Talk:Bruce Lee/Archive 4

Feats

Folks, we really need to be careful with the feats that are being attributed. I absolutely love Bruce Lee but seriously some of these feats are just over the top. I removed the thrusting fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola and one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood because they were attributed to the book "Tao of Bruce Lee" p. 141. There was absolutely no mention of this. The other was the holding of a 125 lb (57 kg) barbell straight out. This feat is not only insane; I'm seriously questioning website article "WARM MARBLE" The Lethal Physique of Bruce Lee". I have all of Mr. Little's books and nowhere does he make mention of these claims from the web site. Also web sites are extremely unreliable and should be taken with a grain of salt unless well referenced. The wiki encyclopedia is only as good as its source materials. No sense in using unreliable or unsupported documentation. Just because something exist on a web site doesn't make it true. Journalist usually require at at least two sources before publshing, I think we need to do the same. The other thing is I belong to a pretty big Gym and out of curiousity I asked all the strongest people to attempt this feat and not a single one could even come close; really preposterous. I think we are serously degrading Wiki by allowing such uncollaborated information. FrankWilliams (talk) 03:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with the Coca Cola thing, also never heard about it. There is also a feat (witnessed by Joe Lewis (martial arts)) Lee was able to hold a 75 lb. (34 kg) barbell straight out for a time of 20 seconds. Maybe someone change it to 125 lb. (57 kg)...

Well 75 lbs is a much more believable feat then 125 lbs. I would have no objections to adding the 75 lb feat if properly referenced. FrankWilliams (talk) 18:56, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are some statements which were VERY referenced and not mentioned on this page. Just some of them (including source):

• In a dictionary, you say "greatest", you say "Bruce Lee", that´s the way it is. He is second to no one.
  • Sugar Ray Leonard (from minute 3.46 to 3.57)
• I wouldn't have put a dime on anyone to beat Bruce Lee in a real confrontation. Bruce Lee was the best street fighter I ever saw, even to this very day, and not just pound for pound — but against anyone in a real fight.
  • James Demile in a Temple of the Unknown interview (10 April 2001)
• When Bruce Lee kicked, you shouldn´t blink with your eyes, because if you do, you don´t see his kick, it´s so fast! Human beings can´t move like colibris, so that´s the fastest you can be. Even Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson, their punches are fast, but you still can see.
  • Jackie Chan (from minute 0.45 to 1.14)]
• Bruce Lee is the leading candidate for being the greatest martial artist of all time.
  • Joe Lewis, quoted at Temple of the Unknown
• ...that made Lee arguably the greatest martial artist of his time, or any other.
  • Bill Duff in the martial arts and fighting sport documentary Human Weapon by The History Channel, episode 10: "China and Kung Fu", aired November 2, 2007. (from minute 2.20 to 2.30)

Just some examples. You can actually hear the original voice of Leonard, Chan und Duff. And you can read the statements of Lewis and DeMile (if you have more time, just read the whole interviews, some points are interesting). Even if all of those 5 quotes have credible source, not one of them is mentioned on this page. And with all respect, Leonard is one of the greatest Boxers ever, like Lewis was voted twice as the greatest fighter of all time in the sport karate. DeMile was an undefeated Boxer at the US Air Force with 128 victories, became one of Lee´s first students in the USA, later in 1985 and 1986 he was a teacher for some soldiers in unarmed combat, and finally he was a Sheriff until 2005. Chan is a movie legend with knowledge about martial arts, and Human Weapon is a 16-part documentary about martial arts and combat sport, produced by on of the best and most serious channels about documentary films, The History Channel. You can read all of those comments on Wikiquote, but not anyone has time to check out Wikiquote. Finally it´s on you and the other Wikipedians to make the decision about it. But i think some of those quotes should be readable on Lee´s Wikipedia page as well, not just on Wikiquote. Take Care —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.58.248.72 (talk) 17:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

What does this mean? "Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second." 3 feet = 0.9 meters in a 500th of a second = 450 meters per second! This is over 1000mph! This is a blatantly false feat if I'm reading it correctly. User:Mekhatronic (talk) 02:05, 29 April 2009 (GMT)

Fortunately, you're wrong. Five hundredths of a second = 5/100 s = 0.05 s. Thus, the speed is 0.9/0.05 m/s = 18 m/s

91.156.11.38 (talk) 22:34, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Still ludicrous. 18m/s? From a cold start? Nuh uh. Not even Bruce Lee. Further, I see ludicrous things like the steel coke can have returned. ONLY reliable sources should be cited. The article is explicit in its admission that some of these are unreliable, so lets sort through them until they're all reliable. 61.148.127.54 (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Your own disbelief doesn't merit removal of cited sources. The fastest punch ever recorded is 43 mph, which is nearly 19m/s. Lee's striking speed is within the realm of possibility of a elite martial artist. 98.175.165.82 (talk) 09:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Something on this page appears to be physically impossible, and I don't mean physical dexterity or speed. It says that Bruce Lee could lift leg waits with his body out horizontally resting only on his shoulders. This defies laws of physics ans your centre of gravity is your abdomen, so lying horizontally, he would actually have to be sitting on the bench to not tip forward and be reverted to a leaning position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.189.158 (talk) 09:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Chinese

He is Chinese , Hong Kong Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.246.159.110 (talk • contribs)

He is a quarter German, and 3/4 Chinese, by origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.242.212 (talk) 02:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, he was an American. Of Chinese ancestry, to be sure. But he was an American. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.26.82 (talk) 15:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. He was born to Chinese (Hong Kong native) parents who were VISITING the United States at the time that his mother went into labor, and soon after his birth they returned to their home, where he was raised. They had him invoke the US citizenship, which was a legal technicality resulting from that accident of birth, in his maturity to get away from the street gangs with whom he was getting into trouble. I repeat, he was a Chinese (of partial German ancestry? I've never heard that outside Wiki) who legally claimed American citizenship, possible due to absolutely nothing more than the geographic location of his birth, in adulthood. --Ted Watson (talk) 20:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

He was born in the USA, he had American citizenship, therefore he is American, PERIOD, no caveats, no ifs, no buts. Anyway, back in 1940, Hong Kong was BRITISH and nothing to do with China for another 57 years. Chinese? You're the kind of guy who would say Barack Obama is Kenyan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.24.56.129 (talk) 14:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Saying "no caveats, no ifs, no buts" doesn't make them cease to exist. He was not American in any meaningful sense until he returned to the US in adulthood to claim American citizenship as the location of his birth gave him the legal right to. I'd put in "Hong Kongese" or something if such a term could be confirmed as used by these people. Due to the uncertainty of that, "Chinese" is being applied in the same sense that an Irishman, native to the British Isles, could be called British. Besides, Hong Kong was simply on lease from the country of China all those years and was returned per said lease's terms in 1997; "Chinese" isn't really inappropriate to the people of Hong Kong at all. As for Obama in this context, all I know is that last year someone filed a lawsuit to have both him and McCain (therefore, no partisanship) removed from the ballot as neither qualified as an American-citizen-by-birth. It was dismissed on the grounds that the plaintiff had no standing to sue over that claim, not on its merits. --Ted Watson (talk) 03:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Ted, my boy, what do you suppose "American" means? Do you suppose it means "of European ancestry that eventually came to settle in a continent several thousand miles West across an Atlantic Ocean and eventually participate in the formation of the United States of America?" American means bearing American citizenship. That's the dictionary definition. And if the suit was dismissed, what do you suppose that says? 61.148.127.54 (talk) 00:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

What dictionary? And when I mentioned the suit I said what the exact point of the dismissal was and was not. Can't you read? --Ted Watson (talk) 20:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

If he is soooo chinese, how come he went to America, took American citizenship, swore loyalty to the country and constitution of America. And one can't deny that America welcomed him, and gave him the opportunity which made him famous.Civilizededucation (talk) 03:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is no reason to so much as suspect that he ever "swore loyalty" as he did NOT have to go through the naturalization process, but merely produce his birth certificate to prove he was born on USA soil, and the authorities had no choice but to let him simply enter the country with no more restrictions on his movements than anyone who was born and raised here. His birth, I repeat, happened when his Hong Kong-native parents were merely VISITING the country. And "the opportunity which made him famous" came in Hong Kong. Most agree that this wouldn't have happened without The Green Hornet and Marlowe in Hollywood first, but they did not make him famous; the chop-socky pix in HK did that. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Your argument is reasonable but the issue is not nearly as clean cut as some people are claiming. First, he has an American citizenship, not a Chinese one, by the virtue of his birth location. Your point about his parents merely visiting the US is a strong one. It's analogous to children born to American military personnel while overseas. Most of them would be considered American. However, the issue becomes muddier when he moves back to the US and lives there for his adult life. He is educated in the U.S. and published in America. While he found his biggest success in Hong Kong movies, he acted in various American movies or shows before that. In addition, he married an American woman and raised a family in the U.S. Lastly, he is also buried in the U.S. If the only reason he was in the U.S. was to flee his gang issues, by the time he was an adult those issues no longer mattered. At that point he could have returned to Hong Kong and relinquished his American citizenship but he didn't. Instead of he choose to stay and raise his family in the U.S. When you weigh his childhood years in the Hong Kong against the total of his life, it doesn't seem fair to call him Chinese. By any other measure except for his childhood and parts of his career in Hong Kong, he would be considered American. (Argument continues below in a different section. It seems the debate here has ended and moved down.) Comatose51 (talk) 03:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Bruce Lee spent the majority of his life in Hong Kong not U.S. He initially educated in Hong Kong. He started and finished his career in Hong Kong. Remember, Bruce Lee was introduced into films at a very young age and appeared in several short black-and-white films as a child in Hong Kong. He had his first role as a baby who was carried onto the stage. By the time he was 18, he had appeared in twenty films in Hong Kong.

This is a very important issue, he married an American woman doesn't make him not a Chinese, and he buried in the U.S that was totally down to his wife's decision. You said: he could have returned to Hong Kong and relinquished his American citizenship but he didn't? Who knows? He might have given up his American citizenship when he finally returned to Hong Kong in 1971. The term "Hong Kong people" means Hong Kong permanent residents with Hong Kong Identity Card.

You said: Bruce Lee choose to be an American when he was given the choice as an adult? If that was the case, he wouldn't returned back to Hong Kong in 1971. Remember, Bruce Lee only became world famous after the film "The Big Boss" released in HK , since that time, he didn't move back to US. Certainly, Bruce Lee was Hong Kong permanent resident at the time of his death. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 08:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

he had dual citizenship, british and american. parents were british subjects and he was born in the states. legally he is entitled to both. if he renounced either later in life then it is a different story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.22.11 (talk) 02:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I repeat again, here.

Hong Kong people were not British subjects if they did not apply for it before 1997. Perhaps, there were only very few amount of Hong Kong people had BNO or British passport before 1997. Bruce Lee was definitely not in this situation. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 11:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

As far as everyone’s concerned…………

Before Bruce Lee became famous, the Americans did not accept him, and did not consider him as an American. That was how and why Bruce Lee felt himself as a Chinese and needed to return to Hong Kong in 1971, and he stayed in HK for his future.

On the other side, before Bruce Lee became famous, Hong Kong people accepted him and were glad for his return to HK. Bruce Lee was impressed by them, he stayed in HK for the rest of his life (although his life was short).

The Americans only supported him after he became famous in HK. But Bruce Lee was not impressed by how the Americans were treating him.

Even in the film: Enter the Dragon (his only starring film targeting the Western audiences), Bruce Lee portrayed as a Chinese Shaolin martial artist from Hong Kong (similar to his other films). “The finished version of the film was significantly different from the original screenplay drafts as Bruce Lee revised much of the script himself, including having written and directed the film's opening Shaolin Temple fight sequence. Lee wanted to use the film as a vehicle for expressing what he saw as the beauty of his Chinese culture, rather than it being just another action movie.” Quoted from Enter the Dragon’s article.

Bruce Lee portrayed the Chinese national pride and Chinese nationalism in his movies. As audiences, and fans of Bruce Lee from all around the world, we could easily understand what’s on his mind. Bruce Lee always felt himself as a Chinese more than anything else, and Hong Kong was his home. That was the only reason he returned to HK. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 12:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Richard Lee's arguments are absent of logic, but full of emotion, in short, they are pointless and absurd. Bruce Lee was an American citizen at birth, and could have renounced that citizenship in adulthood, but he did not. He moved to America, married into an American family, fathered American children, pursued a career in America. Richard Lee is correct about Bruce Lee expressing a desire to move back permanently to Hong Kong, but that mean nothing. He was an American citizen, and took no know steps to change that. (75.69.241.91 (talk) 20:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC))

Because he was also a citizen of Hong Kong (via his parentage), he did not have to "take steps to change" his American citizenship when he went back to HK, just as he took no steps to change his HK citizenship when he came to the US. It is your post that is "pointless and absurd." --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

He failed a US Army medical that could have sent him to Vietnam. 06:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.215.245 (talk)

The IP 86.40.215.245 above, don’t know what he/she’s trying to say.

Let me give an example: “A Japanese guy who was born in USA, returned back to Japan, he is still a Japanese person.”

