Talk:Bryan Danielson/Archive 2

Requested move 25 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved; absent the arguments other the relative importance of WWE vs AEW, there is one major consideration to be dealt with: is Danielson reverting to his birth name reflected in reliable sources? And the answer is yes, sources have followed that, sometimes with the "known in WWE as Daniel Bryan" caveat. This would also be consistent with most other "WWE wrestler goes to AEW" move requests recently; there are more Cash Wheeler situations than Paul Wight situations, after all. Sceptre (talk) 18:37, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

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Daniel Bryan → Bryan Danielson – Given the continued failure of anyone to explain why WP:NAMECHANGES should not apply to this circumstance (and noting that WP:NAMECHANGES is explicitly a subsection of WP:COMMONNAME and that attempts to pit the policies against each other are nonsensical), and that mainstream sources have consistently used the new name since he debuted for AEW ([1] [2] [3] [4] this page should be moved unless someone can present an actual policy-based account for why it shouldn’t be. Winter's Tulpa (talk) 20:33, 25 September 2021 (UTC) Winter's Tulpa (talk) 20:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. Havelock Jones (talk) 10:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose per above. As Daniel Bryan, he was one of the biggest wrestlers of the past decade, 10 years under the same name. Two WrestleMania Main events, 5 World Titles, the overly massive Yes Movement... Daniel Bryan has 175.000.000 results from Google, while Bryan Danielson 10.900.000 results. At this point, Daniel Bryan stills the WP:COMMONNAME. Too soon for a name change. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:52, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

This comment flatly ignores policy. Again, WP:NAMECHANGES is a special case of WP:COMMONNAME that actively says not to just do a Google search but to look at reliable sources published after the name change. Citing WP:COMMONNAME as a refutation of WP:NAMECHANGES is simply not the way things work, and anyone doing so should be roundly ignored. Winter's Tulpa (talk) 04:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Per WP:NAMECHANGES, If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. 162 etc. (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support. I was previously against a name change, but OP is correct in pointing out that WP:NAMECHANGES is very clear: Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 07:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
• comment - isn't this a bit soon to be suggesting that there are enough reliable sources written after the name change are all referring to them by this new name? From what I can tell, the name has been changed for less than a month. All the citations in the body are subject specific sources, so would refer to them by their gimmick name, I'd like to see what sources are out there from other RS, and give some time for a body of references to show that indeed they all refer to them as Bryan Danielson, rather than say "Daniel Bryan, now known by real name Bryan Danielson in AEW", or similar. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:15, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Of course, the difficulty here, is that the new gimmick name (or old, depending on how you look at it), is the subjects real name, so sources could be referring to them by their real name, or by a gimmick name.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:17, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Bryan Danielson's official Twitter account uses Bryan Danielson as both the user name and display name . All major and independent media sources that cover his work now refer to him exclusively as Bryan Danielson, generally with brief mention of him as being "formerly Daniel Bryan" . He has also insisted that he does not want to infringe on WWE's intellectual property and has made deliberate attempts to distance his current work outside of WWE from his work in WWE, and numerous interviews he has been accidentally referred to as "Daniel Bryan" which has led to an immediate apology from the person using that name to refer to him . In a much older interview when he was still with the WWE he was asked why he changed his name and said it was so that WWE would own the trademark for that character , so referring to him as Daniel Bryan at this point is incorrect and only refers to a specific character in a television program that he is no longer involved with.

• Oppose Sorry, but Danielson has just started reusing this name, in like a month I would agreee fully with this change, but people are still going to look up Daniel Bryan, it's his most recognizable name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mogar101 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose for now per WP:COMMONNAME. Professional wrestling ring names are tricky because they can change frequently and some are more "sticky" than others. For example, reliable sources have referred almost exclusively to Glenn Jacobs for the past three years but his article is still (rightly, I think) titled Kane (wrestler), the persona he adopted for over two decades.

