Talk:Book of Revelation/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Two improvements

The first one was about Jerome relegating the Apocalypse to a second class. I checked the source, and it was an encyclopedia. I got the encyclopedia, found its information, and all it said about Jerome on the Apocalypse was: "An exceptional position was taken up by Jerome, who, under eastern influence, relegated the Apocalypse to the second class of scripturae ecclesiasticae (in Ps. 149)..." So I removed the encyclopedia middle-man and changed the reference to "Jerome's homily on Psalm 149". I will get the homily later and verify or remove the wikipedia sentence on Jerome.

The second one was about the 1st Council of Hippo. The wikipedia page used more wishy-washy language that made it appear as if the Council was against the Apocalypse. Rather, only dissenters were, and the Council affirmed it. So, I removed the statement about the Council, since it was irrelevant.Glorthac (talk) 03:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The Use of Citations

I noticed that someone recently deleted a paragraph, and one of the reasons given was that it did not contain a (secondary) citation, which prompted me to share a few thoughts on the use of citations.

I can't help thinking that we often try to be too clever for our own good in theological articles on Wiki. We throw in all of these obscure citations (some of which no self-respecting theologian would want to be associated with), and we forget, or perhaps don't realize, that the highest form of citation is that of the primary source, which in this case is Revelation itself. A quote from a primary source is worth two or three from secondary sources.

This is not to say that secondary sources aren't valuable. However, just because something is published doesn't make it worth quoting, or even accurate, and we have to be careful that we don't use citations in a way that might be misleading to people who are not acquainted with Revelation and its issues. Some of our readers (and some of our editors too, I think) don't realize that a secondary citation is just an opinion, no matter how well-informed that opinion may be.

Finally, it is not necessary to provide a citation from a secondary source to illustrate every single point. To expect this is to impose an unreasonable burden on writers/editors. If a statement is both reasonable and can be supported by the primary text, it is perfectly acceptable, even without a secondary citation. If a secondary citation can be added, so much the better, but the lack of one is not a cause for deletion. --gdm (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Depending on the paragraph, the primary sources might have been appropriate and might not have been. What was the paragraph? Leadwind (talk) 23:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

dating and undue weight

Look at the dating section. It pays far more attention to the minority, early-date view than to the predominant view (c 96).

Here's the undue weight policy: "Neutrality requires that an article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint, giving them "due weight". It is important to clarify that articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more widely held views."

Leadwind (talk) 22:59, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Leadwind, you're beginning to sound like a bureaucrat! Reading the passages in question, I see no undue weight given to any of the positions. The earlier date (which I personally do not support) takes up more space because it is more complex and requires more explanation. Notwithstanding, the views are presented in a fair and even-handed manner, and a lot of effort has been put into making them so. If you're concerned that a particular view is still not getting covered in enough detail, we would like nothing better than for you to fill in the gaps with new material, but please don't try to even things up by deleting what others have worked hard to put together, or by changing the wording in a way which privileges one position over another. --gdm (talk) 21:39, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Please cite me a policy or guideline that says we should give more space to less-notable views when the less-notable views are complex. Leadwind (talk) 15:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Modern views and undue weight

Take a look at the Modern views section. Notice how many words are devoted to the mainstream scholarly view (first paragraph), and how many words are devoted to older, minority views (three other paragraphs). For NPOV reasons, it's important to give each viewpoint an amount of coverage proportional to its notability. Minority views should be secondary. Leadwind (talk) 18:40, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Leadwind, you're coming in late in the discussion here. There has been lots of contention in the past due to the use of loaded (and subjective) terms like "mainstream," "liberal," "conservative," "academic," "non-academic," etc., which are often used in a way which amounts to little more than name-calling, and we've made a conscious effort to get rid of that kind of language. If you turned in an academic paper, at least at the graduate and post-graduate levels, and offered as an argument in support of your thesis that it is "mainstream" -- quite frankly, your professor would laugh at you. On this site, we've found that presenting multiple views in an objective and unbiased fashion has been a good way to get rid of the contention and the destructive editing that went along with it, not to mention that it's a good scholarly practice. If you have anything constructive to add to the article, we'd love to see you participate, but if your idea is just to tear down what's already there, please reconsider.--gdm (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

It's a good thing I'm not submitting a paper to a professor! It's no fun to be laughed at! Anyway, the point is that the more predominant views should get more space and the less predominant views less space. Right? Isn't that what WP:NPOV says? Leadwind (talk) 15:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

As for getting laughed at, what do you think a professior would say if you turned in an academice paper that cited the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible.? Leadwind (talk) 15:55, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

introduction out of place

Currently the Composition section includes an "Introduction" subsection. Instead, the Introduction should be discussed elsewhere, where the article discusses the content, probably under the "structure" section. Leadwind (talk) 19:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Leadwind, this is great! We actually agree on something! I've long felt that the article's organization still needed work. If you can help to organize it in a more logical way (without undermining the article's neutrality), I, for one, would be grateful to you.--gdm (talk) 19:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

characters

The Characters section is an excellent place to avoid contentious interpretations and simply build out the article with good information about the content of Revelation. I started, but there's plenty of room for folks to add a sentence or two for each character. Leadwind (talk) 13:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Include some sense of John in the introduction.

I liked this introduction. It flowed and made sense (unlike many if not most other wiki articles). One suggestion for improvement: Include something about John in the introduction. I liked the definition of the word "revelation", something similar regarding John would be useful. The John that wrote "Revelations" can be confused with "John the Baptist". It would just be a good idea to establish something of his identity, what his relationship was to Christ, etc... to provide some context for the rest of the article. ````Jonny Quick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.137.251.249 (talk) 04:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Jonny: Good comment. If we could agree that John the Apostle wrote Revelation, we could have a section giving all of the background information we have on him, and it most certainly would be a worthwhile addition. Trouble is, we can't agree on who wrote it (see the section on "Authorship"). --gdm (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

The lead should summarize the article, see WP:lead. In particular, it should summarize the content of the book and the various traditions about the author. Leadwind (talk) 23:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

If you feel the intro is incomplete, you need to write a section to add whatever you think is missing, but please don't do it by copying and pasting, or cutting and pasting, from the body of the article. Re authorial issues: In the case of a document like Revelation, these are more extensive than can be covered adequately in the intro, which is why they have been given their own separate section. The rules are good guidelines, but each situation is unique and some flexibility is required. --gdm (talk) 04:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Two editors and the guidelines for good leads all say we should summarize the main points of the article in the lead. I have a lot of experience editing leads and have a pretty good idea that this one is poor. A lead should be able to stand on its own as a concise summary of the topic. Please cite a guideline or policy that supports excluding this information from the lead. If you can't, then please let other editors edit this page in accordance with standard WP practice. Leadwind (talk) 17:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

No problem there, Leadwind. There's always room for improvement. You just need to create a real summary of your own making, and not just copy and paste from the body of the article. --gdm (talk) 21:15, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Please cite me the policy or guideline that says I can't just copy and past from the body. Let's leave aside our various opinions and stick to policies and guidelines. Leadwind (talk) 15:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a matter of common sense, Leadwind. Clearly, you don't want to have a paragraph here, then an identical one further down.--gdm (talk) 19:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Neither of the paragraphs you deleted from the lead was identical to any paragraph in the body. But it's a moot point because the sort of information that you deleted (author and content) is now in the lead. Leadwind (talk) 13:11, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Old Testament origins

I'm trying to start a new section entitled Old Testament Origins of Revelation. This seems a useful topic and it is one which has spawned a small and manageable research literature in recent years. My plan is to have an opening part which discusses the theories commentators have developed, then a section going through each chapter of Revelation (actually it will probably be possible to group the chapters) and show the interesting uses to which John puts his sources. Anyway; that is the plan at present! All are welcome to add to and amend it as it goes along. Coxparra (talk) 18:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

There are similarities between the visions of John and those of Ezekiel; the waters in Ezekiel's city are of interest as well as his detailed architectural remarks; there are similarities as well amongst the observations in Enoch to those of John -- particularly in the details of Enoch's mentions of gates and their compass -- those have resembled to this reader, something of Stonehenge. 69.69.21.99 (talk) 18:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

My editing of Modern Views

I shortened the "Modern Views" section significantly. However, I still think paragraphs 2-4 shouldn't even be there in the first place. I think this because paragraph 1 is about the '3 John's theory', while paragraphs 2-4 are about a 'Redactor of Revelation' theory.