Besides, Bruce Lee did returned back to Hong Kong. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 12:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Lee was American

We seem to be going back and forth on Bruce Lee's nationality. While he was born an American and holds an American citizenship, a strong case can be made that he is Chinese rather than Chinese-American because he spent the first 18 years of his short life in Hong Kong and his later acting career success happened in Hong Kong. On the other hand, he returned to the US, was educated in the US, had his early acting career in the US, married an American woman, raised his family in the US, and is finally buried in the US. Yet of his short life, the majority of them were spent in Hong Kong. Should he be called a Chinese-American or Chinese? Comatose51 (talk) 04:09, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

He is born in the USA and he had only the American citizenship for all his life.We should write "An American with Chineses origins".--Ujkaj4president (talk) 16:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

As noted in the thread of similar topic immediately above, Lee did not claim US citizenship until reaching maturity. Somebody who knows Hong Kong legalities will have to establish just what citizenship he grew up with, but it was not American. His legal right to claim that was nothing but a geographical accident of birth, which was ignored until he got into trouble with gangs and claiming US citizenship and relocation was a handy means of getting him out of harm's way. --Ted Watson (talk) 04:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Then how do you call someone born in the USA and with American citizenship Chinese? Hong Kong was a part of British Empire, so his only Chinese part were the parents.--Ujkaj4president (talk) 11:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand your question but I'll lay out the point again. Lee was born with the right to claim US citizenship, not the citizenship itself, and did not do so until he was a legal adult. Therefore, your first posting's statement, "...he had only American citizenship for all his life" is erroneous; according to your new statement, he was apparently a British citizen. Furthermore, he made the claim out of a need to leave Hong Kong, not a specific desire to come to America for itself. Were it not for those troubles, he almost certainly would never have exercised the option. It is absolutely inappropriate (at the least) to refer to him flatly as an American in the intro of an encyclopedia article. --Ted Watson (talk) 06:46, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

But we should say of his Ameican citizenship.Without that "accident of birth" he maybe would never made movies like he did!do you agree writing Chino-American or something like that?--Ujkaj4president (talk) 12:52, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

PS: French/Spanish/German/Italian wikipedia:American with chineses origins. If you Americans don't take your own people, who will? --Ujkaj4president (talk) 13:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

He is not our "own people" as I have already explained. Ignoring that and asserting the contrary will not make it so. We should say something about his American citizenship, yes, but flatly calling him "American" in the intro is not it, and that was what you have said you want. I have no idea what you think you are accomplishing with that list of other Wikipedias and the phrase "American with chineses [sic] origins," but as our dispute is whether or not Lee qualifies to be flatly called an American in the first place, they are irrelevant. --Ted Watson (talk) 20:40, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Ted, you're seriously confused about several issues.

1. If someone is born in the US, they are a US citizen. There is no need to "claim" the citizenship. Therefore, BL was an American his entire life. He probably was also a British citizen from birth, since his parents were residents of HK. He was NOT however, ever a citizen of the ROC or the PROC, and so was NEVER a Chinese citizen.
2. It is standard practice in bios on ENGLISH wikipedia to list the person's citizenship in the intro, usually in the opening sentence.
3. Even if you erroneously ignore the fact that BL was an American his entire life, you must acknowledge that at the very least he immigrated to the US, and it is standard wikipedia practice for bios of people who immigrate to a country and obtain citizenship (regardless of their motives) to list that citizenship in the opening sentence of the intro. See eg, Ariana Huffington or Rupert Murdoch.
4. If a person's ethnicity is notable, it is perfectly fine to note it in the intro, either as a phrase ("John Smith was an American of Chinese ancestry") or hyphenated term ("John Smith was a Chinese-American"); however it in NOT acceptable to conflate ethnicity with citizenship (eg, "John Smith was Chinese").

Therefore, while it is correct and standard to say, eg, "Bruce Lee was a Chinese-American" or "Bruce Lee was a British and American martial artist of Chinese ancestry" it is wholly incorrect to simply say "Bruce Lee was a Chinese martial artist". 68.73.84.231 (talk) 09:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

One other thing: BL's maternal grandfather was indeed German, as a review of any of the cited sources will confirm. 68.73.84.231 (talk) 09:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

From what I know of these matters, Lee was born with dual British-American nationality. There is some possibility he may have had triple British-American-Chinese nationality, but I don't know enough about Chinese law to comment. As I understand it, all children born on US soil are automatically US citizens. His father was born in 1901 in Hong Kong, a British colony, and at that time all children born on British soil (with very minor exceptions) were automatically subjects of the British crown, and his children would have become British subjects by descent.

Is there a clear distinction between someone "having the right to claim US citizenship" and simply being a US citizen? Did Lee have to go through some formal process of claiming US citizenship? He probably did have to apply for a US passport to get into the USA, but was this fundamentally different from the process any US citizen went through? Did he have to renounce his British nationality at any point in this process?

In my view, "Chinese-American" is the best brief description in the introduction, we can go into more detail later in the article. PatGallacher (talk) 17:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

You guys are all wrong. I'm in the same situation as Bruce Lee. My parents were from HK, and I was born in USA too. I am Hong Kong, Chinese and American citizens.

Hong Kong people were NOT British, they were Chinese. Only the people who work for the government before 1997 with the right to claim British nationality. Therefore Bruce Lee was only Hong Kong, Chinese and American citizens. Bruce Lee was Chinese, even he was born in USA. Let me explain: he was a triple Hong Kong, Chinese and American citizen. BUT

• He was Chinese ancestry.
  • Nearly all Americans are of non-American ancestry, except for American-Indians. Comatose51 (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
• His parents were from HK.
  • See above.
• He raised in HK.
  • But he spent the majority of his adult life in the US, married an American woman, raised his family in the US, and is buried in the US, despite having died in HK. Comatose51 (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
• He started and finished his career in HK.
  • According to the article, he started acting in the US but later found success in the HK. Comatose51 (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
• He spent most of the time in his life in HK.
  • He moved to the US as an adolescent, was educated in the US, and his early career was in the US. Comatose51 (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
• Because there is no such "Hong Kongese". Therefore all the Hong Kong people are Chinese. The introduction in this article should be: "He was an American-born Chinese Hong Kong Martial artist". See Daniel Wu Jaycee Chan for examples. Even though his English skills are a little lacking and he didn't sign→BINGO! --Ted Watson (talk) 22:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I see nothing in the 2 sources quoted to back up the claim about his parents' citizenship. I don't think there was a separate Hong Kong citizenship at that time, the inhabitants of Hong Kong were British subjects. If Lee's father was born in China he was presumably a Chinese national, although he may have become naturalized British. PatGallacher (talk) 11:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

If you know nothing about Hong Kong law, please do not edit. There was a separate Hong Kong citizenship and the inhabitants of Hong Kong were not British.

I'm an American-born Chinese, and my parents were from Hong Kong. I'm triple citizens but not British. User:Richard Lee 9 (User talk:Richard Lee 9) 12:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, according to Chinese law, the PROC does not recognize dual citizenship. Articles 3 and 5 of their nationality law would pretty much exclude that. My background is similar to yours except I was born in China, moved to HK, and then moved to the US and was raised here in the US. At the end of the day, I consider myself American because not only do I hold an American citizenship, I also spent most of my life in the US, have American values, and have strong sentiments for the US. My litmus test has always been, if there was ever a war between China and the US, which side would I want to be on? The answer was clearly America so I consider myself an American. How would you answer the question? How do you think Bruce Lee would have answer that? I actually don't know how he would have decided. Comatose51 (talk) 03:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

See British nationality law and Hong Kong. So at the time Lee was born there was no separate Hong Kong citizenship and the bulk of the inhabitants of Hong Kong were British subjects. Anyway, this does not address my main concern i.e. that there appears to be no source for the claims about the nationality of his parents. PatGallacher (talk) 14:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

See Hong Kong Identity Card. Hong Kong people do not have British passport.

You reckon his parents were not Chinese and Hong Kong citizens that they lived in Hong Kong for years, and his father was even born in China? Im sure his parents were Chinese and Hong Kong citizens. User:Richard Lee 9 (User talk:Richard Lee 9) 15:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I have read the article on Hong Kong Identity Card, this describes the current situation, not the present one, and the article says that this was only introduced in 1951, a few years after Lee was born. I don't know what his parents' nationality was, but I know I don't know. If you persistently remove the dubious flag from unsourced (and in some respects implausible) statements then I will take this further. PatGallacher (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Many articles in Wikipedia are uncertain anyway.

The Hong Kong Permanent Identity was introduced in 1949, Bruce Lee (with his parents) lived in Hong Kong from 1941 to 1959 (3 months old until 18 and a half) and he was then returned to Hong Kong in 1970s. So they must have the Hong Kong Permanent Identity Card.

The only thing unsure is his parents were actually American citizen or not ? This article is about Bruce Lee not his parents, therefore we should not quote his parents' nationality. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 19:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Citizenship can be a complex issue with many people. Looking into this further in related articles, Lee was definitely a US citizen, probably a Chinese citizen, and possibly a British subject. However there was no separate Hong Kong citizenship in his younger days, the inhabitants of HK were British subjects. Hong Kong may have introduced its own identity card system during his childhood, but that was not quite the same as a fully-fledged separate citizenship. PatGallacher (talk) 08:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The Hong Kong Permanent Identity Card is the Hong Kong citizenship document. They used card instead of passport or paper document because it is compulsory to carry one's identity card when in public areas and to produce it when requested by a police or immigration officer.

I have no idea why do you think his parents were only American citizen but not Chinese and Hong Kong citizens? They were born in China and lived in Hong Kong, they were only touring in the USA and Bruce Lee was accidentally born in San Francisco. They returned to Hong Kong when Bruce Lee was 3 months old. (This might because his parents were not allow to stay longer in USA due to non-American citizen). Bruce Lee was American citizen due to the accident of birth in San Francisco, but he was also Chinese and Hong Kong citizens due to (his returned to Hong Kong) and his parents' Chinese citizen. I have already said, I was in the same situation as Bruce Lee. I was born in LA, then I returned to Hong Kong when I was a baby. I held Hong Kong, Chinese and American citizenships. Sorry my English is very bad but I hope you understand. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 12:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

But Bruce Lee's action as an adult suggests that he chooses to be an American and that's what we should consider him. After fleeing to the US because of his gang problems, he could have just as easily returned to Hong Kong. Instead he choose to live in the US, be educated in the US, marry an American woman, and raise his family in the US. He is also buried in the US. The majority of his life was spent in the US and when given the choice he chose to live in America. You choose to live in HK so no one is going to doubt that you're Chinese. Comatose51 (talk) 03:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

This is in danger of going round in circles. Your circumstances may not have been exactly the same as Bruce Lee's. I never said his parents were only US citizens, in my view there is the serious possibility they may have had Chinese or British nationality (or both) but we need clearer evidence of this. Try reading Hong Kong Identity Card and British Nationality Law and Hong Kong, the latter states "Citizenship matters were further complicated by the fact that British nationality law had always considered those born in Hong Kong were British subjects ...". The HK ID card is just that, an ID card, for all those with right of abode in HK, it was never a separate nationality. Citizenship can be a complex issue, the law of some countries has changed since Lee was born, the status of HK is particularly complex, we cannot go further without further evidence. PatGallacher (talk) 12:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

If you talk about evidence, by quoting references from other articles, books or web sites are not a strong evidence at all. ( The information from other sources can be incorrect ). In this case, we need to demonstrate all the Identifications, documents and passports of Bruce Lee in order to state what citizenships he held. ( but of course we can not do that ). You quoted "Lee was definitely a US citizen". I think you need to prove by showing his American passport. What I mean is this is only an online encyclopedia, not a statement, we can assume something by common sense. ( Just like many other articles in Wikipedia ). Richard Lee 9 (talk) 18:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I think I can put paid to this. Winston Churchill had just as much US citizenship at birth as Bruce Lee, in his case because of his mother (Jenny)'s nationality. The only difference is that while Churchill never used/invoked/claimed his birthright (that particular one, anyway), Lee did upon reaching legal adulthood, and then for what might be called an ulterior motive (to get away from his troubles with Hong Kong street gangs). If Bruce had never done that, just as Winston did not, then no one would be trying to flatly refer to him as "American" in his article's intro here. As for Lee's parents, I'm just about dead certain that this was the inadvertent result of some editor's limited English-as-a-second-language while trying to deal with Lee's multiple citizenships. And take a look at the "Early life" section: that line is long gone! --Ted Watson (talk) 20:56, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The Chinese-American article prominently features an image of Bruce Lee. If you are so adamant about him not being a Chinese-American, shouldn't you change that article as well? Shaolin Samurai (talk) 10:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of it. Thanks for the heads-up. --Ted Watson (talk) 16:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The Hong Kong people article also prominently features an image of Bruce Lee, and he was listed in it. It's obvious that he was Hong Kong people. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 16:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm repeating the argument I made above since it seems that the debate has moved down here. First, he has an American citizenship, not a Chinese one, by the virtue of his birth location. The point about his parents merely visiting the US is a strong one. It's analogous to children born to American military personnel while overseas. Most of them would be considered American. However, the issue becomes muddier when he moves back to the US and lives there for his adult life. He is educated in the U.S. and published his book in America and in English. While he found his biggest success in Hong Kong movies, he acted in various American movies or shows before that. In addition, he married an American woman and raised a family in the U.S. Lastly, he is also buried in the U.S. If the only reason he was in the U.S. was to flee his gang issues, by the time he was an adult those issues no longer mattered. At that point he could have returned to Hong Kong and relinquished his American citizenship but he didn't. Instead of he choose to stay and raise his family in the U.S. When you weigh his childhood years in the Hong Kong against the total of his life, it doesn't seem fair to call him Chinese. By any other measure except for his childhood and parts of his career in Hong Kong, he would be considered American. He spent the majority of his life in the U.S., raised his own family in America, and is buried in America. Within reason, a man is whatever he chooses to be and it seems that Bruce Lee choose to be an American when he was given the choice as an adult. Comatose51 (talk) 03:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm wrong about spending the majority of his life in the US. I didn't realize how short his life was. Comatose51 (talk) 04:07, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

You are wrong, Bruce Lee spent the majority of his life in Hong Kong not U.S. He initially educated in Hong Kong. He started and finished his career in Hong Kong. Remember, Bruce Lee was introduced into films at a very young age and appeared in several short black-and-white films as a child in Hong Kong. He had his first role as a baby who was carried onto the stage. By the time he was 18, he had appeared in twenty films in Hong Kong.