It might also be helpful to look at the last time a Daniel Bryan page move was discussed. Bryan had been wrestling in WWE under the Daniel Bryan ringname for two years before his Wikipedia page title was finally changed. One month is too short a time to determine whether Bryan Danielson will "stick". Uncle Dick (talk) 17:56, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

• I want to stress again, for the closing admin, that we have a policy that applies here in the form of WP:NAMECHANGES, and that comments opposing a page move really need to come up with some explanation of why that polcy does not apply here. If Wikiproject:Professional Wrestling wants to come up with a special case rule for name changes in this area they’re welcome to develop a consensus for it, but otherwise the policy applies. Winter's Tulpa (talk) 18:48, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose because he is best known as Daniel Bryan. WP:COMMONNAME PedigreeWWEFigz87V2 (talk) 22:08, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

• Weak oppose, for now WP:NAMECHANGES includes the caveat that article titles should use commonly recognizable names. This will probably get moved in the foreseeable future, but this is easily the subject's most commonly recognizable name. Some recent (post-AEW) sources still reference the Daniel Bryan name, either in reference to his WWE character or so that readers know who they're talking about.[5][6][7][8][9]LM2000 (talk) 22:14, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Support - His twitter handle state Bryan Danielson @bryandanielson, ths source is https://twitter.com/bryandanielson and from the man himself and we should update this page to reflect what he wants to be know as within the business rather then us speaking for him, simple Gsweetuk (talk) 12:34, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, his twelve years in WWE as Daniel Bryan holds more weight than what he did before or since. McPhail (talk) 16:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – This smacks of policy shopping in yet another attempt to keep the encyclopedia focused on current events at the expense of the big picture. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:31, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
• comment, I don't even know how this is even being disputed, it is clearly aligned with policy to change the name:

   ″Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, as described above in "Use commonly recognizable names"″

Reliable sources have written and continue to write using the new name exclusively. Bryan Danielson does not own the rights to "Daniel Bryan" and has gone on record that he will being respecting WWE's intellectual property.

The following is sample (of many) more examples where the new name is being used:

New York Post Wrestling Inc. Cageside Seats Bleacher Report F4W Online Sports Illustrated Fox News SEScoops CNET 411Mania CBR

Of course this excludes Bryan Danielson's own personal branding across all social media platforms, which he changed from Daniel Bryan to Bryan Danielson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.252.114.197 (talk) 10:41, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

• "Reliable sources have written and continue to write using the new name exclusively". The exclusively part is false, I included sources from the past few weeks that referred to him as "Daniel Bryan". Some of those sources you included even mention "Daniel Bryan" at various times. That's so that readers know who they're talking about. He was a top guy (for awhile, arguably THE top guy) in WWE under that name at a time they were doing double the viewership they are now.LM2000 (talk) 11:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Mentioning that "Daniel Bryan" was his previous name is hardly the same as actually referring to him using that name as the subject of an article. Additionally, even the footnote mention of Bryan Danielson as "formerly Daniel Bryan" has become significantly less frequent in mainstream publications and nearly non-existent in major wrestling publications. I'm not sure what your comment is intended to prove because it is merely you presenting your own perception of the WWE's television ratings and his place in the hierarchy of that organization. Your personal fandom of WWE programming is irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.252.114.197 (talk) 12:42, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
    • WWE does a good job of cutting their viewership in half every couple of years. Not that it matters, but I'm part of that group that had stopped watching regularly before Danielson even debuted in NXT. It really doesn't matter, he still wrestled by the name they assigned him for 12 years and was a top star (for awhile, arguably the top star) when their viewership was double what it is today. That's why most sources continue to refer to the subject as Daniel Bryan (or formerly Daniel Bryan)... Most people don't know who the hell Bryan Danielson is. It's true that you won't see "formerly Daniel Bryan" in sources that post routine AEW TV results though. The same sources did this for routine TNA results back in the day, yet we never rushed to move Billy Gunn's article to Cute Kip.LM2000 (talk) 08:52, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
      • Once again, this is all based on your personal perception, which does not matter. Please stop injecting your personal wrestling fandom into a matter of Wikipedia policy.