If you like how I've shortened the article, say so, so we can remove that dumb "undue" thingy.Glorthac (talk) 20:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Criticism by Nietzsche

I would like to add (but don't know how to go about it yet) this translation of some lines from Nietzsche's Geneaology of Morals to Criticism: "By contrast, how did the Jews feel about Rome? We can guess that from a thousand signs, but it is sufficient to treat ourselves again to the Apocalypse of John, that wildest of all written outbursts which vengeance has on its conscience. (Incidentally, we must not underestimate the deep consistency of the Christian instinct, when it ascribed this very book of hate to the name of the disciple of love, the same man to whom it attributed that enthusiastic amorous gospel—: there is some truth to this, no matter how much literary counterfeiting may have been necessary for this purpose)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.212.110.88 (talk) 17:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Too Much Space Given to Modern View

There is too much space given in the "Modern View" section. Besides not representing the views of all modern people, every single person that wrote about the Book of Revelations shortly after it was written said it was written by John the Apostle. And why is the "Traditional View" called "Traditional" anyway? The basis of the book being attributed to John the Apostle is based on ancient writings, including by people that actually knew John. These are eyewitness accounts, not "traditions." A tradition is putting up a Christmas tree each year. Do you people not even know the difference between an eyewitness account and a tradition? The "modern" view seems to based on a very subjective view of writing style, which seems to be based on nothing. Use of the words "traditional" and "modern" makes the article biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clydeman (talk • contribs) 19:22, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with the length of the modern view subsection as it is. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 16:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Clydeman, Wikipedia renders the consensus of scholars (or lack of such consensus, case wherein it presents the scholarly debate). Scientific consensus is reached according to the scientific method. Scientific debate takes place in print-published, peer-reviewed scientific journals. The book does say that it is written by John, but it does not say who this John was, e.g. it does not claim that John would be an apostle. As you saw in the introduction, the idea that this book was written by the Apostle John is based upon an allusion made by Justin Martyr. So, unless interpreting an allusion counts for a establishing a hard fact, rather than hearsay, there are no direct witnesses vouching for the fact that the Apocalypse of John was written by the Apostle John. You have a very limited understanding of the formation of the New Testament cannon and I suggest that you update your knowledge with recent scientific articles about the Apocalypse of John. In this respect, you cannot just believe your priest or pastor on his word of honor, since he/she is most probably not recognized as a scholar by the scientific community. Scholars work according to the principle "publish or perish", i.e. publish in print-published, peer-reviewed scientific journals. Your church cannot know any better than scholars, since it does not have historical sources vouching for its authorship. It if would have had such sources, it would have made them available to scholars. So, churchly tradition only represents an opinion among many other opinions, it cannot count as a statement of fact, and it does not constitute scholarly work. History should not be conflated with theology: establishing who a real person was is a matter of historical research, not of theological speculation. Besides, a reliable source says that according to the modern scholars the Apostle John did not write any of the books of the Bible. So, unless you are able to quote reliable sources in support of your claims, I consider that your accuse of bias lacks any scholarly ground. Inside an encyclopedia we only render the views of the most representative scholars. We do not do original research and we refrain from venting our own opinions upon what constitutes scholarly matters. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I respect the sincere enthusiasm of the above entry, but for the sake of readers who are new to the subject would like to make a few observations: 1) The writer is apparently not well-acquainted with the evidence and diversity of opinion re the authorship of Revelation and the other “Johannine” documents. 2) To suggest that theology is or can be “objective science” is inaccurate and extremely naïve. If we think of Revelation as just literature, the same thing applies to literary studies. 3) The clergyperson/scholar dichotomy is false. Many clergypeople are scholars and vice-versa. 4) Peer-review is not a certification of truthfulness or “scientific” accuracy, and it does not necessarily mean that a work is a “reliable source.” It simply means that the author is a recognized authority by virtue of his or her academic standing, his/her publication has been reviewed by others of a similar standing, and while they may not agree with it on all points, they consider it to be a valid contribution to the ongoing discussion. Peer review does not mean that the author checked his/her individuality at the door, and peer-reviewed publications frequently offer contradictory viewpoints. This is considered healthy and normal. --Kicheko (talk) 04:11, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea why you think that post is a response to the earlier post except in relation to point 1 (which you don't expand upon, but which from the Wikipedia policy point of view, is the one point that is worth going into detail on). Although Tgeorgescu can be criticized for verbosity, his post only states the obvious: he doesn't suggest that theology is an "objective science". He doesn't present a clergyperson/scholar dichotomy in the way that you mean. He doesn't suggest that peer-review is a certification of truthfulness or “scientific” accuracy. He does, however, suggest that peer-review makes for a reliable source in the Wikipedia term of art. And quite rightly so. The last 2 sentences seem to be on a different subject altogether. DeCausa (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

It seemed to me that he suggested all of those things. If I got that impression, I'm sure others did too, which is why I felt that clarification was necessary. No offense intended to the writer of the post. --Kicheko (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, then let me correct the impression: theologians can be scholars, but when they write as historians they write science, not theology, and are judged by other scientists. This is what I meant by following scientific consensus. Writing the history of the New Testament and Christianity or of the Hebrew Bible and Judaism does imply that one should have knowledge of theology. It is just that a historian is not called to pass judgment upon which is the right doctrine which puts the believers in a right standing before God, he/she just say if this doctrine was popular, when it was popular, in which group was it popular, who disagreed with it, what was it aimed against and so on, claims which are subject to the empiric-analytic model of science. The debate about objectivity in science is too elaborate for developing it here, but I point to Wallace and Wolf's claim from Contemporary Sociological Theory that although perfect objectivity is unattainable, scientists should strive towards (more) objectivity. And indeed, peer-review and print-published in a serious journal means that an article is a reliable source according to Wikipedia policies. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Misleading translations regarding the breaking of the third seal

The summary of the breaking of the third seal currently given in the article reads as follows:

"Third Seal: A black horse appears, whose rider has "a pair of balances in his hand", where a voice then says, "A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine." (6:5-6)"

This is misleading because the actual coin named was the Denarius, which was equivalent to an entire day's wages for most laborers of the time, rather than a Penny#Value, which, in addition to not being a type of coin that was extant of the time that the book of Revelations was written, is also effectively worthless (this includes British pennies, to which the translation in question refers) and therefore completely reverses the meaning of the quote.

