main occupations of the former Syrian inhabitants" [5], "In the 1967 war the majority of the Syrians on the Golan Heights, who had resided in some 35 villages, fled the area. Until then, in addition to Druze and Alawites, the population also included Circassians" [6]. Therefore its irrelevant to have this picture from this Syrian village in this article, for the same reason we don't ad pictures of Circassians in Turkey or Circassians in Albania in this article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mosque in the Syrian[1] Circassian village Suraman located in the Golan Heights.

I think that including images of Golan locations in articles about Israel (where the Golan is not a specific point of discussion) is unnecessarily provocative. The article won't suffer without it. Zerotalk 14:56, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs)' explanation above is adequate in this case. But I don't understand why he has left the image in the article and pushed Syria into the caption where it wasn't before. That isn't consistent with how he responded to my initial query.—Biosketch (talk) 08:19, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Apteva (talk) 00:53, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]


– Is there some reason these don't match the parent page, Adyghe people. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of Circassians in Israel, the current title is strongly supported by policy, see WP:COMMONNAME. The relative frequency in English writing on this geographical area must be 100 to 1 in favor of "Circassian". Zerotalk 09:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Is there some reason these don't match the parent page, Adyghe people." Yes. Although the term "Adyghe" may be more common when applied to populations in Russia, "Circassians" is definitely more common when referring to historical and diaspora populations. —  AjaxSmack  04:14, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I do know a little bit about the ethnic composition of the population of Israel, I have heard of the Circassians before, never heard of the Adyghe. There may be a discrepancy, but that is a serious case for moving the Adgyge article. PatGallacher (talk) 11:29, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for reasons given above. Generally known as the Circassians to history. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:49, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Source quality and balance[edit]

This article, which some anon keeps removing, is 100 times better than this article, whose reliability is highly dubious. The first is a carefully researched academic article and the second is, what? Why is "My Jewish Learning" a reliable source for anything? I'm not putting the good source back in at the moment because my French is poor and the text cited to it before was not good. However, the excuse for removing it as "false, unreliable, cherry-picking, contradicted by reliable sources" is rubbish and should be considered disruptive editing. Actually there are two different phenomena going on here. The community tries to fit into Israeli society while keeping its unique identity at the same time; that is just the typical dilemma that many a minority faces. The reaction of the Israeli authorities is sometimes to the detriment of the community. Both the good and the bad should be included. Zerotalk 13:05, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting references[edit]

2 users have deleted "my" sources, 2 studies of a French researcher about Tcherkesses, speciallly one intitled in English "Tcherkesses in Israël : non-Arab Arabs", published in Israël, in the Bulletin du Centre de recherche français à Jérusalem.

Thank you Zero, who reacted above.--86.249.204.46 (talk) 14:14, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the text you are including is bad English and badly written. If you know someone fluent in both French and English who can help you to cite those sources probably, that would be the way to go. Zerotalk 08:41, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well integrated or discriminated ?[edit]

Vulkan Of Nocturne (6 Juune 04:16) says that "all reliable sources in the page "Circassians of Israël" deny the discriminations" towards Circassians in Israël.

But the article does not deal with this subject, if we except one line saying : "Circassians fought on the Israeli side of the War of Independence. ". That's all. It doesn't mean that 70 years later they are well integrated.--86.249.204.46 (talk) 14:20, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring and Vandalism[edit]

Vulcan of Nocturn removed 5 times a reference to academic researches, one of them published by Bulletin du Centre de recherche français à Jérusalem.

I substitute to a French reference an ENglish one (same author, same article).

Enough is enough. See three-revert rule --86.249.73.38 (talk) 12:33, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. : In addition to academic references, there are newspapers ; for example : "Druze and Circassian activists have also called on the government to provide more affordable housing in their communities, and to cancel controversial land appropriations. In addition, the forum is calling on the government to increase funding to Druze and Circassian communities.