Jon Moxley also famous by Dean Ambrose name in the past decade but when he signed with All Elite Wrestling his name is also changed to Jon Moxley from Dean Ambrose King Rudra 03:21, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Moxley, Miro and Brodie Lee had won championships in other promotions before they got moved from their WWE names. They'd been there long enough that sources had actually stopped using their WWE names, so the NAMECHANGES argument held more weight.LM2000 (talk) 08:52, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

• The NAMECHANGES policy has nothing to do with your personal perception of a fictional championship in a television program. The policy is clear (and correct) that we should trust the reliable sources, not wrestling marks.

• Support He has spent more time wrestling as Bryan Danielson then he has under Daniel Bryan Eerie Holiday (talk) 15:48, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
  • That's not the case. His career began in 1999, so he has been wrestling for 22 years. 11 of those years were for WWE as "Daniel Bryan". For the remainder, he used either "Bryan Danielson" or "American Dragon". Cagematch records 1,835 matches wrestled by him of which 1,054 were as "Daniel Bryan", 522 were as "Bryan Danielson", and 259 were as "American Dragon". Not to mention the first 11 years of his career largely comprised untelevised matches seen by relatively few people. McPhail (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support, per NAMECHANGES and because even during his time in WWE his real name (and remember, Bryan Danielson isn't a gimmick name, it's his real name) was well known and widely used because of his appearances on Total Divas and Total Bellas, which featured his relationship with his now-wife, including their wedding. In other words, Bryan Danielson is arguably just as well known to the non-wrestling audience, and has always been his name. oknazevad (talk) 12:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME. BBX118 10:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support. In the past, I have cited WP:COMMONNAME as an argument as to why we should not change the article names of recently renamed wrestlers, but that argument isn't really viable in this case. I would wager that almost every dedicated wrestling fan would know about his name change and would be able to identity him, even if the article name was changed to Bryan Danielson. It's not like he quit WWE to go back to the indies, he's jumped to the number 2 promotion in the US, and all major outlets now refer to him under his new name. Yes, more people know him as Daniel Bryan than as Bryan Danielson, but his new name is recognisable enough in it's own right to justify a change. Not to mention, Bryan Danielson is his real name anyway, and he wrestled under that name for a decade before joining WWE, so it's not like this is brand new. Furthermore, a name change is inevitable anyway, might as well do it now. No need to delay it in my opinion. DTH89 (talk) 12:23, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support. WP:COMMONNAME is very clear. 192.236.64.165 (talk) 02:25, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support, per the arguments that WP:COMMONNAME states that if reliable sources are using the "new" name, that Wikipedia should follow. Plus the fact that Bryan Danielson is also his birth name, as well as the fact that, as other users have pointed out, this was the name used on shows such as Total Divas and Total Bellas and is therefore in much more common usage than some users are acknowledging. CeltBrowne (talk) 07:39, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support, under the argument that if we can change Christian's name to Christian Cage, though he spent many years in WWE and is best known by that name, surely we can do the same for Danielson. ekedolphin (talk) 02:00, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
• oppose. He main evented wrestlemania, he was world champion several times and was behind the yes movement. He is best known as Daniel bryan95.127.243.30 (talk) 10:04, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2021

Shouldn't the the title of the infobox at the top of the page (Daniel Bryan) changed to the article's current name (Bryan Danielson)? OmniusM (talk) 04:13, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes,  Done. Thanks. — Czello 07:06, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2021

He wrestled as Infinito at Dark. [10] [11] Can you include it in the list name? --83.40.25.172 (talk) 11:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Heartmusic678 (talk) 12:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Bryan Danielson’s status.

Something I notice on articles about athletes who are held in the highest regard in their field is a line along the lines of “Widely considered to be one of the best X in the world today/of all-time.” As a lifelong wrestling fan, Bryan Danielson is absolutely worthy of having “Widely considered to be one of the greatest professional wrestlers of all time” in his opening paragraph, much like Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart have, amongst others. 78.19.101.27 (talk) 04:41, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Have you got a couple of sources that actually say that though? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:55, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2022

"Danielson is considered to be one of the top submission specialists and one of the greatest wrestlers of all-time" Sjms111 (talk) 04:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)