Talk:Characene

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Comments[edit]

I remember reading that there was supposed to be a relatively strong Arab presence or connection... AnonMoos 08:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

is Characene[edit]

is Characene Arabian kingdom ? if not .. then what is the language of them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.77.3 (talk) 09:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arabs probably made up a significant proportion of the population (or at least of the ruling elite), according to Colin McEvedy's Penguin Atlas of Ancient History, though the main trade languages and probable languages of administration were Aramaic and Greek... AnonMoos (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pliny the Elder said the king of Characene and the kingdom were Arabs (Pliniy, Nat. Hist. VI 138-39) -- Udimu (talk) 19:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Map image[edit]

The map image is unfortunately quite implausible (contradicts the article text and the 74 B.C. map in The Penguin Atlas of Ancient History by Colin McEvedy. See further commons:File talk:Karte Charakene.png... -- AnonMoos (talk) 02:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How come Pacorus II of Parthia is listed as ruling from 80-102?[edit]

Nothing in either this article or his page says he conquered Characene?--JaredMithrandir (talk) 01:26, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Characene was part of the Parthian empire, there was no need to conquer it. In 80-102 Characene was directlty ruled by the Parthians without a local vassal king. -- Udimu (talk) 06:49, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Issues[edit]

1. Hyspaosines. Iranian[1][2], Greek[3] , Arab[4]?

2. Characene's founding:"Characene was founded around 127 BC under Aspasine, known in classical writings as Hyspaosines, a former satrap installed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes." Well, Antiochus IV was dead by 164 BC. So, [Hy]aspasine was installed at Antiochia by Antiochus IV, but clearly not in 127 BC.

  • Also, according to McLaughlin(ibid), "When the Parthians conquered the eastern half of the Seleucid realm, the local Greek commander Hyspaosines took the title of king and founded a new Hellenic dynasty at Charax to govern a region call Characene (127 BC). The new kings of Characene accepted Parthian suzerainty, but with a well-defended capital they could assert their independence and challenge outside interests."
  • According to Potts, refers to [Hy]Spaosines as satrap at Antiochia. That Spaosines restored Antiochia and named it after himself.[5]
  • According to Hansman, "The name Charax Spasinou means "Palisade of Hyspaosines" or "Spasinou", who in ca. 140 B.C. founded the kingdom of Characene."[6]

3. Characene kings' names. According to Eilers(ibid), "All rulers of the principality had Iranian names."

  • According to Jan Retso, "We have a list of kings in Characene from 127 BC to AD 116 reconstructed from numismatic evidence. None of the names in it are what we would call Arabic, although the name Attambelos, used by at least five of them, is Semitic."[7] Consequently, on the same page Retso(ibid), states the kings in Charax were not Arabs in any sense of the word.

4. Language(s). Aramaic.[8] Greek?[9]

  • According to Kosmin(ibid), "As the editors acknowledge, this inscription is extremely important. In demonstrating the existence of a Characenian administrative district of Tylos and the Islands, it establishes Mesenian royal control of Bahrain from the reign of Hyspaosines (Seleucid satrap from the 160s; independent king from at least the early 120s), i.e. the earliest days of the independent Kingdom of Characene. The stratēģos has a Greek name and dedicates a temple of Greek deities on behalf of the royal couple. The inscription itself demonstrates a Greek-speaking community on the island."

5. Usage of primary(outdated) sources. Al-Tabari, Yaqut al-Hamawi, both need secondary source backing.

6. Generalized source. A History of World Societies. I believe we can find better specialized secondary sources for this article than this. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:40, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Hansman, John (1991). "Characene and Charax". Encyclopaedia Iranica, Vol. V, Fasc. 4. pp. 363–365.
  2. ^ Eilers, Wilhelm (1983), "Iran and Mesopotamia", in Yarshater, Ehsan, Cambridge History of Iran, 3.1, London: Cambridge UP, pp. 481–505
  3. ^ Raoul McLaughlin, The Roman Empire and the Silk Routes, page
  4. ^ "The Persian presence in the Islamic world", Ehsan Yarshater, The Persian Presence in the Islamic World, page 22.
  5. ^ "Arabia and the Kingdom of Characene", Daniel T. Potts, Araby the Blest: Studies in Arabian Archaeology, pages 137-138
  6. ^ "The Land of Meshan", John Hansman, Iran, Vol. 22 (1984), page 162.
  7. ^ Jan Retso, The Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads, page 333.
  8. ^ Bosworth, C. E. (1986). "ʿArab i. Arabs and Iran in the pre-Islamic period". Encyclopaedia Iranica, Vol. II, Fasc. 2. pp. 201–203.
  9. ^ "Rethinking the Hellenistic Gulf: The New Greek Inscription from Bahrain", Paul Kosmin, The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 133 (2013), page 62.

just to the first pointː ː"Characene was founded around 127 BC under Aspasine, known in classical writings as Hyspaosines, a former satrap installed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes."

  • Hyspaosines became king about 127 BC, but was installed before that as satrap (Pliny the Elder, nat. VI 139). So there is no problem with king Antiochus IV and the date 127 BC.--Udimu (talk) 21:48, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for creating this talk page section Kansas Bear. This is what I found in the Oxford Classical Dictionary (4 ed.). Could be of use:[1]
  • "MESENE: from Aramaic Maišān, the southernmost part of Iraq, around modern Basra, basically coterminous with the Seleucid satrapy of the Erythraean Sea, the capital of which was Alexandria-on-the-Tigris (later refounded as Antioch). Following the death of Antiochus (7) VII, Spaosines (Hyspaosines), his former satrap there, restored Antioch, renaming it after himself as Spasinou Charax, ‘City of Spaosines’ (Plin. HN 6. 31. 138; Charax from Aramaic karekā, ‘city’), and establishing the independent kingdom of Characene. The kingdom survived, enjoying varying degrees of independence from Parthia, until it was incorporated into the Sasanid empire by Ardashir around ad 222. From the mid-1st to the late 2nd cent. ad Palmyrene caravans regularly travelled between Charax and Palmyra, transporting goods arriving via the Persian Gulf from the east. In 131 Meredat, king of Charax, employed a Palmyrene named Yarhai as satrapēs Thilouanōn, ‘satrap of the Thilouanoi’, i.e. inhabitants of Tylos (mod. Bahrain)."
- LouisAragon (talk) 23:28, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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