This is a very important issue, he married an American woman doesn't make him not a Chinese, and he buried in the U.S that was totally down to his wife's decision. You said: he could have returned to Hong Kong and relinquished his American citizenship but he didn't? Who knows? He might have given up his American citizenship when he finally returned to Hong Kong in 1971. The term "Hong Kong people" means Hong Kong permanent residents with Hong Kong Identity Card.

You said: Bruce Lee choose to be an American when he was given the choice as an adult? If that was the case, he wouldn't returned back to Hong Kong in 1971. Remember, Bruce Lee only became world famous after the film "The Big Boss" released in HK , since that time, he didn't move back to US. Certainly, Bruce Lee was Hong Kong permanent resident at the time of his death. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 08:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Comatose51: You say, "First, he has [sic] an American citizenship, not a Chinese one, by the virtue of his birth location." You say that as if he can have only one citizenship, but that's not true. As I have said more times than I care to count, his American birth (certificate) gave him the right to claim American citizenship whenever he (or until he reached the age of his legal maturity/independence and had the right to make that choice himself, his parents). Whatever citizenship went in his time with being a native of Hong Kong was the citizen he grew up as. He was raised with the exact same citizenship as his siblings, Hong Kong born all. We here at Wikipedia freely admit that we are not clear as to just what that citizenship would have been, but it damned sure was not American. Your attempt to dismiss the circumstances of his moving from HK to USA is irrelevant as it is a documented fact not open to dispute that this is what happened. His American citizenship was a birthright that was ignored at best for the first eighteen years of his life and was indeed no more than a right to be claimed. That his USA burial was his American widow's choice and not his own previously expressed wish is significant. He disliked Enter the Dragon, his only starring film targeting a "Western" audience, and he did not want Way/Return of the Dragon dubbed into English. There is no question that Lee's American citizenship was secondary to his HK/Chinese status in his own mind. In fact, I'd like to ask one question: When Bruce went back to Hong Kong in 1971—and stayed—how did he do it? Did he get a HK entrance visa as any other American citizen would have to do, or did he produce his birth certificate with its identification of his parents as HK natives and walk in as a citizen of HK? --Tbrittreid (talk) 23:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that he can only have one citizenship. For this article though, it seems that we need to conclude if he is American or Chinese (although I'm starting to wonder if that's the right way to do this. It's a difficult question to answer with a simple answer in cases like this.) I think your last question would be a really good way to tell how he thought of the issue himself. Do we have an answer to that? Also, I was just reading the article on Eric_Liddell and I think he is a really good analog for the issue at hand. He was born in China and lived there for a few years until he moved back to Scotland for his education. After competing in the Olympics, he returned to China and later died there. In his case, there's little question that he is considered Scottish. If we use that as an example, I would have to change my position and consider Lee to be Chinese. I believe I stand corrected on this issue. I want to leave the RfC tag up for a while longer to let other people chime in on this issue. Perhaps someone else could bring in a viewpoint that will sway our opinions. Comatose51 (talk) 03:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Tbrittreid is truly correct.

As far as everyone’s concerned…………

Before Bruce Lee became famous, the Americans did not accept him, and did not consider him as an American. That was how and why Bruce Lee felt himself as a Chinese and needed to return to Hong Kong in 1971, and he stayed in HK for his future.

On the other side, before Bruce Lee became famous, Hong Kong people accepted him and were glad for his return to HK. Bruce Lee was impressed by them, he stayed in HK for the rest of his life (although his life was short).

The Americans only supported him after he became famous in HK. But Bruce Lee was not impressed by how the Americans were treating him.

Even in the film: Enter the Dragon (his only starring film targeting the Western audiences), Bruce Lee portrayed as a Chinese Shaolin martial artist from Hong Kong (similar to his other films). “The finished version of the film was significantly different from the original screenplay drafts as Bruce Lee revised much of the script himself, including having written and directed the film's opening Shaolin Temple fight sequence. Lee wanted to use the film as a vehicle for expressing what he saw as the beauty of his Chinese culture, rather than it being just another action movie.” Quoted from Enter the Dragon’s article.

Bruce Lee portrayed the Chinese national pride and Chinese nationalism in his movies. As audiences, and fans of Bruce Lee from all around the world, we could easily understand what’s on his mind. Bruce Lee always felt himself as a Chinese more than anything else, and Hong Kong was his home. That was the only reason he returned to HK. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 12:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

We seem to be getting the bottom line settled, which is that the intro should not flatly refer to Lee as an American as he didn't consider himself primarily one. However, there are a couple of secondary points. The term Chinese apparently applies to Lee only ethnically, as "China" does not seem to have been part of the name of Hong Kong throughout his life. The real rub is finding out what "citizenship" came in his day with being a native of HK, which ALL of his siblings were, and he definitely was raised under the same citizenship status as they were, which was legal due to his having the same parentage as them. Our difficulty in determining that does not justify flatly calling him an American. Acknowledging his US citizenship under which he lived for about 12 years, certainly. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Most people misunderstood that all Hong Kong people were British subjects before 1997. In fact, Hong Kong people were not naturalized as British subjects, they have to apply for it. Generally, only a few amounts of people in Hong Kong (civil servants) were allowed to claim British citizen before 1997. However, some Hong Kong people applied for BNO before 1997, (for travel use only). BNO did not mean British citizens. They are not granted right to abode anywhere, including the United Kingdom and Hong Kong, through their British National (Overseas) status. Therefore, this nationality was specially "tailor-made" for the Hong Kong residents with British Dependent Territories citizen status by virtue of their connection with Hong Kong, and to let them retain an appropriate relationship with the United Kingdom.

Bruce Lee did not apply or claim for British subjects. He claimed US citizen in1959 at HK, lived in US for 12 years, but then returned to HK in 1971. A lot of people may ask: how did Bruce Lee and other Hong Kong people returned or stayed in HK? The answer is Permanent HKID (Hong Kong Citizen Identity).

There is an important thing that needs to be confirmed here. Bruce Lee’s mother, Grace Ho (何愛瑜), was only a quarter of German ancestry (or maybe less). Bruce Lee was possibly 1/8 of German ancestry? (If my math is correct). Anyway, as per the explaination above, Bruce Lee considered himself as a Chinese. Hence, we could ignored that Bruce Lee was 1/8 of German ancestry only.

Lastly, I was just wondering whether we should describe him in the introduction as: Bruce Lee was “American-born Chinese actor” or “Chinese-American actor” or just “Hong Kong actor” ?

Generally, “American-born Chinese” means a person born in the US of Chinese ethnic descent and raised in US (naturalized US citizen). In Bruce Lee’s case, he was only born in San Francisco but raised in HK (non-American citizen until he claimed in 1959 at HK).

That's incorrect. Someone of Chinese heritage born in the US and raised in the US is simply "Chinese-American". Someone born in the US but raised in China would be "American-born Chinese", which is the case with Bruce Lee. I think American-born Chinese is apt. Comatose51 (talk) 21:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

However, “Chinese-American” means American of Chinese descent, which can not be applied to Bruce Lee. Since he returned to HK for good in 1971, and he was classified as “Hong Kong people”.

Certainly, “Hong Kong actor” can not be ignored. As he gained celebrity since being a Hong Kong child actor, and became world famous from being a Hong Kong actor. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Some people considered him as a Chinese actor, but some considered him as an American actor.

Most people would recognize him as a Hong Kong actor (Included Bruce Lee himself).

Out of respect, I think we should go for the option of most people and Bruce Lee himself. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 12:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source that definitively states that Bruce Lee considered himself a citizen of Hong Kong and not an American. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 04:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Not necessary. Nobody suggested putting a flat statement to that effect in the article. What we are trying to do here is determine whether or not it is proper to flatly refer to Lee as an American in the intro, and the accumulated evidence that he did not think of himself as one is admissible to this discussion. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

You say there is "accumulated evidence" that Bruce Lee did not think of himself as an American, but all I see is conjecture and opinion. It was mentioned that Lee expressed frustration with Hollywood and his lack of starring roles, but this is not relevant to his citizenship. I could easily point out that Lee hobnobbed with some of the biggest young stars in Hollywood at the time, such as Steve McQueen (a pallbearer at his funeral), Sharon Tate, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the then unknown Chuck Norris, etc. His family was American. Many of his friends were Americans. He lived and worked in America, with American citizenship. I believe these facts speak for themselves. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 06:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Shaolin Samurai: You say: “His family was American. Many of his friends were Americans. He lived and worked in America, with American citizenship.”

Are you sure about that? I think you should learn more about Bruce Lee before you come to this discussion. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 11:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Does this really need to be broken down for you?

Linda Lee: American

Brandon Lee: American

Shannon Lee: American

I hope I needn't go on. It seems YOU are the one who should do some (very basic) research before coming into this discussion. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 16:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The word (family) is a bit tricky, what about his parents and ALL of his siblings? However, Linda, Brandon and Shannon were irrelevant to his citizenship.

You only mention the things that have happened from 1959 to 1971 and ignored everything else, then, flatly refer to Lee as an American. That was unacceptable. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

How on earth have I "ignored everything else?" I really have no clue as to what you are talking about. Nowhere have I ever said that we should ignore Bruce Lee's past as a Chinese. The fact is he was both American AND Chinese, a fact that is not accurately reflected in the wiki intro as it currently stands. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 19:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You only mention the things that have happened from 1959 to 1971. Read your own comments. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but isn't Lee's nationality something that reliable sources should be deciding rather than editors here? Basing the outcome on an argument about the nationality laws of Hong Kong, China, the US, and the UK, it sounds likely to stray into original research/synthesis territory... What do the sources generally say, and why can't we stick to whatever that is? Miremare 23:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

To get back on topic, I believe it is notable to point out that Bruce Lee is widely accepted as an Asian American and Chinese American icon in Asian American studies programs. Numerous SCHOLARLY and ACADEMIC texts reiterate the fact that Bruce Lee was an Asian American, and discuss specifics such as his role in the portrayal of Asian American men in the media and his influence on Asian American culture in general. There have been PLAYS [1] written about his impact on Asian Americans. The University of Washington, Lee's alma mater, even has a page describing him as "the first Asian American superstar." [2] If scholars, biographers, and academics can accept Lee as an American, without caveat, than so can his Wikipedia article. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 17:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Google Books link to "Chinese American Masculinities: From Fu Man Chu to Bruce Lee" [3] Shaolin Samurai (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I must say I agree. Moreover, this talk page is the only place where I've ever heard the argument that Bruce Lee was not an American. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 07:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is the only place where I've ever heard the argument that Bruce Lee was not a Hong Konger or Chinese. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 11:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Please learn to properly format your responses to make it clear which posts you are replying to. It helps keep the talk page organized. Also, it seems you are confused as to what the discussion is about: we are discussing whether or not Bruce Lee was an American, NOT whether or not he was Chinese. There is a significant difference between the two. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 16:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler could have phrased himself better, but there is no doubt in my mind that he understands the point here: "...heard the argument that Bruce Lee was not 'a Hong Konger or Chinese' [but instead an American]." Am I right, Undefeatedcooler? However, the actual dispute is whether or not to flatly refer to Lee in the intro as an American. There is a significant difference (if a more subtle one) between that and what Shaolin Samurai said it was, too. --Tbrittreid (talk) 18:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

That was exactly what I meant. The actual dispute was whether to flatly refer Lee, in the intro, as an American or not. Whether he was a Chinese or Hong Konger was completely ignored.

Nevertheless, someone is trying to ignore Lee was a Hong Konger and flatly refer to him as an American by metioning his US citizen only (but for 12 years only) and throwing British subjects in which is irrelevant. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there is any objection to referring to Lee as both an American AND a Hong Konger/Chinese in the introduction. Being an American and Chinese are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, the argument is made that Lee spend "12 years only" as an American in his adulthood but the fact remains: his wife and children were exclusively American citizens, and had his life been not cut short there is no indication that he would not have remained an American citizen the rest of his life. I'm not aware of any rule that states you must be an American citizen for X amount of years before you are truly able to be considered an American. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 19:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

"...had his life not been cut short there is no indication that he would not have remained an American citizen the rest of his life." Only in the sense (as some have argued on this page and which I do not concede) that having been born here he was a US citizen whether he wanted to be one or not. There is no indication that his move back to Hong Kong in 1971 would not have been permanent, and there is in fact a strong implication that it would have been. "I don't think there is an objection to referring to Lee as both an American AND a Hong Konger/Chinese in the introduction." Uh...what do you think I've been making here, chopped liver? Lee was a "Hong Konger" who by a more or less geographic accident of birth had US citizenship as a birthright, but one which he chose to ignore until he had reason to get out of HK, and that was far and away the simplest way to do so. After a little more than a decade of facing racism (far less than blacks had to endure here during the same period), he returned to his homeland-by-any-term-but-place-of-birth for the all too short remainder of his life. These are the facts of Lee's life, and deny flatly referring to him as an American in the intro of an encyclopedia article. Which is not to say his American citizen status should not be mentioned at all, but it must be kept in proper proportion. "An American-born Hong Konger" (if the latter term is indeed the proper one for that concept) hits the nail right on the head. --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I can somewhat appreciate your point of view but no matter what the circumstances, the fact remains that Bruce Lee held American citizenship for what was effectively the ENTIRETY OF HIS ADULT LIFE. In going back to Hong Kong to pursue a film career he did not renounce his American citizenship. You cannot dispute this. The statement "After a little more than a decade of facing racism (far less than blacks had to endure here during the same period) he returned to his homeland..." hardly seems like a "fact" but your own interpretation of Lee's life and is ultimately not relevant to the fact of his citizenship. Wikipedia is not a place for original research, just the facts. To "refer to him flatly as an American" would be factually accurate. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 22:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

As I have explained more times than I would care to count, the FACT of the matter is that it would NOT be factually accurate to flatly refer to Lee as an American. Put your idolism aside and you deal with the facts. BTW, my mentioning the racism he endured—and Linda if not Bruce himself is on the record about that—was to give the reason he returned home. --Tbrittreid (talk) 23:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do not attempt to debase my argument by falsely attributing a motive to them. I am not interested in any form of "idolism." I am only interested in making sure this article is accurate and factual. At any rate, we seem to be going around in circles since you refuse to accept the fact of Lee's American citizenship without throwing in irrelevant circumstances and stipulations. 00:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaolin Samurai (talk • contribs)

Just a response to Tbrittreid's comment above that "There is no indication that his move back to Hong Kong in 1971 would not have been permanent, and there is in fact a strong implication that it would have been." Various statements in Linda Lee's biographical The Bruce Lee Story contradict this statement, and indicate that Bruce Lee and his family had no desire to loosen their connection to the United States. For example, on page 188, Linda states about Bruce "He was happiest when he lived in the Pacific Northwest and we often talked about having a home there in the future." On page 178, one can see that Lee took full advantage of his US Citizenship shortly before his death: "Bruce's mother, Grace, came to live in the United States in the early 1970s when Bruce was able to help her enter this country because of his U.S. citizenship." Per pages 178-179, other siblings of Bruce (e.g., Robert, Phoebe, and Agnes) soon followed in making the United States their home. Far from abandoning the United States, it seems that the Lee family was only too eager to emigrate from Hong Kong to the United States. — Myasuda (talk) 13:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Tbrittreid is NOT “refuse to accept the fact of Lee's US citizenship with throwing in irrelevant circumstances and stipulations”.