A more accurate translation would be: "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.6.113 (talk) 20:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Publish a translation which is recognized by scholars and/or churches, or that becomes traditional, and we'll use it. While what you have to say is accurate, we don't take original research, and we don't alter quotes just to match original research. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Biblos Dot Com offers translations from several less misleading sources. Young's Literal Translation reads "and I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, 'A measure of wheat for a denary, and three measures of barley for a denary,' and 'The oil and the wine thou mayest not injure.'"; International Standard Version reads "I heard what sounded like a voice from among the four living creatures, saying, 'A quart of wheat for a denarius, or three quarts of barley for a denarius. But don't damage the olive oil or the wine!'"; New Living Translation reads "And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, 'A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine.'"; the God's Word Translation reads "I heard what sounded like a voice from among the four living creatures, saying, 'A quart of wheat for a day's pay or three quarts of barley for a day's pay. But do not damage the olive oil and the wine.'" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.6.113 (talk) 21:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I like the ISV one. Dougweller (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

"In the Divine Liturgy"

Said "It remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church": it's true but I'm afraid if it misleads readers this book may be read in a certain other office (Matins, Vespers, etc). IIRC and as far as I heard it's never read in any liturgical prayer. Can anyone have a source which can give a more specific description? --Aphaia (talk) 00:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC) ：P.S. In my mother language source I found a comment "some phrases are taken from The Book of Revelation in liturgical services" (unfortunately no examples were given there) so it seems to meat we retain this part as is. --Aphaia (talk) 11:14, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Two notes on the Robinson quotation

First, the quotation did read "It is the pidgin Greek of someone who appears to know exactly what he is about[to say]". The original in fact reads "...what he is about and whether...." Needless to say, as anyone familiar with idiomatic American English knowing 'what you are about' and knowing 'what you are about to say' are thoroughly different things, so I'll assume the restoration of the quotation to the former is uncontroversial, though noting it here anyway. The other issue is that for some reason the quotation and its companion are sourced to a random text ('Do You Know Greek') rather than the book they are actually from. This seems particularly strange as google has enough of the book to allow me to have checked the above quotation so there is no barrier for someone wanting to give the right page citation even if they do not have the book. I have left this unchanged in case there is some reason for citing a book which - judging from the title - is an introduction to Koine rather than the book the quotations were originally published in, even named in the body. I'd urge something with greater 'ownership' of the page to make the necessary change - I'm really just a passer by so don't want to step on toes needlessly. 94.193.220.27 (talk) 18:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

New stuff goes at the bottom. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm about to start a class, or I'd get to work on it. Could someone else please get to work on this? Ian.thomson (talk) 20:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

In the section " Academic Interpretations"

In the Section Academic Interpretations of the Article it reads: "The eventual exclusion of other contemporary apocalyptic literature from the canon [...]"

Can someone provide examples of "other contemporary Apocalyptic literature" which was not included in the canon, and cite apart from which these pieces of literature were, when they were rejected by the church, and which churches in particular (i.e. synod of Nicaea), etc.? Also, if you happen to make this addition or change to the article I would greatly appreciate a personal message, as a reminder to help me with current research. ____Ἑλλαιβάριος Ellaivarios____ 17:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

"Seven is considered the number of perfection in Christianity"?

The footnote for this statement, under 'Literary structure', leads to www.carm.org, a "Christian apologetics" site, where we find this text: "About The Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry CARM is a 501(c)3, non-profit, Christian ministry dedicated to the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ and the promotion and defense of the Christian Gospel, Doctrine, and Theology. CARM analyzes religions such as Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, Universalism, Wicca, etc., and compares them to the Bible. We also analyze secular ideas such as abortion, atheism, evolution, and relativism. In all our analyses we use logic and evidence to defend Christianity and promote the truth of the Bible which is the inspired word of God. Check out the Navigation Bar on the left to see what CARM has to offer." Not sure we have a reliable source here, and the claim is certainly somewhat novel. -- Jo3sampl (talk) 03:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

See Biblical numerology. It also references CARM, but references a Catholic Study Bible, as well. This is a fairly standard claim IMO. Daniel, Ezekiel and it's derivative, Revelation, are really "into" numerology. But these are (to those authors) like the phrases today, "You look like a million bucks;" "I feel like two cents." Our cultural, more materialistic, uses money! Student7 (talk) 22:09, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I have brought CARM up at WP:RSN as this personal website really doesn't qualify as a reliable source, although it's used in a lot of articles. I'll remove it from this one. Dougweller (talk) 16:42, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Criticism Section

User Zytigon has added a reference to some 2007 criticism by Robert Price at the beginning of this section. I don't know enough to know whether Price's criticism is significant enough to be included. It's not clear why he should be included, unlike Jefferson, Martin Luther and George Bernard Shaw, who are quite well known. If this reference is included, there should be some context as to why it is included. Also, the section could use some reorganization. After the Price reference, the next paragraph starts out with a 19th Century critic, but the same paragraph includes Jefferson, Friedrich Engels & George Bernard Shaw. The next paragraph discusses Martin Luther's views on Revelations.

What is the organizing principle? If nothing else is available, it could be placed in chronological order.

Finally, it appears that Zytigon has added the following to the end of the section:

"[81] Rev 12v3-4 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his head. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth."

What is its relevance to the criticism section? The sentence should probably be deleted. Ileanadu (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. A summary of Price's views would be appropriate at the end of the Criticism section, but just saying that he wrote a book is pointless. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.72.94 (talk) 12:23, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about "stature" since the author is essentially unknown, nevermind the identities attributed to him. And the method of book publication was fairly clunky. One copy at a time, manually. Not like putting it out on the internet! I think we can forget "instant fame" as an incentive!  :)

The book was one of the last canonized by the Christians. Martin Luther questioned it when he broke from the church, but ultimately accepted it. Taken literally, it's a bit much. Taken allegorically, not quite that bad. I would imagine it was the concern that someone would take it literally that bothered the early theologians and Luther. Ultimately, all Christians accept it as "inspired" by God. Student7 (talk) 12:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

"Ultimately, all Christians accept it as "inspired" by God." <-- Not true. kornbelt888

Eschatology-oriented edits

A lot of the content of all these eschatology pages was getting duplicated, because each of the views had to be heard on each of the pages. I've moved much of the interpretations to their respective view pages (for example, taken the Futurist view of the Book of Revelation and put it on the Futurism (Christianity) page), in the hopes of minimizing duplication, keeping source pages unimpeded by eschatological disputes, and making it more clear what comprises each of the eschatologies. I've moved some of the comparisons among these views to the Christian eschatology page, so that the core differences can be contrasted in one place. Skinrider (talk) 14:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Basically a good idea, but i think it's a little too paired back. I think it would be appropriate to have say just one sentence on each, giving the basic headline. Otherwise the reader has to do a lot of click-throughs to get even the basic idea. DeCausa (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, sorry for mistaking it for vandalism. Did all information deleted from the article reach its new destination? Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:09, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Tgeorgescu, sorry, forgot to put an edit summary in the seven or so pages I edited. Bad habit of mine that I'll try to rectify (and would have prevented the vandalism misunderstanding). DeCausa, there's already a one sentence headline of each method of interpretation, does that satisfy your request? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skinrider (talk • contribs) 21:04, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

What happened to the page for The Marriage Supper of the Lamb? There is a redirect to this page but no details are given.99.0.37.134 (talk) 14:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

SO non-notable

Saw this buried in the article & thought better to surface it here for any treatment: (comes after 3rd para in #Dating section)

"I like what this guy is saying, BUT he is SO non-notable as to be too obscure for something this well-known. We need somebody notable IMO. This seems like a plug WP:SPAM for him

John W. Marshall dates the book to 69 or early 70 AD, saying it predates any formal separation of Christianity and Judaism, and that it is a thoroughly Jewish text."