Current state funding does not take recent price increases into account, Fares said. Druze and Circassians receive less than Arab or hareidi-religious communities, he said, despite “sixty years of loyalty.” http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132179. It is possible to insert this citation in the WP article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.249.75.31 (talk) 21:32, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Denied full citizenship[edit]

What does it mean?Either there are Israeli citizens or not.And those who live in Israel are.--Shrike (talk) 06:36, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is admittedly a bit confusing without reading the source and I'll try to correct that. It means that Circassians do not enjoy the benefits of citizenship to the degree they are enjoyed by the Jewish majority. Which is reported in many places (but we don't need other places since these sources are top-rung). Zerotalk 09:15, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK that need to be clarified I think we need to trim the quote only to "Denied full citizenship" and explain what it really means according to the author.--Shrike (talk) 09:33, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think Bulletin du Centre de recherche français à Jérusalem [En ligne] (after a translation to English) is a rather poor source. The assertion in the article "denied full citizenship" sourced to Indeed, while the Israeli Circassians are treated quite differently from the Palestinians, they are still denied full citizenship and are often victims of discrimination - is clearly factually false (it is easy to source Circassians are citizens and that there isn't a "full citizenship" status in Israel - I wouldn't be surprised if there were a translation error from French to English (as translation of such bulletins are often shoddy affairs)). The article goes on after this assertion to mention an anecdote of security checks at the airport - which seems to be about discrimination - perhaps the original (French) source was saying something like "treated as second class citizens" - which would be inline with what the text describes.Icewhiz (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Bulletin is published by the "The French Research Center of Jerusalem (CRFJ), a joint research unit in the field of humanities and social sciences under the CNRS and the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs." according to the French Wikipedia, if that helps. The CNRS is "The National Center for Scientific Research , better known by the acronym CNRS , is France's largest public scientific research organization . Legally, it is a public institution of scientific and technological character (EPST) under the administrative supervision of the Ministry of Higher Education, Research and Innovation." Doug Weller talk 16:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If this Bulletin is published under the CNRS, then it's all but "a poor source". I worked for the CNRS (when i published some articles for them in the field of mathematics) and i can testify that the level of requirement is extremely high, this is one of the best research organisations of the world. Anyway, no matter what my opinion is about the CNRS, You should take a look there if you want to have a perspective. best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 17:08, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikaviani: - could you take a peek at the French original? This may be a translation issue.Icewhiz (talk) 17:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, sure, the original version in french says "La spécificité israélienne tient, sans doute, dans la discrimination opérée au sein même de la catégorie nationale. En d’autres termes une carte nationale d’identité israélienne (Teudat Zehut) ne suffit pas à faire de son détenteur, un "bon" citoyen Israélien, surtout s'il n'est pas juif et surtout s'il possède un nom à consonance arabe. Et même si, officiellement, il n'existe aucune discrimination, la réalité est toute autre. Les discriminations sont visibles au quotidien et cette affirmation ne fait plus grand débat chez les scientifiques, tant étrangers qu'israéliens, y compris chez les tenants du concept de "démocratie ethnique" qui ne nient plus la hiérarchisation officielle des groupes de population." This can be translated in english as :
"The Israeli specificity is undoubtedly due to discrimination within the national category. In other words, an Israeli national identity card (Teudat Zehut) is not enough to make its holder a "good" Israeli citizen, especially if he is not Jewish and especially if he has an Arabic-sounding name. And even though, officially, there is no discrimination, the reality is quite different. Discriminations are visibles in everyday life and this assertion is no longer much debated among scientists, both foreign and Israeli, including among the proponents of the concept of "ethnic democracy" that no longer deny the official hierarchy of population groups."---Wikaviani (talk) 17:51, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, i'm quite reserved about this quote, it seems that this is only the opinion of one person which is reported here, this opinion is likely not WP:NPOV, for example, the person says "And even though, officially, there is no discrimination" but just after, says "Discriminations are visibles in everyday life and this assertion is no longer much debated among scientists, both foreign and Israeli, including among the proponents of the concept of "ethnic democracy" that no longer deny the official hierarchy of population groups", this is a blatant contradiction and this would mean that rather than a precise scientific work, this report is only the opinion of a person. Hope this can help. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The opinion that there is some unofficial or quasi-official discrimination is within the "normal boundaries" of the range of opinions. But nothing about lack of "full citizenship"?Icewhiz (talk) 18:03, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not on page 28 (the page given for the quote).---Wikaviani (talk) 18:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