We (all) were accepted Lee’s US citizenship, ALSO his native HK citizenship, and the fact he returned to Hong Kong for good in 1971. Lee gained celebrity since being a Hong Kong child actor, and became world famous from being a Hong Kong actor.

There is no question that Lee's US citizenship was secondary to his HK/Chinese status.

Shaolin Samurai is the only one seems to “refuse to accept the fact of Lee's native HK citizenship with throwing in irrelevant circumstances and stipulations” and (trying to flatly refer to him as an American by mentioning his US citizen only).

Shaolin Samurai: You say: “I don't think there is any objection to referring to Lee as both an American AND a Hong Konger/Chinese in the introduction. Being an American and Chinese are not mutually exclusive.” So, what brings you here? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, your post is rambling and incoherent and I cannot ascertain what you are trying to say. I only gather that your tone is highly accusatory and even insulting. As such, I will no longer reply to them until you say something that actually contributes to this discussion and helps us to reach a consensus. Also, don't even try to tell me I'm the only one who feels this way on this issue - just look how long this talk page is. You are only flaming and insulting. All you are doing is quoting me but not responding to my points in any meaningful way. Also, I am not "trying to flatly refer to him as an American by mentioning his US citizen only." This is completely false. I do not know if you are purposely attempting to misrepresent my position or if you are just ignorant. Please re-read my posts carefully. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Shaolin Samurai, what makes you think that my post is rambling and incoherent? And I am not highly accusatory and not even insulting you. My point is: As we all (included you) don't think there is any objection to referring to Lee as both an American AND a Hong Konger/Chinese in the introduction. Why did you say: “To refer to him flatly as an American would be factually accurate” ? (but now, you seems to deny that trying to flatly refer to him as an American). You always change your mind.

This discussion already reached a consensus. There is NO objection to referring to Lee as both an American AND a Hong Konger/Chinese. And everyone was satisfied with the intro “American-born Chinese Hong Kong actor” as it currently stands. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 18:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Provide a reliable source that clearly states Lee was "an American-born Chinese Hong Kong actor." Otherwise, you are engaging in original research. Stick to the sources. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Provide a reliable source that clearly states Lee was "Asian American but not an American-born Chinese Hong Konger." (apart from the internet, which can be edited by anyone), you are engaging in original research too. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 19:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

This is silly. It is clear you have not bothered to review the sources provided, and are only interested in pushing your own opinionated agenda. If you revert the page again I am reporting you for violating the three revert rule. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 20:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

What sources provided? He was only listed in the Asian American recently. (that was not the source). Everyone was satisfied with the intro “American-born Chinese Hong Kong actor” as it stands for long. It seems that you are the one interested in pushing your own opinionated. If you revert the page again I am the one reporting you for violating the three revert rule. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 02:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

It’s more suitable for Lee to be list in Chinese American rather than "Asian American". I don’t know why the editors removed him from Chinese American and replaced him in Asian American.

The intro "Chinese American and Hong Kong actor" would be the best outcome. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 04:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

By Title 8, Section 1401 of the US Code, Bruce Lee was a "citizen of the United States at birth" as opposed to being "born stateless but with the right to obtain US citizenship at a later date." This meant that Bruce had US citizenship for his entire life since the day he was born. Because China never allowed multiple citizenship, he could not have had Chinese citizenship without relinquishing his American one. And because Hong Kong is and was never an independent and sovereign country, the idea of Hong Kong "citizenship" does not exist in the common definition of the word - the HKID card only offers permanent residence and not citizenship, just as people with Green Cards are not Americans. It's still acceptable to call him a Hong Konger, since this term does not imply citizenship, but claiming that he has "HK citizenship" is misleading.

Going back to the opening sentence, the widely accepted definition of "American" is a person with US citizenship. As a consequence of this definition, one is either American, or one is not. There is no in between or varying degrees of being American. Living abroad or being predominantly ethncially Chinese does not make him any less American (because the only way he can be less American is to not be American at all). JFK isn't described as an "Irish American" in the opening sentence, nor is Jennifer Aniston described as a "Greek American." Some people feel the need to label him as a "Chinese American" because it's drilled in their heads that the only "true" Americans are White (Bruce was part White by the way). This article should stick to facts based on accepted and objective definitions of nationality, rather than people's personal opinions of what they consider him to be. Aplafic (talk) 18:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Aplafic: Bruce Lee was a "citizen of the United States at birth" as opposed to being "born stateless but with the right to obtain US citizenship at a later date." This means that Bruce had US citizenship for his entire life since the day he was born.

Only from the perspective of American law, which is a technicality and not important here, as his parents were natives of Hong Kong and raised him as one—whatever citizenship that might have worked out to in Lee's day—which was just as much his birthright through his parentage as the US citizenship was through the location of his birth. His citizenship through HIS perspective is the one that counts. As I posted back on 12 April, American citizenship was as much Winston Churchill's birthright as it was Lee's, but he CHOSE not to take it, while Bruce did, if temporarily (Myasuda's quotes from Linda's book about Bruce published not long at all after his death are, because of that timing, highly biased and untrustworthy; she was trying to sell that book to an American publisher, if she was not contracted by one to write it in the first place; is there other evidence for the alleged moves of his mother and siblings to the US?). Churchill destroys your position, Aplafic, as he proves that there are varying degrees of being an American, when multiple citizenships-by-birthright are part of the picture, as they are here. --Tbrittreid (talk) 23:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

More incorrect statements from Tbrittreid. The book was published in 1989. Why did you lie about this, and where is your source for impugning Linda Lee's book and her honesty? Or is this simply your POV? The fact that several members of the Lee family emigrated to the United States is well known. Besides Linda's book, Bruce Thomas' book "Fighting Spirit" mentions Grace Lee as living in Monterey Park, California. Also, some quick searches bring up [4] and [5] showing Grace, Robert, and Phoebe as residing in the United States. — Myasuda (talk) 00:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I did some additional re-reading of

• Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications. ISBN 0897501217.

and found some rather definitive quotes regarding Lee's plans regarding future residence. On 146, Linda writes "He had visions of leaving Hong Kong and returning to the United States where he could truly carry out his dreams of being an international star and provide better living conditions and educational opportunities for his children." And on page 154, Linda writes (regarding the point in time about three months prior to Bruce's death) "It was about this time that Bruce decided that we would return to live in the United States where life was easier and there were more opportunities. He would return perhaps twice a year to Hong Kong to make a picture because there he would be afforded the added control and freedom necessary to pursue specialized film projects." This should close the book on Lee's state of mind on this topic. — Myasuda (talk) 05:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Tbrittreid you question the validity of the sources provided but have not managed to produce any supporting your viewpoint. Need I remind you that Wikipedia is not a place for original research or your own personal theories. The golden rule of Wikipedia is sources and verifiability. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 04:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

According to Aplafic’s definition of "American" and in comparison with JKF and Jennifer Aniston, that is irrelevant. There is a significant difference between them. JFK and Jennifer Aniston were raised in US, educated in US only, lived and worked in US only, and were only US citizens. (whereas Bruce Lee was not the same).

There is a significant difference between American ethnicity, European Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans and others etc…….

Take a look at Steve Vai, Vai is in the same case as Jennifer Aniston, but Vai's widely referred as an Italian American in the intro. (He is white too, so not only "true" Americans are White).

Take a look at Kevin Cheng, Cheng is in the same case as Bruce Lee, but Cheng is flatly referred as Hong Konger in the intro.

Why? Because Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia. It is widely accepted by everyone, with commonsense and facts. Not personal theories and (dead sources).

You guys don’t understand the term Hong Kong people. (Because someone tried to remove it from the intro). Hong Kong people means Hong Kong permanent residents with HKID. Anyone can be Hong Konger (not only Chinese), as long as they were Hong Kong permanent residents and have claimed HKID. (Whether HKID is a citizenship or not isn’t matter, since they only need the HKID to be classified as Hong Konger). “The city's population is 95% Chinese and 5% people of other ethnicities” (see Hong Kong). Bruce’s father Lee Hoi-chuen was a FULL Chinese, his mother Grace Ho (何愛瑜) was 3/4 Chinese and 1/4 German. Bruce Lee was definitely a Chinese Hong Konger.

“Bruce Lee gained celebrity since being a Hong Kong child actor, and became world famous from being a Hong Kong actor”. These are the facts, and it is necessary to mention Hong Kong actor in the intro. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 14:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that "Hong Kong" should definitely be there in the intro for obvious reasons despite "Hong Konger" not being a proper nationality. He may be culturally less "American" than most Americans, but as far as nationality is concerned, he was American (and just that) and that should be mentioned there too. The description "American-born Hong Kong actor, martial artist..." sums it up nicely IMO. Aplafic (talk) 17:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The only book by Linda about Bruce that I am aware of—and I searched Amazon.com when someone claimed a later date for it and that it included flat claims that Warner Bros. stole Bruce's TV series concept titled The Warrior and turned it into Kung Fu—was published in 1975. No lie on my part. That earlier person, BTW, did not cite a different title as you have; the one I know of was Bruce Lee, The Man Only I Knew.

Another statement by Aplafic: "He [Bruce Lee] was an American (and just that)...." If by "just" you mean "only", i.e., no other citizenship, it has been repeatedly explained here that he had the exact same citizenship that his parents and siblings had as Hong Kong natives (whatever the hell that might have been, unless someone wants to suggest that such people had NO citizenship of any kind). Therefore Aplafic cannot possibly believe that at this stage of this discussion, and unless by the word "just" he/she mean something other than "only" that I cannot conceive, he/she is lying.

As for Myasuda's "The fact that several members of the Lee family emigrated to the United States is well known," it is not known at all to me, and I have been a fan of Bruce Lee since the original 1966-1967 run of The Green Hornet. If they have, I'm certain it was because they did not want to live in the People's Republic of China, which took control of HK in 1997, and proves nothing about Bruce's preference between his two citizenships.

Bottom line — The fact of the matter is that while Lee had American citizenship by virtue of happening to be born in the USA, he/his parents completely ignored it until he reached his maturity and had need to get out of Hong Kong. It is therefore inappropriate to flatly refer to him as an American in the intro of an encyclopedia article (that's a crucial aspect of this dispute). Furthermore note that, since in Lee's case "Chinese" refers only to his ethnicity rather than nationality, the term "Chinese American" makes no allusion whatsoever to his multiple citizenship status and the use of it constitutes calling him an American and nothing else nationality-wise, which like it or not is inaccurate. He grew up a citizen of whatever a native of Hong Kong was a citizen of in his day, and claimed American (like it or not, the term is appropriate here, just as Winston Churchill chose not to claim the American citizenship that was also his birthright) upon reaching his maturity. The HK-based citizenship came first and last (you can bet that when he went back to Hong Kong he did not get the visa, etc., that anybody who was only an American citizen would have had to do to go there) in his life. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

You claim that you performed an Amazon.com search. It must have been a very poor search on your part since here it is [6]. I gave the title and author, so I can't see how you could possibly have made a mistake. Furthermore, anyone familiar with this article would have seen that The Bruce Lee Story (the "authorized biography") is one of very few entries in the Reference section. And since his siblings that came to the United States arrived in the 1970s or before, your claim that they came due to 1997 concerns (more unsupported POV on your part) is without merit. — Myasuda (talk) 22:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

He may have been a British Overseas Territories citizen (the citizenship many Hong Kong people had unitl 1997) as well, but this is speculation and I welcome you to verify this. I have not come across a reliable source that makes this claim - every source I've looked at flatly refers to his nationality as American, which by American law, he possessed since birth. Aplafic (talk) 05:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

“He may have been a British Overseas Territories citizen (the citizenship many Hong Kong people had until 1997)” That's incorrect.

Hong Kong Certificate of Identity is the citizenship many Hong Kong people had until 1997. He possessed from his native Hong Kong parents with his returned to Hong Kong. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 14:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

First off, read the Wikipedia article on the Hong Kong Certificate of Identity. It's not a form of citizenship, but merely a travel document for "Hong Kong permanent residents who did not hold and could not obtain any valid travel documents for overseas travel". This isn't the kind of thing you get from birth.

If Bruce Lee did in fact possess an additional citizenship to American (so far no one has provided a reliable source that verifies this), it most definitely was British (derived from his parents) - namely, the British Overseas Territories citizenship, since Hong Kong was a British Overseas Territory. Again, this information isn't hard to find. Aplafic (talk) 15:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The Hong Kong Certificate of Identity was a formal travel document and passport, issued by the Hong Kong Government's Immigration Department until June 30, 1997.