Revert this if it messes with much. Manytexts (talk) 11:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Binding of Isaac DLC

I created the page "Wrath of the Lamb" for the purpose of redirecting to this page and to note that it's also the massive expansion pack for The Binding of Isaac. Users SiefkinDR and Theroadislong have edited the article to remove the redirect warning at the top. Thoughts about this? Soffredo (talk) 15:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

So why not redirect to The Binding of Isaac directly instead?Theroadislong (talk) 15:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The Book of Revelations talks about the event known as the Wrath of the Lamb. The Binding of Isaac named it's DLC after the Book of Revelations. That's why it should redirect to this article and have a notice at the top of the article. Soffredo (talk) 16:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Write an article about the Wrath of the Lamb and then do a re-direct. It's not a re-direct from this page. DeCausa (talk) 16:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

My objection was that it appeared like a promotion of a commercial product at the top of an article on a completely different subject. I agree with the above comment, why not redirect directly?SiefkinDR (talk) 15:50, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The redirect is absurd. It's got nothing whatsover to do with this article. Per WP:BRD, I've taken it out pending any consensus emerging for its inclusion. See WP:BURDEN. DeCausa (talk) 16:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Many refer to the DLC as simply Wrath of the Lamb. How is it absurd? Soffredo (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the redirect should go directly to the game page. It is absurd that it would go through this page. If you put redirect notices on this page for everything that loosely refers to something from the Book of Revelation, that's all the page would be made up of. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 16:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. DeCausa (talk) 16:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Resolved - Wrath of the Lamb now redirects to The Binding of Isaac (video game)#Expansion instead of this page. However, {{Redirect}} is being used on that page now. Any further discussions should be brought to Talk:The Binding of Isaac (video game). Soffredo (talk) 19:03, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The name of the Book is Incorrect in the article

From the beginning of the article: The Book of the Revelation of John, often referred to as the Book of Revelation or simply Revelation

This is incorrect.

The name of the book of Revelation is: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The book titles itself in the first chapter, first verse: Revelation 1:1 - THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavisDWiki (talk • contribs) 04:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, here we mention its name as commonly used in mainstream sources. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:26, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

E.g., just think of calling the Gospel of Matthew as "This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah". Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:29, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The book doesn't "title itself". There is no title to the book as such. Subsequently, the book has been given titles, which is a different thing so let's not claim it has a one true authentic title. The King James Bible titles it "the Book of Revelation of St John the Divine". The New Jerusalem Bible calls it "The Book of the Revelation to John". Looking at Google, the most common references are simple to the "Book of Revelation" and then to "Book of Revelation of St. John". I therefore have amended the opening to read: "The Book of the Revelation, also known as the Book of Revelation of St John the Divine (in reference to its author) or Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ (in reference to its opening line)..." DeCausa (talk) 17:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Having looked at this again, it seems the lead is now almost entirely taken up with the title issue, and doesn't comply with WP:LEAD. I have therefore moved it to its own section in the article and written a new lead with the aim of summarizing the main points in the article. DeCausa (talk) 16:09, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

What is your source for the author of the book not having a title? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.21.59.9 (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Jung quote in note 55

I'm new here. The quote attributed to C.G. Jung in note 55 does not support its referrent, and I will try to explain why. (Sorry, but that "critics who deny" phrase looks so thin.)

Anyway, I think the article would be improved  by removing that phrase and note 55, and possibly by bringing Jung back into the Interpretations section. (I'll try to make a separate note about that.)

Although Memories, Dreams, and Reflections is made up of Jung's writings and utterances, the book is not a planned, comprehensive or scholarly composition on par with his other published works.

The quote is not Jung's opinion of the spiritual value of the scripture, and so does not support the assertion that Jung might be included among "critics who deny any spiritual value to Revelation at all."

Here and throughout his writings, Jung is highly critical of mainstream theological tenets for what he perceived as a loss of true, inner religiosity through an over-emphasis on convention, rules of faith, the narrowness of which denies spiritual significance to visions, mystical experiences, prophecies, etc. He glibly avoids getting into the subject, not only because "no one believes in them and the whole subject is felt to be an embarrassing one..." (in other words, because the mainstream doesn't quite know how to handle Revelations), but also because he had recently (1952) and quite controversially treated Revelations' "transparent prophecies" in some depth.

Jung wrote at length on Revelations in the later chapters of his book Answer to Job. Whether one embraces his theses or not, Jung explicitly presents this scripture as spiritually valid, important, relevant, and valuable.

If Jung's thought on such things matters -- and obviously I think it does -- would it not improve this article to bring him in elsewhere? HudMcCoy (talk) 00:15, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

My editing of Dating

I also shortened the "Dating" section as well. There were points in the section that seemed as if they came directly from a book. Basically, I kept the main points of the section, and deleted all the unimportant details.Glorthac (talk) 03:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Revelation 21:1 quotes 2 Peter 3:10, suggesting that the former may have been written near to the time of the latter. Second Peter & Jude both date to c.65AD, near to the beginning of the First Jewish War in 66AD. Perhaps a professional could quote a current source, and so improve the present article? 66.235.38.214 (talk) 12:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Statements like "the Book X has a date of Y" is of little value. Since dating is hotly debated, if one asserts a date, then evidence is required with argument if one wishes to be believed at all. How do you know when Jude was written?

Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more." 2 Peter 3:10 "10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

A quote? For crying out loud! People up and say just about any nonsense about the Bible. (EnochBethany (talk) 05:56, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

Tenney is not a reliable source

This is in the lead. modern scholars are divided between the apostolic view and several alternative hypotheses which have been put forth in the last hundred years or so.<ref>Merrill C. Tenney, gen. ed. "Revelation, Book of the." ''Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible.'' Vol. 5 (Q-Z). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2009.</ref>

This is hardly a reliable source, especially as Tenney died in 1985 and here he is editing a book 24 years later. Zondervan is a well-regarded only within Christian circles. Is there a historical-critical scholar who thinks that the author of Revelation wrote John? It's not an open issue in mainstream scholarship. To say that it's an open issue is misleading. It's only an open issue for those outside the mainstream. Leadwind (talk) 16:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Tenney is a very reliable source. Tenney did not edit any book 24 years after his death! Zondervan is owned by Rupert Murdoch!!! You think Rupert is a Christian? What do you mean by "historical-critical scholar"? You think that everybody who is deluded by the JEDP theory of the Pentateuch also denies that John wrote Revelation? Where is your proof of that one? How do you prove what is "mainstream"? You mean that those who choose the broad road that leads to destruction are the authorities on God's Word? Do you think that scoffing proves something? (EnochBethany (talk) 06:10, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

Leadwind, I think you just said this, above. You seem to think that a work is "academic," "mainstream," or "scholarly" only if it shares the positions that you personally support. Yet when I was studying for my graduate degree in theology, I studied under professors who hold Ph.Ds, have full-time university faculty positions, and publish on a regular basis (it was required of them). No one could accuse them of not being academic or scholarly. Yet each of them was opinionated in their own particular way and they did not conform to any kind of a "mainstream" stereotype. Similarly, the publications you demean are put together by respected scholars. You can't exclude them from the conversation just because you don't like the positions they hold.

In theology, unlike some areas of study, things are never black and white. The world of contemporary theology is very diverse. It does not have a universally accepted position on just about anything. On top of that, you have the accumulation of 2,000 years of theological history which is still very much a part of the discussion today. It is a huge mistake to take one little blip from that huge radar screen and dogmatically insist that it is the only valid position. This is a kind of intellectual tyranny which has no place on Wiki. Your positions should most definitely be covered in an objective and unbiased way, and even though many people won't agree with them, they have no right to interfere with that. But you, in turn, have to extend that same privilege to others, and you have to do so without implying that they are outdated or unscholarly. For example, your addition to the introduction is clearly intended to bias the statement on authorship in a particular direction. It should have been included in a section dedicated to that viewpoint in the body of the article.