… there doesn't seem to be anything about denial of citizenship. Of course in all countries there are people who view certain groups of people as "not hte best citizens" but that is the stance of private individuals, not a sovereign state, and cannot be described as such without citation for official policy or even de facto official policy. ---- Calthinus (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that non jew citizens of Israel are, according to the source, discriminated is a kind of denial of full citizenship but i don't know if this is WP:OR to include this in the article.---Wikaviani (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a fact, but an opinion (and I will note that this applies more to Arabs, not to Circassians, except when they are mistaken for Arabs). Some people think African-Americans are discriminated against (BLM, incarceration rates, etc.), and in the past the TSA would extra-check everyone born in the middle east or travel history to there (similar to the airport screening issue in Israel - non-Jews are more likely to be selected for screening) - should we state that various allegedly discriminated groups in the US are not "full citizens"? And... The source in French is not saying this.Icewhiz (talk) 20:04, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
One point for you, i agree that we should remove this from the article. Thanks.---Wikaviani (talk) 20:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is just another attempt to delete criticism of Israel from Wikipedia. Eleonore Merza is an expert on the Circassians of Israel and her judgements are quote-worthy. The claim "not a fact, but an opinion" is entirely devoid of weight, since almost all judgements of overall discrimination are opinions. (And this from someone who adds pro-Israeli opinions every day.) The question is whether the person giving the opinion is qualified to give it, which is undoubtedly true in this case. The only requirement we have is to attribute the opinion. The "contradiction" that Wikaviani sees in the French version does not exist, since lots of examples of discrimination in the world (eg. against blacks in the USA) are officially nonexistent yet acknowledged by nearly everyone who studies it. It is perfectly self-consistent. Zerotalk 04:14, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can you actually locate the quote in the source that says "denied full citizenship"? Because it seems none of us can and it is not on the page it was cited for. And by the way, I'm the one who added criticism of Islamophobia in Israeli society and how it affects Circassians to this page. ---- Calthinus (talk) 04:27, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, as an opinion it should be attributed. I think it is preferable to just the quote directly with attribution, since any paraphrasing is likely to be challenged Seraphim System (talk) 04:29, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wikaviani seems to be quoting from a different article altogether. The correct article is here and the corresponding passage seems (to my French-deficient self) to match the English pretty well:
Ils partagent la peur et les discriminations avec les uns, une volonté absolue de distinction et les accusations de traîtrise avec d’autres, mais ils aspirent surtout à vivre – et sont prêts à négocier leur place – avec d’autres encore. Ces modalités d’identification, qui ont amené la communauté à faire des choix parfois douloureux et qui n’ont pas fini d’avoir des répercussions sur son quotidien, génèrent des frustrations. Car les Tcherkesses d’Israël, s’ils bénéficient d’un traitement spécifique bien différent de celui accordé aux Palestiniens, n’accèdent pas encore à une citoyenneté pleine et font état de nombreuses discriminations.
Despite what it looks like out of context, she is not claiming that the Circassians are not citizens of Israel. On the contrary, she repeatedly states as a fact that they are citizens of Israel in this article and the other one. Instead of using these few words as an excuse to eliminate her expert testimony, one should try to gauge what she means. And it is quite obvious if you read the whole article: quoting myself from above, "Circassians do not enjoy the benefits of citizenship to the degree they are enjoyed by the Jewish majority". She not making a legal claim, but stating her judgement about Circassian life in practice. Zerotalk 04:42, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Calthinus: For convenience, here is the official English translation of the passage:
"Like some, the Circassians experience fear and discrimination; like others, they are accused of treachery and strongly wish to be recognized as unique; with others still, they wish to live together while making sure they get recognition. These identification practices have led the Circassians to make difficult choices that have an ongoing impact on their daily life and cause frustration. Indeed, while the Israeli Circassians are treated quite differently from the Palestinians, they are still denied full citizenship and are often victims of discrimination." Zerotalk 04:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph after that (following an anecdote) explains what she means quite well:
"All Circassians agree that they consider themselves as full Israeli citizens and they call history as a witness to their 'unique' situation. They note, however, that they still aren’t viewed as citizens 'like the others.' Individual accounts confirm this feeling but the distinction also affects the community as a whole." Zerotalk 04:49, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lets not over-stress this individual's "expertness". While she received a PhD, she is better known as a "anti-colonialist activist". [7] As for a summary of her opinion, I it would seem to me that she is mostly saying "Circassians face some discrimination when they are confused for Arabs". Her example (next paragraph) of "discrimination" is a security check at the airport allegedly due to the daughter of her witness (who Merza says identifies as Israeli and her husband serves in a high ranking position in the IDF) having a "very Arab name" - voyager, et comme tout le monde, quand nous partons à l’étranger nous prenons notre avion à Tel-Aviv. Lorsque nous sommes contrôlés par la sécurité, il y a des problèmes. La dernière fois, une gamine de dix-huit ans nous demande, souriante, nos cartes d’identité. Nous lui tendons et lorsqu’elle les regarde et qu’elle lit notre nom, son visage change. Notre nom fait très arabe pour une Israélienne de dix-huit ans. Elle nous demande de patienter et appelle son supérieur, X [son mari, ndlr] lui demande alors quel est le problème (...) nous savons très bien quel est le problème.... Icewhiz (talk) 04:51, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A link to a description from Mondoweiss is not enough to say she is better known as, and BLP still applies to talk pages so please be careful about disparaging remarks intended to question someone's professional reputation or competence. An English language version of the article under discussion is also available in English here Seraphim System (talk) 04:54, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
She is with de-colonizer.[8] And was (or is?) also involved with Zochrot.[9]. Per google-scholar this is her publication list - scholar.Icewhiz (talk) 05:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While on the one hand I don't think an author's political views (Mondoweiss and being a proclaimed "anti-colonialist activist"... doesn't leave much to the imagination; despite the fact that even right wingers now thing colonialism is wrong the only people who call themselves that tend to be on the (far) left) discredit their work which we hope is not driven by political motivations, it is of course preferable to include commentary from both sides of the spectrum.---- Calthinus (talk) 05:32, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Zero0000: "Denied full citizenship" will be understood by Anglophones to mean denied citizenship by the state-- rather obviously a legal claim, which was not the intention in French. Thus, the way it was written on this page, in English, was misleading, as pretty much everyone came to agree. We deleted that part of the quote, kept the rest, with the page now saying this while the Israeli Circassians are treated quite differently from the Palestinians, they are still … often victims of discrimination. While I confess there may have been episodes in the past of suppression of criticism of Israel on Wikipedia, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that here and I don't think bringing that up (or Black Americans) is particularly helpful to civil debate as personally I find the accusation rather alienating (I added criticism of Israeli society to this page yet I was also the one who carried out the deletion here, and I really don't have a history of suppressing criticism of Israeli gov't policy at all...). Do you actually have a problem with the sentence as it stands now? ---- Calthinus (talk) 04:57, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Calthinus: I have no objection to adjusting the wording in a way that our readers will better understand, provided the essentials of her criticism are conveyed without too much weakening. Also, I have not studied the article history and have no reason to criticise your editing in paticular; apologies if it seemed like that.