Again, I have said before. NOT ALL Hong Kong people have actually claimed BDTCs or BNOs. (at least my parents didn’t). I am certain about it, because they only had HKCIs but not BDTCs/BNOs in the old days. Richard Lee 9 (talk) 16:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

This discussion isn't particularly relevant. I think we all can agree that "Hong Kong" should be in the opening sentence. Aplafic (talk) 17:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Aplafic: He may have been a British Overseas Territories citizen (the citizenship many Hong Kong people had until 1997) as well, but this is speculation and I welcome you to verify this. Putting aside the question of whether or not that is the citizenship natives of Hong Kong had within Lee's life span and is therefore the other citizenship he held, I don't have to verify such because I am not trying to put a statement to that explicit effect in the article, merely trying to get you to admit to the reality of Lee's situation and let the article not contain an inaccurate statement otherwise. You continue: I have not come across a reliable source that makes this claim - every source I've looked at flatly refers to his nationality as American, which by American law, he possesed since birth. So did Winston Churchill, as I have said twice, but that does not justify flatly calling him an American. "By American law" is a legal technicality and here we're dealing with real-world practice. I literally do not believe that there are no reliable sources that fail to flatly refer to Lee as an American, partly because those that do are wrong, partly because I've seen many that don't go into his citizenship. In fact, many reliable sources DO state that he grew up in Hong Kong and made use of his American citizenship only after reaching legal adulthood. Furthermore, ANY sources that do flatly refer to him as an American and deny him any other citizenship (not that I believe that any go that far) are unreliable because in addition to his American citizenship he had the same citizenship that his parents had by virtue of being their natural and legal offspring, and it was that citizenship under which he grew up, alongside his siblings, who had no other. The fact that we can't get anything remotely resembling an agreement as to just what that citizenship was doesn't change the fact that he damned well held it, and was raised that way, not as an American. The only thing that could change that fact would be documentation that Hong Kong natives in those days had no citizenship of any kind, which you will find convincing me of a very difficult job. The specification of "British Overseas Territories citizenship" might have been speculation, but that was your statement not mine, and he did have the same (as yet unidentified) citizenship as his parents and siblings. That is as legally automatic (and therefore requiring no further verification/documentation) as the fact that he was born in the USA conferred US citizenship upon him is. The fact that Lee had been born (well) outside Hong Kong was ignored by the family and him, until he had reason to leave Hong Kong (not to go to America specifically, but just to get out of HK). Once again, this debate is not simply about Lee's nationality, but whether or not he should be flatly referred to as an American in the introductory passage of an encyclopedia. The mere fact of multiple citizenships, let alone the fact that his heritage and upbringing was the other one, argues against doing that. Now cease the cranial-rectal-insertion and get a grip on reality, Aplafic. I am getting tired of repeating myself because you ignore what I've said (particularly the Churchill precedent), and that because you can't defend your position against it.--Tbrittreid (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Quote Tbrittreid (talk):"Furthermore, ANY sources that do flatly refer to him as an American and deny him any other citizenship (not that I believe that any go that far) are unreliable because in addition to his American citizenship he had the same citizenship that his parents had by virtue of being their natural and legal offspring, and it was that citizenship under which he grew up, alongside his siblings, who had no other."

I love how this effectively amounts to "Any sources which disagree with my POV are unreliable." I guess a respected publisher like Routledge and the University of Washington do not meet Tbrittreid's personal standards as "reliable sources." -- Shaolin Samurai (talk) 03:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Tbrittreid: "... in addition to his American citizenship he had the same citizenship that his parents had"

I'm going to stray away from discussion of nationality laws beacuse that's not what's important. I remind you that Wikipedia is a tertiary source that does not publish original research or original thought. If he did possess an additional citizenship, this needs to be verified by a reliable source, as per WP:V. Failing that, we are to assume that American was his only nationality, for that is the information that reliable sources (such as the ones Shaolin Samurai listed below) have provided us. -- Aplafic (talk) 08:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I can see there are arguments on both sides, and both sides seem to be sticking emphatically to their own. But at the risk of repeating myself, Lee's nationality isn't something that Wikipedia can decide. Arguing about laws is useless - verifiability not truth. There must have been a lot written about the man, so what is the general concensus amongst sources regarding his nationality, and can we have some relevant citations listed here for all to see please? Cheers, Miremare 00:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Posting these yet again for all to see. I believe the sources speak for themselves. No "cherry picking" at work here as I struggled to find any sources that stated he should not be considered an American.

Chan, Jachinson (2001). Chinese American Masculinities: From Fu Manchu to Bruce Lee. Routledge . p. 196. ISBN 081534029X. (google books preview link [7])

University of Washington 100 Alumni of the Century - Alumni from J through O

Asia Pacific Arts, UCLA Asia Institute Choppy Water

AsianWeek - The Voice of Asian America Chinese American Hero: Bruce Lee

US Asians BRUCE LEE A Legend that Never Dies! -- Shaolin Samurai (talk) 03:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Those (American sources) that provided by Shaolin Samurai were only referred him as Chinese American or Asian American, (Not flatly refer to him as an American). Although I strongly believed books and articles were not sources, since that was only the author’s opinionated.

If you look at the (Chinese sources), I can bet that they were all flatly referred him as Chinese. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 11:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

So those sources refer to Lee as "Asian-American" (3) and "Chinese-American" (2). Undefeatedcooler, please consider that, this being the English language version of Wikipedia, sources in English are preferred (see WP:NONENG). However, if you have issues with the reliability of any of the sources above (rather than the views expressed by them), then I'm sure that can also be discussed. Please also consider posting a list of sources that support your side of the argument. Cheers, Miremare 17:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Bruce Lee's possession of the same citizenship as his parents by way of being their legal and natural offspring is as legally automatic and as not needing verification as his American citizenship by way of happening to have been born in the USA is. PERIOD. The only aspect of that requiring verification is just what Mr. and Mrs. Lee's citizenship was (if it needed to be specified, which it does not), but NOT the fact that Bruce "inherited" it from them. Any source that says his only citizenship was American is wrong and blatantly so, but you have cited NONE that actually and categorically deny him another one; they all appear to be lists, not descriptive text, which is quite limiting to verbage. Those referring to him as Chinese-American and Asian-American do so because he did invoke American citizenship (which I do not deny was his birthright) and live as such for most of his adulthood, and, again, out of being lists they are less than definitive statements. It is not wrong to put him in those two categories, but doing so does not constitute a statement that he had no citizenship other than American. Relevant to posting those sources Shaolin Samurai wrote, I struggled to find any sources that stated that he should not be considered an American. That's not the point here, SS, but whether or not he should be flatly referred to in the intro as an American and nothing else. Nobody here claims that he should not be considered an American at all.

Shaolin Samurai also wrote about something I said and just reiterated in different words to the same effect: I love how this effectively amounts to "Any sources which disagree with my POV are unreliable." No it doesn't; it means, "Any sources which disagree with easily known factual reality are unreliable." Remember, Wikipedia regulations have nothing whatsoever to do with those sources. There are many precedents across the encyclopedia where strict enforcement of these regs has fallen to common sense and common knowledge, and since (I repeat from just above and now further clarify) the point here is whether Lee should be flatly referred to as an American or should the fact that he was raised in Hong Kong under his parental heritage/citizenship be acknowledged (however vaguely) in the intro of this article, this should be one of them. --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter. Stop all the original research and cherry-picking. Grab any major English-language biography of Mr Lee and put what it says, with a citation. End of story. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 03:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It does matter, since Mr Lee’s life was raised and ended in HK. The (American version) English-language biography of Lee may not be accurate. Unless you don’t care about the (English language version) Wikipedia of Bruce Lee, and try to lie about it.

By the way, the English language version of Wikipedia is for English language readers (Not only for American readers). Undefeatedcooler (talk) 11:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

OrangeDog is right. If no reliable sources (and surely at least one actual biography would mention it) say that he had a particular citizenship then we can't put it in the article. Tbrittreid, saying that this is something that doesn't need citation would be OK if it were not controversial, but this clearly is. There's not going to be consensus to include it uncited, so please, anyone with sources that would allow the inclusion, post them here. Miremare 14:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

What we needed, are the facts and commonsense, NOT unreliable sources. I believe the facts speak for themselves, NOT the unreliable sources speak for themselves.

The question: When Bruce Lee went back to Hong Kong in 1941 (3 months old), stayed for 18 years, also in 1971 —stayed— How did he do it? Richard Lee 9 (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

To answer the first part of Richard Lee 9's extremely intelligent question (I thought about and dealt with the latter trip back to HK earlier, albeit logically), by definition of the circumstances at 3 months old he went back on his parents' documents and their citizenship. Otherwise (i.e., travelling with only American citizenship, which is what you people insist on believing here would require), he would have needed a visa, passport, whatever. Come to think of it, that would also require him to have grown up with some form of "resident alien" status!

Miremare posted: ...saying this is something that doesn't need citation would be OK if it were not controversial, but this clearly is. There's not going to be consensus to include it uncited.... The only reason that the fact of Lee's citizenship from his parentage on top of his US citizenship from the location of his birth is "controversial" is because too many people here want to believe something else, and are committing cranial-rectal-insertion to do so. I anxiously await for tomorrow to see the responses to Richard's crucial-to-our-dispute question and to my absolutely irrefutable answer to the first prong of it. --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Again more silly arguing. Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco, thus he is an American citizen. Depending on what year (historically, the laws have changed in America as well as with other countries) you can legally you can hold citizenship in multiple countries depending on circumstance. His parents were from Hong Kong, a British colony at the time. He was born in America. Because he was a minor, this meant that he held at least dual citizenship. If he wished and applied at the British Embassy, he would of legally relocated to other Britsh colonies as well as the U.K. Some international agreements between various countries may require that a person in such a situation declare citizenship to only one country once that person turns 18, while others do not, as well as depending on their year of birth.

Being Chinese-American is a cultural identity. It isn't a specific term to describe mixed ethnicity or multi nationality. People are ignorant, and do not understand the meaning and proper use of the term Chinese-American. It means that you are part of a group of people who have both Chinese and American cultural practices and upbringing. For example, you can be African-American and Caucasian. You might ask how is this possible? If you were Afrikaner or Boer and was born and raised in Southern Africa (they are mainly of northwestern European descent (mostly Dutch, German and French ancestry), and your grandparents were, as you parents were, then later you moved to America when you were 18 and became a citizen. You would technically be African-American. Another example, if your parents were from Nigeria, settled in Mexico and you were born and raised there. Then you moved to America and became a citizen. You would be technically Mexican-American, since most likely you would be speaking Spanish, celebrating Mexican holidays, eating Mexican foods, as well as doing all the cultural things American's do, like celebrating the 4th of July. Huo Xin (talk) 06:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

This is kind of misleading.

As I have said/explained before, even back to the British colony time, Hong Kong people can not apply for British citizen. Yes, Bruce Lee held at least dual citizenship, but definitely not British.

Chinese Americans are Americans of Chinese descent. Chinese Americans constitute one group of Overseas Chinese and also a subgroup of East Asian Americans, which is further a subgroup of Asian Americans. Within this community, the term Chinese American is often broadly defined to include not only immigrants from mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and their descendants but also immigrants and descendants of Overseas Chinese people who migrated to the United States from places as diverse as Singapore, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Burma, and the Philippines.

Being cultural identity is one part of it. Same as Japanese Americans, Korean Americans etc……

Another question: A white American guy who accidentally born in HK, raised in USA, he got into trouble in USA so he moved to HK, received higher education and married a Chinese Woman, he finally returned back to USA. He is Chinese or American? Richard Lee 9 (talk) 12:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

2009

Uncanny Ability

I don't have access to edit this article. Can somebody fix the typo of exercycle in the passage "...he would run three miles and then ride on his exercylce for fifteen miles." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenhiker (talk • contribs) 22:56, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Cannabis in death

Anonymous IP 76.75.84.94 removed all mention of cannabis from the section on Bruce's death at 22:52 on 6 September. Since it is still there, I have to ask: Is there some good reason for this, or is it vandalism that should be reversed? --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the aforementioned edits, but several scientific studies have concluded that the human LD₅₀ of tetrahydrocannabinol is virtually intangible by means of cannabis inhalation or oral consumption. If any claims are made about cannabis toxicity in this article, they should undoubtedly be presented in the form of a direct quotation.   — C M B J   23:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction

At first, the article states that Lee suffered from cerebral edema on 1973-05-10, and that the "same symptoms that occurred in his first collapse were later repeated on the day of his death". Shortly after, the article goes on to explain that on 1973-07-20, Lee "complained of a headache", was given an equagesic by Ting, and then died of cerebral edema. Either this means that there is an unstated assumption that Lee was consuming equagesic for months prior to his death, or that there is no logical basis to wholly attribute his cause of death (cerebral edema) to equagesic.   — C M B J   23:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Controversy over Jeet Kune Do

The article contains a section titled: "Controversy over Jeet Kune Do"

"'The name "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" was legally trademarked and the rights to Bruce Lee's name, likeness, Jeet Kune Do emblem and personal martial arts legacy (including personal photos and countless personal effects and memorabilia) were given solely to the Lee estate for copyrighted commercial use. The name is made up of two parts: 'Jun Fan' (Lee's Chinese given name) and 'Jeet Kune Do' (the Way of the Intercepting Fist).'"