Here's a quote from the first section on this discussion page. It sums up in one sentence what makes Wiki so special: --gdm (talk) 17:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

"Wikipedia performs a uniquely valuable role in putting side by side, ideas which would otherwise probably never share the page." Coxparra (talk) 08:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

gdm, please cite WP policy or guidelines to back up your statements. WP says to give preponderance to the views that predominate in scholarship. The view that the Apostle John didn't write Revelation predominates. That's the view that a WP article should emphasize. It's really pretty simple. Stick to what the experts say. The experts predominantly say that the apostle didn't write John. It doesn't matter what you or I think. What matters is what the experts say. Leadwind (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, since when are we discussing theology? This issue is one of history. Which actual historical person actually wrote this text? When we get to theology, there's no consensus, but as long as we're talking about plain history, the historians have pretty much come to agreement on this issue. Leadwind (talk) 19:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm using theology in the broad sense, which encompasses every aspect of Biblical study, even in a secular environment. As for the consensus you appeal to, it simply doesn't exist, except within very limited circles of scholarship. Many published authors will claim that there is a consensus behind their position, because it strengthens their argument. But in reality, the "consensus" is just a "consensus of like-minded scholars," which is not quite the same thing. Strictly speaking, they're not lying, but they're not telling the whole truth either. You seem to be very much against the unbiased inclusion of multiple viewpoints.--gdm (talk) 19:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

"You seem to be very much against the unbiased inclusion of multiple viewpoints." Not at all. I'm against the biased inclusion of multiple viewpoints. I want to follow WP policy and let the predominant view predominate. Where we differ is simply on the question of whether there is a dominant, mainstream view to be given precedence (that's what I think) or whether there are lots of scholarly opinions with no predominant view (your view, unless I'm being unfair). Let's just find the best, current sources and see what they say. Then you and I can agree on the facts and get on with editing the article. Now in my experience those who hold a minority view like to deny that there is a majority view, but treating a minority view as of equal weight to a majority view is a violation of WP:NPOV. Leadwind (talk) 12:23, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

On the surface of it, what you're saying makes sense. But what you're not making allowance for is that "predominant view," like "mainstream," is all a matter of which side of the fence you're on. What you think is predominant is totally fringe to someone else, and they can produce just as many publications to support their view as you can to support yours. ("But my sources are better than theirs," you will say. They'll say the same thing back to you, and where does that get us? Precisely nowhere!) If you want to avoid contention and negative editing, you have to present the major views on equal terms - objectively, neutrally, and without value judgments (even subtle or implied ones). This is my experience on this site, and I've seen it borne out on all of Wiki's theological sites, many of which continue to be contentious because one side or the other insists that their position be represented as the "mainstream" or "predominant" view. It's not scholarly, and it's not necessary. --gdm (talk) 00:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

So we agree that the predominant view should be given priority if it can be identified but we disagree on whether a predominant view can be identified. You say that since we can't agree on which view predominates, we should treat the views equally. Fair enough, I'll proceed only where a predominant view is clear. Leadwind (talk) 22:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Need for a redirect

The full title of the book is "The Revelation of St. John the Divine", but at present, if one puts in a Wikilink to The Revelation of St. John the Divine, it will be red. Can some one please sort out things so that if one types that in, it gets redirected here? Many thanks, ACEOREVIVED (talk) 19:48, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone's already taken care of it, apparently. It's a working link now.... Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:51, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The Full name of the Book is Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, in English "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." (EnochBethany (talk) 06:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

Interpretations of Numerolgy and Lexarithmic stuff

Perhaps it would be worhtwile expanding the article by mentioning ancient and modern interpretations of numerology and lexarithmic interpretations, i.e. how each letter is a number and Greek, and how the Emperor Nero's name itself comes to be the number 666 in Greek χ'ξ'ς (six hundred sixty six), or ςςς (six,six,six) as separate integers. I've come across various such interpretations, and perhaps they would be worthy of mention.

(And just for trivia's sake, i'd like to mention when you type ςςς in Greek, it is the equivalent of www, when you enter the internet, LOL)

____Ἑλλαιβάριος Ellaivarios____ 17:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

They have extensive footnotes (which I haven't checked) at Number_of_the_Beast#As_Nero. "www." sounds a lot better an explanation!  :) Student7 (talk) 21:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

ςςς (stigma stigma stigma) does not mean six hundred sixty-six in Greek at all, though ς or ϝ (digamma) means 6. Using Greek numbers (which are letters given numerical significance), you cannot write six hundred sixty-six by repeating the number 6 three times. Greek numbers do not have place value like Arabic numerals do. Thus 666 is NOT a good representation of the number of the beast at all. The number is six hundred sixty-six ( χξς ) in Greek, though when you look at old papyri you are likely to find stigma written as c (same shape as sigma). (EnochBethany (talk) 06:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

Most modern scholars believe" Really?

This kind of statement is likely invalid. Who are the scholars? Is there really common ground on who the "scholars" are and are not? And who took the poll? What is the modern era? You start after the Renaissance? BTW, I agree with the date attached to the comment; but I think this kind of statement is not to be believed. (EnochBethany (talk) 00:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

That's referenced in the Date section to Robert H. Mounce. "The Book of Revelation", pg. 15–16. Cambridge: Eerdman's. A link is provided in the footnote. Editor2020 (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

And if it is referenced then at that point the reference is likely not a reliable source. (EnochBethany (talk) 07:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

I'm pretty sure Editor2020's saying that the answer to your question is is found by checking the footnote for the sentence you've mentioned discussing, where it takes you to the citation for that sentence, Mounce's book, the citation including this link to (most of) the book. If you want to argue against the source cited, you can either:

• Present counter reliable academic sources
• Read WP:No original research and not make personal arguments against the book.

Ian.thomson (talk) 07:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

There Is No Such Book in the Bible as "Revelations"

The (short) name of the book in English is Revelation, not Revelations (an alternative is Apocalypse). (EnochBethany (talk) 05:49, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

New sections go at the bottom. And the article doesn't call it Revelations at any point. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:56, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

No one said that the article calls it Revelations. However, on this talk page "Revelations" is employed. (EnochBethany (talk) 06:30, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

Talk pages are for article improvement. What does that have to do with article improvement? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

The observation that there is no such book as "Revelations" contributes to the research on the topic. For it indicates that secondary sources which refer to "Revelations" are likely to be unreliable. What does that comment you just made have to do with article improvement? (EnochBethany (talk) 07:02, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

Wow. Many no. So wrong. Much silly. It indicates a printed slip of the tongue, as it were, caused by common misuse. If someone quoted from a secondary source and it used "revelations," or you could bring in a quote from one of the articles references after finding that it does indeed use "revelations," then that would indicate that a secondary source in this article uses may not be reliable because it uses "revelations." And why did it take you so many posts to get to this supposed point ?

Comments on this page are not secondary sources either. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Surely the name of the last book in the Bible is not "Revelation," "Revelations," or "The Book of Revelation." It is "The Revelation to John." Please fix this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.204.192.221 (talk) 05:40, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Can we expand upon the interpretation sections?

The interpretation section only explains the beliefs of various denominations in broad terms, like the Catholic Church teaches amillenialism. Well, DUH! I'd prefer for the interpretation section to explain the interpretations in detail, like: "The Catholic Church teaches the first seal and the Rider on the white horse as Christ who has conquered and is conquering through the Holy Spirit and His Church."