Regarding the article being cited, Bulletin du Centre de recherche français à Jérusalem is an academic journal with impeccable reputation, and we can rely on their professionalism to judge the quality of what they publish. As we usually do with academic sources. Zerotalk 05:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about the bulletin - is it peer reviewed? Or is it a bulletin covering internal research? When this was published (et effectue actuellement un post-doctorat au Centre de recherche français à Jérusalem.) - Merza was doing a post-doc at the Centre de recherche français à Jérusalem in whose bulletin this was published.Icewhiz (talk) 05:25, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And considering this was sourcing a a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim ("still denied full citizenship" - though we're not so sure about the proper French translation for this bit) - one would expect a few more sources to support this proposition.Icewhiz (talk) 05:35, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
BCEFJ is not like a typical academic journal in that it focusses on the work of the Centre rather than accepting submissions from anywhere. Articles are approved by a "Reading Committee" which includes many famous scholars [10]. Zerotalk 05:47, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And continuing to harp on the "exceptional claim" despite seeing proof that it doesn't exist does you no credit. Zerotalk 05:49, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Per - [11] - Le Bulletin du Centre de recherche français à Jérusalem est une publication annuelle qui vise à faire connaître les recherches et les activités du CRFJ. À partir du numéro 19, année 2008, le Bulletin est disponible uniquement en ligne .... L’accent est mis sur les travaux des chercheurs du crfj et de ses chercheurs associés. La diversité des articles exprime la variété des disciplines présentes au Centre. On trouve également dans le Bulletin un compte rendu des activités de l’année passée : rencontres scientifiques bilatérales ou internationales, séminaires de recherche, cours et conférences mensuelles. (via google-translate - The Bulletin of the French Research Center in Jerusalem is an annual publication that aims to publicize the research and activities of the CRFJ. Starting with issue 19, 2008, the Bulletin is available only online .... The focus is on the work of the crfj researchers and its associated researchers. The diversity of the articles expresses the variety of disciplines present at the Center. Also in the Bulletin is a summary of last year's activities: bilateral or international scientific meetings, research seminars, courses and monthly conferences.). It not clear to what extent the reading committee vets the publication (not specified) - but many of the people on it are associated with CNRS.
So no - this is not quite an academic journal - it is a vehicle for publication of the center's research (and publicize its activities in general) - this would be perhaps more akin to a position paper or research report issued by the institution itself.Icewhiz (talk) 06:01, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by what I wrote and I'm not interested in your word games. It passes RS by a mile. Zerotalk 06:06, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:UNDUE. An article by a post-doc in their institution's annual publication. The article itself, or for that matter other articles by the author, do not seem to be particularly cited by others.scholar.Icewhiz (talk) 06:40, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think Circassians have been living in Israel since the Ottoman era - so they would legally be Israeli citizens under Israeli laws. There are other cases where persons born in Israel don't automatically gain citizenship - the source itself explains all this in detail, but taking this quote out of context could be confusing. I think Wikaviani's quote covers roughly the same ground, but is less ambiguous.Seraphim System (talk) 08:03, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