This don't seem to show any controversy, or indeed any reason why the content of the section is controversial?  Doktor  Wilhelm  17:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

His brother

There could be some edit warring taking place on this issue. If the information in the Robert Lee (musician) article is accurate then is would be legitimate to mention this somewhere here. If it is not accurate then we have some bigger problems. PatGallacher (talk) 18:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I am one of the editors actually reverting this information. It seems that article doesnt have that many reliable sources? --Scythre^Talk_Contribs 16:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe so, but if you suspect that the article on his brother is a hoax then you should raise it there instead of here. PatGallacher (talk) 17:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I have had a quick look at the article and it looks reasonably well sourced, doesn't look like a hoax, see one source.[8] PatGallacher (talk) 17:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I never suspected it was a hoax, just that it didnt have that many reliable sources. Feel free to add the information in. --Scythre^Talk_Contribs 18:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Too long

This page is in desperate need of archiving. I am experienced in archiving if anyone want me to do it? --Scythre^Talk_Contribs 16:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

yes please—Preceding unsigned comment added by Notedgrant (talk • contribs)

minor grammatical correction

Under "Death" there's a sentence that read... " Dr. Don Langford, who was Lee's personal physician in Hong Kong and had treated Lee during his first collapse He also believed that "Equagesic was not at all involved in Bruce's first collapse."[86] " I added a comma after "collapse" and deleted "He" so it read as a complete sentence rather than a runon. ~Luke W.

Clean up of article

There is too much redundancy in the article. I have attempted to clean it up by making the events chronological. The article also needs to have more references put in as well as presented in a neutral fashion. This article is not a place to advertise your name or kwoon through some relationship with Bruce Lee. I will remove such attempts. The level of prose is inconsistent as well as disorganized. The article should be written at the same intellectual level of a newspaper article - any 6th grader should be able to read and understand what is written. Huo Xin (talk) 23:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Clean up tag added

I added the clean up tag to the top of the article. I've reorganized it so that it is more chronological and historic and edited content so that it reads better. Huo Xin (talk) 23:50, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Tae Kwon Do

I would like to put this in:

According to the Tae Kwon Do Grandmaster Jhoon Goo Rhee, Lee learned kick techniques from him and he learned how to punch from Lee: "Bruce Lee did not know how to kick. He had some hand skills but his kicking could not compete against Taekwondo. He first saw me jump 8 feet and break 3 boards. We became friends after that. I learned hand techniques from him, and taught him kicks. He gained his fame through kicks."

Someone said that YouTube is not a reliable source and pulled this info out. The fact that Jhoon Rhee actually said that Lee learned how to kick from him is right on the Video (he is being interviewed). So unless he is a fake, there is no question that at least Jhun Rhee *claimed* that Lee learned how to kick from him. --Tonsdon (talk) 20:40, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The issue is that I could make a video and claim Lee learned how to kick from me. The problem is I was born in 1969 so there's no way it's real... but I can say it on YouTube because there's no editorial oversight. The fact hat someone claims something isn't what we're after. We'd like to come close to presenting facts. With no editorial oversight there's nothing to back this claim and it's no good as a fact. Padillah (talk) 21:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Why would Rhee lie for? Since he's a credible figure, not some random person like you, he's words are pertinent, and in all probability, he is NOT lying. --Tonsdon (talk) 23:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

You said it yourself "in all probability", in other words - you can't be certain. Please understand, I am not trying to prove that particular YouTube clip is factual or not. I'm merely pointing out that without editorial oversight, the question of veracity remains. Or, you are forcing the reader to make the same assumption you have made, that "in all probability" some statement is factual. Only now you've put the weight of Wikipedia behind that assumption so it's a lot more like an assertion. It's this ability to get swept away that limits our use of reliable sources to ones that will accept responsibility for the factual content of their statements. Padillah (talk) 13:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The following might be more appropriate as a reference (if suitably qualified): Nilsson, Thomas (1996). "With Bruce Lee: Taekwondo Pioneer Jhoon Rhee Recounts His 10-Year Friendship With the "Dragon"". Black Belt Magazine. Vol. 34, no. 5. pp. 39–43. Retrieved 2009-11-19. {{cite magazine}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) — Myasuda (talk) 02:33, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Perfect example, thank you. A magazine such as this, with an established editorial oversight, would not publish something it had not fact-checked. Or it would make sure that what it did publish was presented with sufficient disclaimer that readers were allowed to make up there own minds. So, always assuming that the article does present the Taekwondo anecdote we can incorporate it into the article in whatever manner it is given to us in the magazine. Nice find. Padillah (talk) 13:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I would like to add this but I don't know where to put it: Jhoon Rhee taught Lee the side kick in detail, and Lee taught Rhee the "non-telegraphic" punch. --Tonsdon (talk) 00:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I did not start the Bruce Lee wiki, but I redid the ENTIRE structure of the page and cleaned up much of it to what is is now. I believe that everyone can appreciate all contributions but if you wish to add your information to the article, it needs to be verifiable - preferably in print (book or magazine) by a neutral source. Jhoon Rhee was friends with Bruce Lee, no doubt about that but to what degree in training is unknown. Huo Xin (talk) 06:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Years Active?

Years active 1941–1973

I really don't understand what that means. Is it his acting career or his martial arts training? Also is 1941 a little early or is that just me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.233.125 (talk) 05:47, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, after a little research, i concluded that the years active is is acting career. He had his first role as a baby.74.109.233.125 (talk) 06:46, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

disambiguation

Per WP:DLINKS I feel it is important to add a hatnote so that people who are looking for the British arsonist can be guided to the right article. This is fairly standard across most articles. Main subject does not have to be related to the other same-name people to have the dismabig. Only experienced Wikipedians understand the parentheses system; it is silly to believe that people will just naturally think of (arsonist) if they want to look up more information about Bruce Lee (arsonist). hbdragon88 (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Bruce Lee was of german ancestry

Tedious overdrawn and unconstructive discussion about a non-issue.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
His mother was a half german. Why does noboby note that? He must be drescribed as a Asian-German-American actor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.78.136.243 (talk) 13:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC) Lee's mother's ethnicity was mentioned in Bruce_Lee#Early_life, albeit incorrectly. I've gone ahead and fixed it. — Myasuda (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2009 (UTC) Apparently, his mother was only a quarter of German ancestry, not half. Bruce Lee was only 1/8 of German ancestry. Therefore, your information was incorrect. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC) It is not my information. It's present in numerous reliable sources. For example, if we simply look at some of the references in the References section, we have see it at: Lee, Linda (1989), The Bruce Lee Story, United States: Ohara Publications, p. 20, ISBN 0897501217 Thomas, Bruce (1994), Bruce Lee: Fighting Spirit : a Biography, Berkeley, California: Frog, Ltd., p. 3, ISBN 1-883319-25-0 In other words, it is your information that is incorrect. — Myasuda (talk) 16:16, 21 December 2009 (UTC) These sources were not stated his mother was a half German. In fact, the so-called reliable source (in the Notes section) was completely wrong. Grace Ho’s father was not German, only her grandmother was German, indeed. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 09:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC) In spite of having page numbers provided to you above for these standard sources, you erroneously claim they don't state his mother was half German. If you don't have the books physically available to you, then just look up the relevant passages at Google Books. You might actually learn something. — Myasuda (talk) 12:35, 22 December 2009 (UTC) Myasuda, could you tell me which part of Grace Ho’s family was German? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 04:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC) Please take a look at (for example) Bruce Thomas' Fighting Spirit (click on the link and scroll to page 3). You'll see that this reference states that Grace's German ancestry is paternal. — Myasuda (talk) 16:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC) This book is untruth. Grace Ho belonged to one of wealthiest and most powerful clans in Hong Kong, the Ho Tungs. She was the niece of Sir Robert Ho Tung, patriarch of the clan. Her family name was Ho, her father couldn’t be German. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 10:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC) First of all, Bruce Thomas' statement is not irreconcilable with any of this (though it does make one want to know more about the associated history). Second of all, you're continuing to make unsourced statements which is something you'll need to avoid if you want to edit wikipedia articles. Third, the main point of this discussion regards Grace Lee's ancestry, which is established as half Chinese and half German in reliable sources including that of Linda Lee . . . and it is rather doubtful that she would get her mother-in-law's parentage wrong. — Myasuda (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC) The fact is……..Grace Ho’s father was Ho Kom Tong, there were lots of reliable sources about it. (books, articles, internet, etc......) You should do some research before editing on Wikipedia. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC) I'd like to know how a book by a well known and respected Biographer and another book by the subjects own spouse don't qualify as research? Please keep your comments about the edits, not the editors. Do you have any ciations stating differently than the above books? please let us see them and we can discuss how to present this information. But please, let's keep the discussion about the information only. Padillah (talk) 18:25, 24 December 2009 (UTC) A well known and respected Biographer or Publisher could make mistakes. Linda’s book not stated Grace Ho’s father was German. There were plenty of reliable sources have stated Grace Ho’s father was Ho Kom Tong: Billdoll , Casino News Media etc…. Also other articles (Robert Ho, Stanley Ho) had been stated Ho Kom Tong was Grace Ho's father and Bruce Lee's grandfather. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 04:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC) None of this addresses your original claim that "Bruce Lee was only 1/8 of German ancestry", so I assume you're conceding you were wrong on this point. — Myasuda (talk) 12:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC) Bruce Lee possibly not 1/8 of German ancestry but surely less than a quarter, as his mother wasn’t half German. I suggest you to revert your edits, otherwise you were providing wrong information to this article. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 15:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC) The entire purpose of Wikipedia is compiling information taken from other sources. Sources. Until we have sources that concretely settle this contentious issue, the article stands behind the sources that have already been provided.Shaolin Samurai (talk) 18:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC) But the sources were incorrect. Please bear in mind that Wikipedia is compiling facts and true information with accurate sources. If something that is uncertain, don’t put it on Wikipedia. The word “partly” simply explained everything. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC) Yes, it looks like we have conflicting sources and until we find something that breaks the conflict we are going to have to equivocate. I'm forced to ask, how important is the discrete delineation of Lee's lineage? It seems to me like something he would be very upset with. Everything I know about him he identified as Chinese-American. Even went to great lengths to introduce America to his Chinese culture. And how far back are we supposed to go? I'm sure his grandfather wasn't pure German, maybe he was half something else? It just gets silly after a while. Padillah (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC) I don't have a major problem with dropping the precise ratio. However, the characterization of the information in the Thomas and Linda Lee sources as "incorrect" by Undefeatedcooler (talk · contribs) (both above and in the edit summaries) is pretentious. The sources provided by Undefeatedcooler (from http://www.billdoll.com and http://www.casinonewsmedia.com) clearly do not meet the WP:RELIABLE standard and to treat them as even remotely equivalent in terms of reliability (e.g., when speaking of "conflicting sources" above) is misleading. If Undefeatedcooler is incapable of providing more reliable sources, then his claims and assertions should not be given much credence. — Myasuda (talk) 16:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC) Myasuda, your sources were not 100% reliable sources (at least not the part on Bruce’s mother), as the fact has been proven, Grace’s father wasn't pure German. End of discussion. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 17:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC) If he is of German ancestry, it certainly does not belong in the lead as it has very little to do with him being notable.--Misortie (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2009 (UTC) "Proven"? What proof have you (Undefeatedcooler (talk · contribs)) provided? Are "The Billion Dollar Site" and "Casino News Media" sources your proof? I think nearly everyone would agree that Bruce Lee's wife is more reliable than the sites you provided. You've proved nothing other than your inability to provide a single reliable source for your claims. — Myasuda (talk) 18:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC) In point of fact Undefeatedcooler, those articles don't cite the assertion either. (I've noted this in each article) And, ad homenim attacks aside, Mysuda is correct in stating that neither of the sites you mentioned would pass a reliable source test. And I absolutely agree with Mistortie that it does not belong in the lead. It is barely mentionable in the first place, much less to be put forward in the lead. I'd rather the whole thing be dropped altogether. Padillah (talk) 20:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC) Those are not the reliable sources I would like to put up on this article. Those are just some of the methods to find out the fact that Grace Ho’s father was Ho Kom Tong. Again, Linda had never stated that Grace’s father was German. Look up Ho’s family pedigree. Grace Ho was the niece of Robert Ho, her father was Ho Kom Tong, her family name was “Ho”. No doubt about it. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC) I appreciate your argument but my last name is Padilla, that doesn't make me related to Jose Padilla nor does it make me related to Vincente the pitcher, the President of Bolivia, or the spider so we are going to need other citations than simply a family name. You can't possibly expect us to believe there are no other Ho in the entirety of Chinese culture. Also, at this point I want to encourage Myasuda to drop the assertion that it was Grace Ho's father that was German. While the one book does say that, Linda Lee's book does not explicitly mention so we should leave it at "German ancestry" until we can find suitable sources. Padillah (talk) 14:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC) For the record, if you'll review the previous postings, you'll note that I never "asserted" that Grace's father was German. I was careful to indicate only that a reliable source stated that Grace's father was German. This is an important distinction, from the standpoint of wikipedia. Furthermore, I never made this a main talking point in this discussion. I only made mention of it in response to a direct query from User:Undefeatedcooler (December 23, 2009). User:Undefeatedcooler is the one who raised this issue and its visibility, even though he had no evidence to back up his claims. So please be more careful and don't misrepresent my position and my priorities in this matter. The one issue I have been focused on, and the one that began this debate was the sourced change I made regarding Grace Lee being half Chinese and half German, which is supported by both references that I provided (December 21, 2009). — Myasuda (talk) 17:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC) And it's also an important distinction between fact and assertion. I never said you made the assertion, only that you supported it. Which, according to your posting on 16:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC), you do. I also never insinuated that you were the one making this a sticking point. I have only asked the general populous to agree on a consensus. Someone as well versed in Wikipedia as you must surely appreciate the need for consensus. So, please be more careful and don't misrepresent my position. Let's all try and keep this about the edits, not the editor. Padillah (talk) 18:24, 29 December 2009 (UTC) Thanks Padillah for being impartial. I personally don't think the discrete delineation of Lee's lineage is important, but Myasuda tried to assert that Grace Ho was half German in “Early Life Section” and he thought Grace Ho’s father was German. This is incorrect and misleading the readers. As mentioned above “Ho’s family pedigree”. What I meant was Robert Ho’s family pedigree and his relative. If you have time, please take a look at the profile of Sir Robert Ho-tung, Ho Fook, Ho Kom Tong, Stanley Ho, Grace Ho (from the articles, books, internet etc……). They were related. Although it is difficult to find an official English book about them, since these people were exclusively famed in Chinese region. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:56, 30 December 2009 (UTC) To say that I "thought" Grace Ho's father was German is incorrect. You don't know what I think. I simply mentioned that a reliable source stated that this was the case. I don't have any first hand knowledge of the truth (no one has first hand knowledge of this other than persons in Bruce Lee's family), and so, in response to a direct query, I provided what information was contained in the source and explicitly noted that this is what a reliable source stated. So far, no one has provided any reliable source that contradicts it. In other words, this is the best (in fact, the only) information on Grace's parents we have as far as reliable sources are concerned. So, User:Undefeatedcooler's continued insistence on characterizing this as "incorrect" is merely spin. Until User:Undefeatedcooler can demonstrate otherwise, it is better to say "uncertain" at most. And if he can point to an "official" Chinese source, why doesn't he do so? There are plenty of readers of this article that could both confirm the reliability of the source, and the content. Continuing this discussion is pointless until User:Undefeatedcooler can provide additional reliable information and stop repeating himself. — Myasuda (talk) 16:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC) An "official" Chinese source? I don’t think anyone can read Chinese here. I don’t understand why you keep obligating us to believe Grace Ho’s father was German, (only a sentence by Bruce Thomas)? Could you tell us, who was her father? I will not put any reliable sources here, since you will be disputing those are not reliable sources. I’ve already told you her father was Ho Kom Tong, just look up those people I’ve mentioned above. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 17:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC) There are plenty of editors on WP that can read Chinese (I'm not one of them, but there are plenty) so if the sources you have are reputable then please post them so they can be checked. And, yes, they will be checked. To deny sources because someone might check them to see if they are reliable is self-defeating. All the sources here have been subject to scrutiny of some sort (or, should have been). Other than that Mysauda is right, the article stays as is - "partly German ancestry". In as much as it's significant at all. Padillah (talk) 18:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC) All of this arguing is silly and moronic. It was Bruce Lee's grandmother who was half Chinese and half German. If you wish to verify this you can contact his brother, Robert Lee as well as other family members who are alive today. His mother was only a quarter German, thus Bruce Lee was only an 1/8 German. As with much of the Hong Kong population, this is irrelevant. There were many, many Hong Kong folks who are of mixed blood even though it may be denied. In fact, interracial mixing goes back over a hundred years in Hong Kong - you will find thousands of people with a small percentage of various Chinese ethnic groups, German, Dutch, Portuguese, Japanese, Filipinos, Malay, Indian, Italian, etc., ethnic blood. Random DNA tests on blood samples have shown this, (ISSN 1007-9327 CN 14-1219/R World J Gastroenterol 2007 April 14;13(14): 2100-2103) due in conclusion to the amount variation of Cytochrome P450 2B6 polymorphisms. The frequency of variation was significantly higher than for all other Asian populations, including Japanese, Korean, Taiwan, and Chinese-Han. Regardless of whether, you like it or not, it is circumstantial proof. The only people who care about his Germany ancestry are German racists trying to create some evidence that Bruce Lee was great because he has some minute German blood in. The fact is that amount of German blood Bruce Lee had is totally irrelevant and I have debating whether that information should be removed from the wiki. I suppose that Jet Li, Yuan Wen Qing, Wu Jing, Jiang Bang Jun, He JingDe, and even Jackie Chan, must be partly German too using that moronic argument. If you wish to go that route, it might even be possible that Bruce Lee could of been faster, stronger, and even a better martial artist, but unfortunately his 1/8 Germanic blood slowed him down. Huo Xin (talk) 06:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC) I agree that this is certainly a long overdrawn discussion that isn’t going anywhere fast, but do try and keep the anti-German rhetoric to a minimal please. (And that’s coming from me, whose family has a long tradition of being rather anti-German due to lost relatives in the two world wars and my Jewish heritage…). I vote to close this topic.--Misortie (talk) 06:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC) No anti-German insult was intended. My point is that it is totally inappropriate and irrelevant whether Bruce Lee was of German ancestry or not. It's importance only serves those who seem to have a racist agenda by trying to make it a relevant fact. I also agree that this discussion should end here. Huo Xin (talk) 07:00, 6 January 2010 (UTC) I, myself, abhor racial "bragging" that claims talent as coming from a certain lineage but, in this case his lineage is relevant for one reason - it's the basis for his being denied tutelage under Yip Man. It should not be presented as anything other than that. This isn't a question of "bragging rights", this fact is only there to support the statement that his peers used his ancestry to deny him access to certain teachers. As for closing this thread, I thought we had. Padillah (talk) 12:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is now archived and closed. I agree with Padillah regarding his training with Yip Man. However, it was not Yip Man who denied him tutelege. Yip Man was a friend of Bruce Lee's father's Tai Chi teacher. It was the other students who refused to train with him because of his mixed blood.Huo Xin (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Taoist category