This is probably what people are coming to wikipedia to figure out, anyway. Who would only want to know something in broad terms?Glorthac (talk) 18:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

If you think that Bible commentaries written by Romanists agree on the interpetation of particular verses, I suggest you go to your local Romanist seminary's library, pull commentaries off the shelf, and compare the comments. (EnochBethany (talk) 06:00, 20 February 2014 (UTC))

This thread is over three years old, why are you responding to it? What purpose does it serve to improve the article? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I believe that many people who look to this source of information aim to increase their understanding of what possible interpretations of the final book of the bible means. Without providing some original thougt on this, there may be some who leave unedified and uneducated beyond their own interpretations of the deeply mystifying words meanings. Some phrases have deep meanings that aer not just leical, but historical, religiously repetitive, recurrent reincarnataions of previous prophecy nad other mysterious analogies. I would suggest that a page be created for each section that is being debated that they be ordered according to the schools of hought that are recognised and the area of Wikimedia's Blight: Original Thought to-Stamped-Out-Without-Second-Thought. Vision2020 (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

This secion of the bible is yet to be fulfilled and as such any written documentation is purely theory and orginal thought. We as editors and as reviewers of it can only make sure that the content is not plagiarised or ethically corrupt yet allow for new ideas to be promulgated that an educated mind might make a connection between a new thought and printed corroboration in a later edition of a new work in progress. We don't know what it means, but we can only guess and hope that the faith placed in those guesses be accurate to redeem the lost. Vision2020 (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

An example of original thought might be the expansion of the measurements of a few verses describing the New Heaven and New Earth into an essay on possibilities that it therefore presents to the modern readers' mind. To this end I have created an unexpanded link to a non-existant page that maybe I might edit to expose such a flaw in the very design of extreme intolerance of Wikimedia reviewers' attitude towards original thought that cannot be copyrighted being placed on an open-source platform such as this. The complete lack of original thought on Wikimedia precludes it from becoming the foremost Original source of original work and therby becomes the foremost source of secondary (incomplete) work at best. The placement of original thought and source on Wikimedia means that it becomes the source and not a mirror and therefore the content becomes truly copyrighted as part of the point of the GPL 3.0 completely to fulfill its intentions. Just a thought for "Non-scientific, non-substantive and inconclusive" veins of personal/ professional research. Just a thought Vision2020 (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

No idea what you are trying to say but if you try to put "original thought" in this article, or any other article in Wikipedia, it will be deleted. DeCausa (talk) 05:39, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

666 more information

Can we add to the section on 666 something like 666 is mentioned 2 other times in the bible

1 Kings 10:14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents

and

Ezra 2:13 13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.

because Solomons life is more focused on in the bible than Adonikams the verse 'number of a man' In Revelation 13:18 may be referring to king Solomon.

??? and what about a reference to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capernaum

A mosaic uncovered in 1991 shows an image of the Woman and Dragon motif mentioned in the Christian biblical book of the "Revelation" (of St. John_. It shows a woman about to give birth to a child as a dragon waits to devour it.

Themainman69 (talk) 06:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, you need a proper source to prove such a statement that involves Revelations. -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 06:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The bit about 666 is self evident someone can open a bible in front of them and find the verse or look at a bible online. The bit about capernaum what about this

http:// www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/capernaum-synagogue.html A mosaic uncovered in 1991 shows an image of the Woman and Dragon motif mentioned in the Christian biblical book Revelation of St.John. It shows a woman about to give birth to a child as a dragon waits to devour it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Themainman69 (talk • contribs)

Anything that was truly "self-evident" would still be documented in a source. On Wikipedia, you always cite a reliable source for new information. Reliable sources include academic or journalistic articles, scholarly books, and so on. Random websites are generally not acceptable. In fact, the site you cite quotes Wikipedia (and a part that has been removed for lack of sourcing, at that), which is cyclical sourcing, which we do not accept.

The 1 Kings and Ezra verses is already covered in 666 (number), which is about random coincidences with that number. This article is about the whole Book of Revelation, only discussing other works that are generally accepted by academics as truly accepted as having influenced the Book of Revelation, or have been accepted by theologians as having a meaningful connection with Revelation on more grounds than "the numbers are the same, so there must be some deeper meaning." Ian.thomson (talk) 14:18, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Well because the 'number of the beast' is the 'number of a man (Solomon)' and beast is used as analogy in the book of Daniel for empire or kingdom which makes the beast an empire to do with Solomon. The previous empires in Daniel were in the middle east. Solomon lived on the same piece of land that is now Palestine/modern Israel and the jewish people in there today want to re build the temple.

-Solomon built the 1 temple. -The hexagram on Israels flag is also known as the seal of Solomon. -Modern Israel is 1 of the 2 beasts mentioned in Revelation 13. -The mark of the beast is the hexagram.

I think people should be warned about this. Themainman69 (talk) 19:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

"Things you just thought of one day" not listed at WP:Identifying reliable sources. Your claims do not have an academic source, and are well outside any sort of mainstream or notable scholarship. We do not serve as a pulpit to issue warnings from. Furthermore, most of your points are logically disconnected, or non sequiturs. Wikipedia does not care about "the truth", it only goes with what is verifiable, which in this case means simply summarizing what mainstream academic sources state.

Although I am about to link to our articles on this, I am not citing our articles on the subject, but pointing you to the reliable sources summarized and cited in those articles.

Your claims require simultaneously viewing the Christian Bible as both a work of the Beast (Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes are traditionally attributed to Solomon; and the Books of Kings hails the majority of Solomon's deeds and views his misdeeds as tragic mistakes instead of evil sins) as well as divinely inspired (for Revelation to have any authority). If one wishes to religiously separate the Old and New Testaments (a la the heresiarch Marcion), one still has to consider that Solomon is one of Jesus's ancestors, and Christianity holds that Jesus was the legitimate heir to Solomon's throne. Given that the Bible (Christian or Jewish) has an overwhelmingly positive view of Solomon, and that John of Patmos (the author of Revelation) was writing of either contemporary or future events, there is no reason to connect Solomon's 666 talents to the number of the beast. It is no insult to God's will if we believe that some things are just coincidences and not magically connected. Nero Caesar, whose name does come out to 666 in the alphanumerical codes of the time, was in charge of the empire that was oppressing Christianity. Occam's razor would leave that a more likely possibility.

The Bible regards the destruction of Solomon's temple as a catastrophe. The second temple was not regarded as a bad thing in itself, as the infant Jesus had the standard Jewish ceremonies performed on Him there, and the apostle Paul continued observing Jewish practices there even after becoming a Christian (in Acts 23:6, he even claims to be a Pharisee while being put on trial). It is only Christian scriptures (such as Revelation), written by Christians for Christians, after Judaism and Christianity split, that regard building a third temple as something bad. Again, Occam's razor (nay, common courtesy and Luke 6:31) would make it easier to assume that the Jews are just trying to follow their religion rather than trying to carry out some evil scheme only plotted out in scriptures they utterly reject.

Then there's the hexagram, which is more commonly known as the Star of David, only became associated with Biblical monarchs less than 1500 years ago, and only became associated with Solomon thanks to medieval Islam. Plus, the hexagram isn't intrinsically to trade, as the Mark of the Beast is in Revelation. (And going back to Nero, the emperor made even common currency part of the imperial cult by stamping his face on all the money).

As for Israel being the Beast, the only future Israel mentioned in the Bible is the heavenly one, an earthly state is not mentioned. The Beast is mentioned in connection to Babylon, but Babylon is generally accepted by scholars as a code for Rome.

Believe whatever you want, but Wikipedia only hosts mainstream academic information, and does not "warn" people about the supposed end times. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Jesus had no earthly biological dad Mary was conceived of the holy spirit (Mathew) Mary came from David not through Solomons (cursed bloodline) this is one of the reasons judaic religion people rejected him as messiah because he is not from Davids bloodline on the fathers side. Beast is analogy for empire. Solomon is not the beast he is the 'number of a man'.Hexagram appears on the capernaum synagogue which at latest was built 1700 years ago ( i think earlier). Star of david is not from 1 or 2 samuel (Davids life) hence is not biblical. Babylon the great in rev 17 and 18 is provably using only the bible Jerusalem.

I added a new talk section on the babylon wiki page check it out if you want if any christians here i will msg you a little thing i wrote on Israel/Revelation if you want.