sorry guys, i was away from my computers, my appologies. In the quote by Seraphim System we have a clear statement of denial of full citizenship : "Car les Tcherkesses d’Israël, s’ils bénéficient d’un traitement spécifique bien différent de celui accordé aux Palestiniens, n’accèdent pas encore à une citoyenneté pleine et font état de nombreuses discriminations." The bold part of the sentence means "they do not yet have full citizenship". Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 08:21, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it says that — if you read more of the source, I don't think it means the Circassians are not legal citizens, but rather that there is still a hierarchy of nationalities that is separate from citizenship (because nationality and citizenship are not the same thing in Israel) - this is discussed at length and explained very well in the source, but it seems the meaning of the quote is confusing for some editors - the quote posted earlier in the discussion may explain this better: "Discriminations are visibles in everyday life and this assertion is no longer much debated among scientists, both foreign and Israeli, including among the proponents of the concept of "ethnic democracy" that no longer deny the official hierarchy of population groups" Seraphim System (talk) 09:10, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed.---Wikaviani (talk) 09:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This quote - Circassians and Druzes are Israeli citizens and, as opposed to what might be expected in such a situation, they still carefully keep various traditional and predominating cultural elements. While, at times, they are still discriminated against, they are better integrated as Israeli citizens than the majority of the Muslim population, in particular the Arab-Palestinian one. and This particular relation between the Israeli Circassians and the State of Israel has two consequences. The first one, indisputably, is the gap between the treatment of the Circassians and the Druzes on the one hand and the Palestinian population of the country on the other. While they are not fully considered as Israeli but as a kind of second-class citizens (because in Israel, citizenship is linked to the ethnic background, and because Circassians are Muslim), Circassians are undoubtedly perceived as traitors by some Palestinians. by Eleonore Merza in Being both Non-Jewish Israelis and Non-Palestinian Muslims: Isn’t it Too Much? perhaps avoids tangling citizenship and alleged discrimination by this Author (who I contend in UNDUE).Icewhiz (talk) 10:27, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm not sure I would remove her entirely, I do agree that her view -- and political background -- are certainly not anywhere close to mainstream. Kadir Natho, Circassian historian who is himself Circassian on the status of Circassians in Israel (page 517-518): "At the present Kfar Kama reminds one of the prosperous city republics of the Hellenic Greece. The only difference is that here the mayor and his governing apparatus are elected democratically by all the inhabitants of the striving village, which has an excellent clinic, shops, mosque, school and Khasa -- the Circassian cultural organization... The Israeli government subsidizes the school, the clinic, and other projects. All the inhabitants of Kfar Kama receive excellent municipal and public services. Remarkable is the fact that the inhabitants of the village are purely Circassian, and that all of them old and young speak Circassian fluently" (of Middle Eastern states, this is only true of Jordan and Israel really, the others either don't try to help preserve Circassian language and culture or worse actually surpress it). Listening to Circassians themselves, it's hard to reconcile what they say with the picture Merza paints. Amjad Jaimoukha, another Circassian academic who last I heard has somewhat pro-Palestinian views, has also said as much regarding the favorable position of Circassians in Israeli society and their success at both prospering and preserving their culture where elsewhere (with the notable exception of Jordan) things have not gone so fortunately. For me this is an issue of WP:BALANCE: the section should cover both Circassian success (socioeconomically, in cultural preservation, in integration and participation in the political system, etc) within Israeli society and the (yes it exists) discrimination against them, but the version prior to this dispute with the extraordinary statement about "citizenship being denied" felt very much slanted to the anti-Israeli side, by relying on the views of academics at least one of whom cannot be regarded as middle of the road as Icewhiz aptly demonstrated .---- Calthinus (talk) 16:16, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"While they are not fully considered as Israeli but as a kind of second-class citizens (because in Israel, citizenship is linked to the ethnic background, and because Circassians are Muslim), Circassians are undoubtedly perceived as traitors by some Palestinians." Is untrue. Resident Circassians, Druze, Jews, Christians and Muslims became citizens in 1948. There is no legal category of "second class" citizenship in Israel, no ranked categories of citizenship, and the fact that legally ranked categories of citizenship have existed in this region makes this a fraught term. It is both UNTRUE and WP:UNDUE to state that Circassians are "a kind of second-class citizens."E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:16, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
However, E.M.Gregory, although your opinion is valuable, a source has been quoted above and seems to support a kind of denial of full citizenship ... Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 10:28, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To the extent that this source (a non-notable scholar in a non-notable publication,) "seems to support a kind of denial of full citizenship," it is UNDUE and problematic. Nuanced consideration of the difficulties Circassian Israelis (Ottoman Galilee settlers of the 1870s) face as a very small ethnic group attempting to maintain language and culture in a modern society is appropriate.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:00, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FYI the source has been endorsed as "reliable" by many contributors (including Doug Weller, an admin) ... Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 11:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Doug Weller is a very admirable editor but still he has been mistaken in the past at times just like all the rest of and does not seem to have given an opinion on the sentence it was used for which gave Anglophone readers the impression that Israel has some sort of tiered hierarchy of different types of citizenship for different groups, which is of course false.---- Calthinus (talk) 17:27, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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