You forget include Category:Chinese Taoists for Bruce Lee. This category are very important for Bruce Lee article. I can't add this category because i'm not registred and this article was protected, so, please, any registred user have to add this category.

Thank You.

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.212.135.65 (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no time to read it at the moment, but does it say anywhere in the article he was a Taoist? --大輔 泉 (talk) 22:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Lead and categories

One may disagree about this and that but the fact that my edits have been wholesale reverted without a) an explanation and even b) request for further literary references have been undone strongly suggests some people here are reverting before thinking. Rationale for my edits:

• removed template for martial arts styles out of place here
• redundant template, since while Lee is a Chinese surname, "Bruce Lee" is not a Chinese name, but follows the conventional Western pattern of first name / family name.
• lead: unclear what "crucial time in history" actually refers to; remove unreferenced soap opera about Cultural Revolution, a link to that event is enough
• remove categories. Bruce Lee was not Chinese, he only held US citizenship as is well-known. If you want that category still included, please show us the corresponding WP guideline on which the action is based. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruce Lee was a martial artist, there’s no excuse to remove template for martial arts styles in his article.

Bruce Lee’s surname “Lee”, was a Chinese surname. His birth name was Lee Jun Fan (a Cantonese given name). So there’s no reason that his family name to be removed.

It was absolutely certain that he portrayed Chinese nationalism and upheld the Chinese national pride at a crucial time in history and also of Asians through all of his movies which reached every part of the known world.

“He only held US citizenship”? That’s wrong, He held at least dual citizenship in his entire life. (has been discussed, widely considered and reached a consensus from above dispute).

“Bruce Lee was not Chinese”, that’s ridiculous. He was surely a Chinese person, I know there were a lot of anti-Chinese in America, but please put your bias and racism away. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine, you simply assert these things, but we like to see hard evidence for a change. Your user contributions reveal you to be a Wikipedia:Single-purpose account and this edit pattern is heavily frowned upon here. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I've readily resolved your dispute, and I don't understand why would you brought Wikipedia:Single-purpose account into it. Also you have never participate in any of the discussions in this article. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you have answered a single question of mine satisfactorily. Why don't you provide hard evidence that BL held the Chinese citizenship, that is of the PRCh? That would solve a major issue right away. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is claiming Bruce had citizenship of the People's Republic of China.

The following are facts no more open to dispute and no more requiring further "hard evidence" (which you aren't providing for your edits) than the location of his birth: He was born while his parents, Hong Kong natives, were temporarily visiting the USA. Not very long after his birth, his parents returned—with Bruce—to HK, where they raised him with his HK–native siblings.

By definition of all this, he had—and was raised with—whatever citizenship came at that time with being a Hong Kong native, in addition to the US citizenship which was an accident of the geographic location of his birth and nothing more; the latter was not utilized by him until he was grown. At that time he had a need to get out of HK (documented and elaborated on in many biographical works) rather than a desire to go to America. This was most easily accomplished with his birth certificate and his consequential right to assert US citizenship and be admitted to the country with no further discussion, rather than by applying for a passport/visa (possibly to go to someplace closer, for one example Australia where his English would be as useful as Stateside) and have to pay careful attention to the immigration laws. To say that he was an American and nothing else is absolutely incorrect. Whether those "Chinese" categories refer to ethnicity or what, as well as the other points, I'll leave to others to determine. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think many readers are led to believe that he was "an American and nothing else" considering how much the lead is plastered with the words "Chinese" and "Hong Kong". And the "Chinese-language" infobox for an US-American actor may actually be viewed by many a bit too presumptuous. But the fun definitely stops at the categories. For that I would like to see either a Wikipedia guideline which allows also entries on the basis of ethnicity, or, if the exclusive criteria is nationality, a reference to a solid source about Lee being a Chinese, that is PRCh citizen. You listed him as Chinese, you provide the proof. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

First of all, he has been described as Chinese American in the opening sense (an American citizen of Chinese descent). By cultural identity, it means that he was part of a group of people who have both Chinese and American cultural practices and upbringing as was well known in the world.

In his case, American actor was secondary, as he gained celebrity since being a Hong Kong child actor, and became world famous from being a Hong Kong actor.

To inscribe ethnicity in categories, accorded the Wikipedia guideline. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Please point me to that guideline (and wouldn't we need to add "German" then all well?) Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, We have already discussed, archived and closed his German ancestry on the above dispute. He was 1/8 of German ancestry only, and was nothing much of the German cultural practices and upbringing. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

This is an inaccurate summary of the previous debate. The only reliable sources provided during the debate indicated 1/4 German ancestry. You merely showed that you were unable to provide a suitable English source to support your claim, and that you were either afraid or unwilling to provide a reliable Chinese source (which you claimed existed). You also made false statements early on during the debate, which were demonstrated by my providing quotes from reliable sources. And you prolonged the debate by repeating yourself ad nauseum and not providing sources as requested (except for some ridiculous ones from unreliable gambling sites). I don't want to get dragged into this debate, but if you make false representations, then I'll be sure to join in. Also, please learn how to indent your responses properly on discussion pages. You should have learned that by now. — Myasuda (talk) 14:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Didn't you read the comments made by Huo Xin (talk)? Gosh, I thought the dispute has been settled since that discussion was closed. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 15:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, I am going to have to insist that if you are to continue to utilize this discussion page, you must learn to INDENT YOUR RESPONSES. It is not difficult. You are turning the discussion page into a complete mess. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 00:30, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, please provide now references for your views. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:01, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Shaolin Samurai, you don't have the right to criticize me. The messages I proposed in this discussion page were the facts and have occurred in Bruce Lee's life. But you did not, you concealed some part of Bruce Lee's life history.

There were a few users being stubborn and races in this discussion page, and you knew it. I wonder who does actually utilize this discussion page?

Gun Powder Ma, what references do you want? The German ancestry discussion was closed, but you can look back in the history and see what had happened and the outcome of that discussion.

Have a look at other articles, see whether ethnicity should inscribe in categories? If not, I think you have to edit tons of articles.

Also don't remove those relevant statements in the article. I've already warned you. If you revert the page again I will report you for violating the three revert rule. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, first - nobody is above criticism. Why you are reacting so hostilely to a simple request to INDENT YOUR RESPONSES (precede your comments with a ":" below the post you are responding to), I have no idea. I am going to ignore your completely inappropriate comments and baseless accusations this time, and again ask that you indent your responses. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 18:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, what I would like to see is either a Wikipedia guideline which allows also entries on the basis of ethnicity, or, if the exclusive criteria is nationality, a reference to a solid source about Lee being a Chinese, that is PRCh citizen. You listed him as Chinese, you provide the proof.Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Shaolin Samurai, “inappropriate comments”? I am just expressing the truths, you must admit to my comments.

Gun Powder Ma, firstly, read all of Tbrittreid (talk)'s explanations. "Nobody is claiming Bruce had citizenship of the People's Republic of China". I must inform you that none of the Hong Kong people had citizenship of the People's Republic of China, they had citizenship of Hong Kong. But I must also inform you that Hong Kong people recognized themself as Chinese rather than Hong Kongese.

Secondly, he has been described as both American citizen and Hong Kong citizen in the opening sense.

Thirdly, as I've said, take a look at other celebrities, see whether ethnicity should inscribe in categories? Otherwise, you have to edit tons of articles. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 05:10, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, where is your evidence for BL being a "Chinese"? Please stop referring in the revision history to this pseudo-discussion of yours. After one week you still do not bring anything to the table, but just reiterate your points. Remember, you are the single-purpose account who does basically nothing here, but reverting. The ice is thin under your feet... Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Gun Powder Ma, you keep on repeating yourself and couldn't comprehend the points. You never read and participated in any of the previous discussions. So before you start yelling, read everything in this discussion page and comprehends it.

Look up the article on Chinese people. The term Chinese people may refer to any of the following:

l People who reside in and hold citizenship of the People's Republic of China (mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau) or the Republic of China (Taiwan).

l The Zhonghua minzu (sometimes translated as "Chinese nation"), a supra-ethnic concept which includes all 56 ethnic groups live in China that are officially recognized by the government of the People's Republic of China, such as Han, Zhuang, Manchu, Tibetans, and other established ethnic groups who have lived within the borders of China since at least the Qing Dynasty (1644–1911). It may also include overseas Chinese.

l People of Han Chinese ancestry, who are often simply referred to as "Chinese" or "ethnic Chinese" in English.