Themainman69 (talk) 06:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTFORUM as well as the policy prohibiting "original research". You need to find another website to host your ideas. This is not what Wikipedia is for. DeCausa (talk) 08:09, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposal for "Figures in Revelation" section

I'm not really happy with this section being in the body of the article, since it's just a portal to articles on persons and symbols. On the other hand, someone went to a lot of trouble to make it, and it does provide information that some readers might find useful. I think it would be better as a portal-template on the side of the article. I don't know how to make templates, but some other editor no doubt does. I'd like the views of other editors. 203.217.170.26 (talk) 05:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC) (Sorry, I keep forgetting to log in...)PiCo (talk) 05:33, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Sources?

This article has multiple issues involving sources, specifically the Interpretations section. Is there anyone willing to source, or should I just remove the no source content. The article will be very short if I do, so is there any objections? --Cheers-- JudeccaXIII (talk) 20:00, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Outline subdivisions

I dislike the subdivisioning of the section Outline, is it conventional and citeable? I find it unnatural that Before the Throne of God immediately follows in the same division, Act I, as the messages for seven churches of Asia. There the Revelations changes character from a prophetic vision with clear messages to an extremely mystical apocalyptic hallucination from Messages to Before the Throne, where most of the meaning is fairly obscure.

Is the subdivisioning really conventional or an editors arbitrary pick? If it is conventional it should be sourced. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 14:32, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

As you know, the inclusion of Revelation as part of the canon took a long time for the reasons you mention. Even Luther wanted to exclude it!

The Catholic Study Bible, which is fairly npov, does not use this strict outline. It has, rather two outlines: (!)

• I. Prologue (1, 1-3) or Opening Vision (1, 1-20)
• II. Letters to the Seven Churches (2,1-3,22) or (1,4 to 3.22)
• III. God and the Lamb in Heaven (4,1-5,14)
• IV. Visions of Cosmic Conflict ((6,1 - 16,21) or The Seven Seals, Trumpets and Plagues with Interludes
• V. Punishment of Babylon and the Destruction of Pagan Nations (17,1 - 20,15)
• VI. The New Creation (21,1 - 22,21) (or to 22,5)
• VII. Epilogue (22, 6-21)

Splitting the outline into "Acts" seems counter-historical and possibly profane. The word "Acts" should be replaced if nothing else is changed IMO.

So I assume that there are other differences by other researchers. We needn't accept one as (uh) gospel. The problem is reading it literally which is a bit of a caution, IMO. Or reading it, using cross-references to Ezekiel and Daniel (and a lot of other refs, as well), it starts to make some sense, though on a metaphorical plane. The author was clearly familiar with the rest of the bible, as most biblical writers were. So the "hallucinations" have imbedded "meaning," which is usually historical. Student7 (talk) 13:42, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I second the splitting of the outline into "Acts." It is disruptive, interpretive and causes things like the Second Woe to need to be cited twice in order to accommodate it. Unless it is sourced, it must be removed and discussed here until there is a consensus. My guess is it was the addition of some clever, self-thinking, Bible interpreting "genius" who was hell bent on inserting their POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.224.89 (talk) 22:22, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Rm three "acts." "Outline" really more like a very long summary. Maybe "outline" should be written out in full sentences. It is never really explained, but rather interpreted. Student7 (talk) 22:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Until about a year or 2 ago (from memory) this article was shaped by Revelation being a piece of literature: it had headings such as "plot" "characters" etc. I quite liked it, but it was a little contrived. It got changed along the way at some point - I haven't followed this article that closely. It may be that the "Acts" were a left-over from that approach. I don't think it matters either way. One thing I do think is inappropriate and has no place as a criticism of any text in Wikipedia is the description of that approach as "profane". Whether or not it is "profane" is utterly irrelevant. DeCausa (talk) 18:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Try Wiktionary:profane, second or third definition. Profane being secular. Or pov disrespectful (third definition). Student7 (talk) 19:24, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

No, it's still not acceptable. I propose using the catholic convention, since it has some 1,500,000,000 backing, the current homebrew is just ugly. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 18:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

called "John"

That we use the typical English names for apostles, evangelists etc. all over the place is one thing, but do we really have to pretend that these are the names used in the Bible? The Bible didn't call anyone "John", the names used are Ιωάννης (Ioannes (with the 'e' pronounced like in "bed", but long), Latinized as Johannes) or יוחנן (Yohanan). 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:C421:D27F:537:E61E (talk) 01:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

The English Bibles almost always translate Ιωάννης to John. This is the English Wikipedia, neither the Greek nor the Hebrew. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 18:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Scholarly interpretation

This article needs to have a clear section that summarizes the modern consensus scholarly interpretation of the book and what the symbolism therein refers to. The article as it stands merely bombards its readers with a load of fantastic spins to the book that have been made in the last 2 millenia. It is crucial to explain FIRST what the book ACTUALLY meant by whoever wrote it, and then, we can have all the colourful ways subsesquent Christian groups intrepreted it. Its also quite difficult to find this info with an internet search, as google is invariably swamped by mindless nonsense put out by 101 churches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.227.163 (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

It's just not so simple to state "what the book actually meant by whoever wrote it". It is rather the case that we can only describe "what the book actually meant, according to some church or scholar". Text do not have unequivocal and unambiguous meanings, this is especially true for texts heavily employing cryptic symbols. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

The consensus of modern secular bible scholars as to the genuine meaning of the book should be clearly explained in a section of the article. At present it just isn't, and this is a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.227.163 (talk) 19:10, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

All information from Wikipedia comes (or should come) from mainstream scholarship, so unless explicitly stated otherwise (i.e. attributed to a specific church or tradition), all information from the article is based upon secular mainstream scholarship. I don't know if there is a consensus about the meaning of the Apocalypse, but there are facts about it, such as literary genre, historical circumstances, the post-Enlightenment requirement of the historical method of methodological naturalism does not allow for an ancient author having accurate knowledge of his distant future, etc. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:38, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

The imagery in Revelations is so bizarre and fantastical that it is impossible to give a down-to-earth explanation of what it means. Everything seems symbolic, but there are countless ways of "de-coding" it, none of them "official". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.119.6 (talk) 19:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

86.176.227.163, I understand your frustration. While the article does contain some useful scholarly information, it seems to be dominated by a section on interpretation that is poorly organised and heavily weighted towards Christian denominational beliefs rather than scholarly literature. You can find bits and pieces of helpful information on the meaning of Revelation scattered through the article, particularly in section one (Composition and Setting) and in the embarrassingly short footnote devoted to academic views.

I would say there is broad agreement that the book addresses a situation of occasional or sporadic persecution in the cities of the Roman province of Asia Minor sometime in the last third of the first century CE. A battle for authority is clearly being fought between John and his followers who believe that Rome is about to be punished for her sins, and opponents who advocate a more integrated approach to Greco-Roman society (possibly Pauline). The author reinforces a belief evidenced in the gospel of Mark that the fall of Jerusalem signified Jesus' return was imminent. The main vision of the book starts with a vision of a crucified lamb in heaven and this in turn initiates the woes of the "last days" spoken of by the prophet Daniel (e.g. 12:1), a limited period of war and pestilence that climaxes in the activity of the beasts and the persecution of the faithful. The second half of the book clearly identifies the beast as the Roman Empire and the prostitute who sits on her as the city of Rome (the city on seven hills, the 'great city that rules over the kings of the earth, ch 17). John takes great delight in predicting her downfall, described in thinly veiled terms as the fall of "Babylon" (a designation for Rome used in other apocalyptic works of the period), and in anticipating exceptional rewards for Christian martyrs, the descent from heaven of a "new" Jerusalem, and the final resurrection of the remaining dead in a climatic judgment scene.