I'd like to ask you one simple question: why referring the English people as English (not British) in the encyclopedia articles? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Ehem* just a general reminder, keep this discussion on the nice side. Thanks, but I don’t want to see any “Anti-Chinese editors are controlling this article” comments.--大輔 泉 (talk) 19:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler - you have thus far demonstrated an incredible level of immaturity and bullheadedness, so this will likely fall on deaf ears, but please refrain from excessive and random bolding of words and phrases in your comments. It is incredibly distracting and adds nothing to the persuasiveness of your comments. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 01:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Shaolin Samurai, “random bolding”? Those were the key points for the lazy and stubborn people to read clearly. You are the one being immature, bullheaded and racist (anti-Chinese) with your insults and ignorant attitudes to this discussion page. You are only interested in criticizing me, and you were completely no help to these discussions. I don't want to start an argument with you. This discussion has come to an end. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Hatnote no longer relevant

Would someone with sufficient editing privileges please remove the hatnote referring to Bruce Lee (arsonist)? The article has been deleted as an attack page. Favonian (talk) 22:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks like it was dealt with, thanks Tim!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:56, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Lead sentence

Per WP:MOSBIO, can we please list sources here for Lee's nationality/citizenship? I am not talking about different laws, but specific citations for Lee in perticular. It seems this would be the first step towards consensus. This isn't about the "truth" or our opinions, this is about what reliable sources state as to his nationality/citizenship. His ethnicity, where he lived, his self identification, what categories he belongs in, how we discribe him as an actor, ect should go below the lead. Anyways, thank you, --Tom (talk) 18:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Second that. The discussion should move from merely putting forward opinions to also citing evidence for them. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This was done some time ago, under Talk:Bruce Lee#Arbitrary break. I imagine it would have been much easier to find had it not been for Undefeatedcooler's stubborn refusal to simply indent his responses. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Shaolin Samurai, I read there, but obviously not as closely as needed. If appropriate, I will move them here after looking at them. Also, please try not to comment about other editors actions/motives if possible, thanks, --Tom (talk) 19:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

It looks like those sources refer to him as Asian-American, ect. Thats not what I am talking about. We need to find sources regarding his citizenship, period. Can we 1st source that he was an American citizen? Being born in the US usually does it for me, but if we are going to be "fair" about this and hold this to the highest standard, that is what would be required. Then we could look at British or Chinese or whatever other citizenship that would go in the lede. Thanks, --Tom (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your question. The terms "Asian American" and "Chinese American" refer to cultural identity as well as citizenship. That should be more than sufficient in establishing his citizenship. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This is the heart of the "problem" most likely here. Those "terms" do not establish citizenship at all, especially for an encyclopedia. Many folks, for example, are called "Irish-American" or "Italian-American" or "Whatever-American" without holding those other citizenships. Those terms usually convey ethnicity. The best thing would be for the source to say "Joe Blow is a citizen of x, y, or z, ect. That would be definitive. Anyways, I need to run but....--Tom (talk) 19:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Please see

• Lee, Linda (1989), The Bruce Lee Story, United States: Ohara Publications, p. 41, ISBN 0897501217

for a reliable reference's mention of Lee's American citizenship. Consult [9] if you do not have a hardcopy reference available. — Myasuda (talk) 20:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

(outdent to left) ...back :)...ok, very good, thank you Myasuda. Now, did lee hold any other citizenship?(sources of course please)....--Tom (talk) 23:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Nobody was ever claiming that he didn't have US citizenship at all. This refusal to acknowledge the fact that being born to Hong Kong-native parents who raised him in Hong Kong among his Hong Kong-native siblings means he had whatever citizenship they had just as automatically as being born on US soil means he had US citizenship (which he did not use in any way, shape or form until he reached adulthood) is indefensible, and reeks of some ulterior motive or hidden agenda. (Note to administrators: Thomas Jefferson's defense of referring to King George III as a tyrant in the Declaration of Independence was, "The King is a tyrant whether we say so or not; we might as well say so." The same principle applies here, and "might as well" was a gross understatement for Jefferson, and is here. This is not "a terrible thing for me to say," but is a terrible thing to be the situation at hand. The proper response to a terrible thing is to deal with it and make it cease to be terrible, not to commit cranial-rectal insertion, pretend that it doesn't exist, and fault a person who points it out for having done just that. That attitude is not only detrimental to the encyclopedia, it is irrational, literally lacking in rationality.) I admit that it would take sources to determine just which citizenship the Hong Kong-based one is, but Gun Powder Ma's repeated statement that Lee was "American only, as is well known" is absolutely WRONG. So was his/her demanding Undefeatedcooler present references when his/her own version was not sourced, and his/her PRC-citizenship-only based definition of Chinese in the category names. I repeat, it is extremely difficult to not suspect some hidden agenda at work here. --Tbrittreid (talk) 00:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

***This is a general civility notice, please keep your cool when editing and making comments. Lets not let this discussion spiral into accusations and overly forceful words. Thank you.***--Frank Fontaine (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I did keep my cool and said no more than what the situation required. Did you fail to read my parenthetical "Note to administrators"? --Tbrittreid (talk) 00:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

You are mistaken that was a general notice for the discussion and not aimed at one particular editor. --Frank Fontaine (talk) 00:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Point taken, and my apologies for my self-centered assumption. --Tbrittreid (talk) 20:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

What’s the purpose of concealing Bruce Lee's Chinese/Hong Kong status by some of the editors here?

The world famous Jet Li has currently taken up Singapore citizenship. Shall we also conceal Jet Li's Chinese status in his article too?

Certainly, when Bruce Lee was living in Hong Kong, he was a HK citizen. (otherwise he wouldn't be able to live there for years).

Someone need to provide reliable sources stated that Bruce Lee was only US citizenship while he was living in Hong Kong. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 03:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

..back :)...guys, can we please try to find citations for citizenship? I can't speak for others, but for me, this isn't about "concealing" anything, or the truth, or whatever. It is about what reliable sources have to say about the matter, period. If a citation regarding citizenship, or maybe what passport(s) he held, ect, that we be very helpful towards cleaning up the LEAD sentence per MOSBIO....anyways, I will try to look for one...also, maybe the BLP noticeboard could also be of help?, thanks, --Tom (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is a 1967 article about Bruce Lee that appeared in Black Belt Magazine, before his popularity exploded. Lee is referred to as "Cantonese" and "although born in the US was not eligible for his US Citizenship until he reached voting age"(age of 18), one would have to take that as between the ages of 4 months and when he emmigrated to America he held the same status as other residents of Hong Kong. He also refers to his own son in the article as a "Chinaman".[10]--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Mike, I indented your comment, hope you don't mind. Do you have a suggestion for how the FIRST sentence should read? After more thought, the idea of including Hong Kong might, big MIGHT, work, but not sure. I had removed it, because what exactly is, or are we trying to say by calling him a "Hong Kong actor"? That he had HK citizenship, or that he worked primarily in HK? Anyways, more eyes here the better :) Also is Hong Kong the same as Chinese? Or could he be British? Again, that is why specific citations regarding citizenship are needed rather than a source "calling" him Cantonese, etc. Do we know what passport(s) he held, and would that be useful?...many questions :)...Cheers, --Tom (talk) 17:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)ps, Mike, also, is the part about him although born in the US was not eligible for his US Citizenship until he reached the age of 18 ("Voting age"), is that from the/a source, or is that your interpretation of how US citizenship law works?..just curious...tia, --Tom (talk) 17:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

As for the term, "Hong Kong Actor", I would call him a Hong Kong Actor because that is where the bulk of his films were made. Not just the "Big Three": Chinese connection, Fists of Fury, and Way of the Dragon, but a good 15-20 films he made as a child in Hong Kong. Enter the Dragon was his only US Studio picture aside from Marlowe where he only had a brief role. Game of Death was the ultimate exploitation film, being cobbled together after his death with raw footage. He was on one US TV series that ran for a single season and guet-starred on at least 5 others. If I recall correctly, the Kung Fu pilot gives him credit as a fight coreographer. I believe Hong Kong and China are the same now regarding citizenship. However, there was a distinction in the past, not just PRC vs Crown Colony; but also language and martial arts. Mainland China refers to the art as Kung Fu, whereas Bruce always used the Hong Kong (Cantonese) term Gung Fu. This characterizes the "style" as being different as well, smaller close movements as opposed to longer more elaborate Northern styles. I do not know anything beyond what is out there in other sources regarding passports/citizenship.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that you are a US Citizen if you are born here. There may have been something in the past about citizenship not guaranteed if unclaimed by a certain age, I don't know for sure. Here is another source relating this:"He was part of a small gang that was big enough to cause his mother to ship him to America before his 18th birthday so he could claim his dual-citizenship and avoid winding up in jail."[11]. Now, dual-citizenship is only recognized by the US for two countries: Ireland and Israel; other countries may recognize it, but the US does not, it is possible HK may have. I know Greece and Iran go back 6 generations regardless of birth. I'll keep digging, here is another quote from a book: "On November 27, 1940, Lee was born to Mr. and Mrs. Lee Hoi Cheun in the year and the hour of the dragon. He would have dual American and Chinese Citizenship,"[12]. Here is another source, a book titled Monitored peril: Asian Americans and the politics of TV representation By Darrell Y. Hamamoto quoting Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's book Giant Steps:"He would have been perfect, a master working his art before the national audience, but whoever it was that decided such things made it clear to Bruce that they didn't think a Chinese man could be a hero in America. They passed over Bruce and gave the part, and the stardom to David Carradine."[13]--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike, I "like" the middle or "4th" cite above. It talks about dual citizenship rather than "being Chinese", which is what I was looking for. I hate using "hypenated", ie, Chinese-American whatever in the lead, but that is what we are now facing I guess. Do you have a suggestion for how the lead sentence should be crafted? Thanks for your help....--Tom (talk) 19:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

That would appear to be the most accurate. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the specifics of British/HK law to speak to whether "dual-citizenship" actually applies. My best guess is that he was a citizen of Hong Kong (or a Commonwealth Subject) based on what I've read here: British nationality law and Hong Kong and related articles. However that might be wandering into the Original Research minefield. If consensus agrees that the source material states Lee had dual citizenship, I would go in that direction; yet, this will come up again when some legal scholar challenges the validity of the term "dual-citizenship" as the US most likely did not recognize it. I'm not a legal expert or immigration expert at all, just a student of Martial Arts for 30+ years, studying Lee's methods and philosophy for close to 25 of those years.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Lee's birth in the USA to Hong Kong natives did indeed give him dual citizenship, but only his parents (as his legal guardians) had the right to decide which one to use, and they raised him under whatever citizenship came with being a "Hong Konger." Bruce had no say in the matter (legally) until reaching his maturity; "eligibile" was a poor word choice. Mike Searson was misquoting the Black Belt article on this point (and, yes, Tom, he was clearly presenting that statement as a quote from the article); it actually reads: "In Hong Kong Bruce always kept in mind the fact that he was born in the United States and was therefore destined for American citizenship when he reached the voting age." This is a citable source (the article is an interview with him, just not presented in transcript form) that Bruce Lee did not consider himself an American citizen as he was growing up in the Lee home in Hong Kong. Period. I also must concede that this contradicts my own previous assertion that no thought was given to the option of utilizing this right until he needed to get out of Hong Kong and away from the street gangs there. I have that article (and its conclusion from the following issue of Black Belt) as reprinted in a 1974 one-off magazine, The Best of Bruce Lee, collecting articles, photo features, and other items about Lee from BB and two other magazines (Karate Illustrated and Fighting Stars) from the same publishers. It's easier (for me, at least) to read than the page Mike linked to, but with his we can get the specific citation for the original presentation of this. Thanks, Mike. --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I may have misquoted that as I was reading another about Ang Lee talking about the same subject as I was typing that up, I thought I fixed it, but may have just thrown up quotes on the second edit. I have no agenda beyond writing a factual article. Please Assume Good Faith.  :) I'm still trying to think of a better way to phrase it, but the fact is he was an American citizen by birth. I would have no problem with Black Belt as a source. Or the "Best of" compilation, which I have stashed away somewhere along with a later version they did in the 90's.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

How about this:"Bruce Lee (27 November 1940 – 20 July 1973) was an actor, martial artist, philosopher, film director, film producer, screenwriter, and founder of the Jeet Kune Do concept. He is considered by many as the most influential martial artist of the 20th century, and a cultural icon. Born in a San Francisco hospital to Chinese Hong Kong-native parents who were touring with the Chinese Opera, Lee was an American citizen by birth who was raised in Hong Kong."--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest that your misquote was deliberate, but was merely pointing out the fact that what you put in quotation marks did not match the actual text. After all, other than the use of the word "eligible" (which I labelled "a poor word choice," thereby assuming good faith), the meaning was exactly the same as in the original. You assume good faith. As for your suggestion, how about one slight change, "...to Hong Kong-native parents...." thereby eliminating the potential misinterpretation of PRC citizenship? --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:23, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I know, I threw a smiley in to lighten the mood a bit. One thing about google books is you can't copy+paste...still not sure how I hosed it up as the other piece wasn't like that either. I know you're a good editor, I worked with you on something else not too long ago, can't remember what...anyway...Hong Kong parentage would definitely be more accurate. I think this is more "correct" than trying to encapsulate it in the first sentence as it is rather unique.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I can probably go with whatever you folks agree upon at this point. I was just trying to get some good citations included and a writing that doesn't go into original research. The above suggestion seems to cover the "facts" rather than "labeling" Lee's nationality. Anyways, this is not easy so good luck...--Tom (talk) 14:20, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I think Mikes' lead above is fine. His citizenship is a legal issue and I don't think any of us have the ability to determine what it was at any given time. Just because Lee was waiting doesn't mean he had to, he may have been misinformed about his citizenship rights. He was no lawyer either. So, setting all that aside, we can say, unequivocally, where he was born and who his parents were. Padillah (talk) 17:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

According to Bruce Lee's wife, "upon his arrival Bruce was already a citizen" (see here (p. 41)). Since this is the authorized biography of Lee, we have now the first hard evidence that he was indeed US American. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but indeed dual citizens. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Surely "US-American" is not the term to use? JJL (talk) 12:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Which else? He was a citizen of the USA as testified by his wife. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm talking about the awkward construction "US-American" being used where [[United States of America|American]] would be the usual way of indicating this. JJL (talk) 13:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

For god's sake, he was also a HK citizen. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 19:32, 1 April 2010 (UTC)