If you're interested in some helpful and accessible scholarly works, I would recommend Elizabeth Fiorenza's short commentary, Invitation to the Book of Revelation; Alela Yarbro Collins' The Combat Myth in the Book of Revelation; and Imperial Cults and the Apocalypse of John, by Steven Friesen. --Sineaste (talk) 15:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Opening sentence is incorrect.

Revelation, and the idea of an impending Apocalypse, are "central" to some of the newer Protestant denominations, particular in the US, but are not "central" in the older mainstream denominations. There are many different ways of interpreting "The Kingom of Heaven is at hand" that do not involve the world blowing up. It can be translated as, "It is right here, but you just can't see it, because you're not looking." Revelation wasn't tacked onto the NT until 419, and it was a controversial move that many Christian theologians rejected. So how could it be "central" when it wasn't even there for four centuries? I didn't correct the sentence because someone would revert it. But it needs to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.119.6 (talk) 19:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that Revelation is not central to the eschatology of the vast majority of Christians. It tends to be favored by fundamentalist, Protestant denominations with dogmatic views about end-of-the-world scenarios and timetables. However, the suggestion that it just popped up in the fifth century out of nowhere is a little silly. If no Christian groups had valued it over the preceding four centuries there wouldn't have been any debate about its inclusion in the canon and that inclusion would never have occurred. --Sineaste (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I propose a phrase and internal link referencing the Biblical cosmology that this book illustrates. The focus is human destiny, but the context is cosmic. Church of the Rain (talk) 13:57, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

No, that would be WP:OR. This discussion should be a discussion of the sources not individual editor views. The fundamental problem is that the Interpretation section is very poor - and per WP:LEAD, the lead should simply be a summary of what's in the article. At the moment, the Interpretation section appears to be a randomly picked (cherry picked?) selection of denominational interpretations. It should go through all the major denominations on a systematic basis, picking up views of prominent theologians as part of the survey. With regard to whether it is central only to Protestant fundamentalist eschatology, certainly this Catholic source refers to its eschalogical underpinning so I'm not convinced that's correct. Anyway, the way forward has got to be a proper sourced WP:NPOV analysis in the Interpretation section (that is capturing all the notable Christian interpretations on a proportionate basis) and then making the lead reflect that. DeCausa (talk) 15:50, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Not my original research see http://www.worldcat.org/title/imperial-cults-and-the-apocalypse-of-john-reading-revelation-in-the-ruins/oclc/5104725870&referer=brief_results as one source. Also http://www.worldcat.org/title/silence-and-praise-rhetorical-cosmology-and-political-theology-in-the-book-of-revelation/oclc/881180781&referer=brief_results Church of the Rain (talk) 17:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what those links are supposed to demonstrate. WP:NPOV is about "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" not cherry picking. Also, could you please indent your posts per WP:THREAD. Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 19:39, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Brian Daley's "Apocalypticism in Early Christianity" in I,Encyc of Apocalypticism (2002) p 6 notes that the monastic groups not the church wanted to "battle with the demons that ruled this cosmos" and the Latin West showed more interest in this book than the Greek East. The familiar words of Jesus "I am the Alpha and the Omega" denotes the "connection between the creation and the new creation and highlights the cosmic scope of John's theological horizon" (see Bauckham (1993) 50). I propose the "Book of Revelation" is qualified by placing a single word 'cosmology' in the first sentence. "The Book of Revelation is a book of the New Testament that occupies a central place in Christian cosmology and eschatology". By adding the word 'cosmology' we are simply stating that this material has that nature prior to saying that it is the sole representative of this type in the NT canon.Church of the Rain (talk) 02:57, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

My point is that to "fairly and proportionately" reflect the Christian interpretations, as reported in WP:RS, we have to make an assessment of what those interpretations are. If they are the only two sources that make reference to that interpretation, for example, then it would certainly be inappropriate to give them such prominence in the lead. This should be "bottom up". Fix the interpretation section with a proper survey of notable interpretations and it will be obvious what the lead should say. DeCausa (talk) 12:53, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Note from Rudolf Steiner lecture dating this to the year 395

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA266/English/UNK1999/19110305e01.html

So that mankind can evolve further and get into the spiritual there's always men from time to time who're more advanced than is permitted by the momentary stage of human development, and who have things to tell us about states of human evolution that reach far into the future. Such advanced beings must exist to lead men further. John, the writer of the Apocalypse, was such a man. When he wanted to write a revelation of the future, he told himself: If I write this book out of the whole surroundings in which I'm living here and now it'll be influenced by the self that's in my body, since I'm connected with everything around and in me. I must free myself from all of this. He had to place himself on something like a rock that served him as a firm support, on which he didn't wobble and wasn't influenced by anything that surged around and in him. And he moved himself to the evening to 9-30-395, to Patmos Island, as the sun had already disappeared under the horizon, though its effect could still be felt, and as the moon and stars appeared. The Virgin constellation was there in the western sky, irradiated by the last gleam of the sun that had set, with the moon under it. This picture is reproduced in one of the seals — the virgin with the radiating sun and the moon under her feet. Thus, all of these seals were produced out of deep mystical connections. John broke through the cover that surrounds us in this one direction — that of Virgo. There are 12 of these signs. Seven of them are good — the ones reproduced in the seals; the other five are more or less dangerous. Just as John chose this particular point in time and space to become completely separated from himself and all temporal things around him, so a Rosicrucian pupil must acquire a firm foundation in himself. The best way to do this is to let theosophical teachings work on us. Our astral body and thereby our etheric body become expanded by listening to theosophical ideas. This is the effect on anyone who hears anything about theosophy But the effect on those who are inclined towards theosophy is different than on those who aren't. The former feel the etheric body's expansion and fill it up with theosophical teachings, by accepting them. The other feel an emptiness in their etheric body through its expansion because they don't accept these ideas and so don't fill the expansion. Then doubt and skepticism arise through this emptiness. Whereas with the first men, it's like a pouring of oneself into the universe, which they can't let go too far, for they'll get a feeling of hollowness, of not feeling at home in these widths of space, like a fish that's taken out of water and can't live in air, because its organs haven't adapted themselves to this changed element. When a theosophist devotes himself to the teachings and his astral body expands evermore, he loses himself in this unfamiliar element One must avoid drowning here. And this is possible if one studies theosophy seriously, takes it in, elaborates it, and grasps it with feeling, not just with thinking and will, but permeates it completely with feeling. One can only do this with great earnestness. One must gain a firm support within oneself — like John when he wanted to write the Apocalypse and he transported himself to Patmos Island at sundown of Sept. 30, 395. The configuration of the sun, Virgo and moon on that evening can be checked astronomically, and this was done. From this materialistic science draws the conclusion: Therefore the Apocalypse was written at that time. And then we're told that science has ascertained this. That's the way science ascertains things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.246.206.191 (talk) 19:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

This only verifies the idea that Steiner was a New Age guru stating wingnut views, not a Bible scholar. I know of no Bible scholars who date the Book of Revelation to 30 September 395. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Figures in Revelation

I have made a little change to Archangel Michael's name. Maymichael2 (talk) 16:22, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Religious Tolerance...

Um, no offense, but why is this page being depicting the Book of Revelation like a made-up story? Despite anyone's own personal views here, we have to acknowledge that some people do subscribe to this belief as divine truth (including myself). How can you expect anyone except cynics and atheists to refer to this as reliable if the page comes off as being written from an atheist or cynic point of view? I mean, there's actually a part that says that the book of Revelation has a "whole host of colorful characters" or something to that effect. That doesn't even seem like it takes the Book to be serious. I think people editing this page should avoid using levity, in the same way that Christian editors should avoid religion promoting or leaving out valuable details (this site is about trying to provide information, not take a stance on whether or not the Bible is a historical account); therefore they should treat each page with equal respect. They take other religious beliefs seriously, even those featured in myth and legend, and I think Christianity deserves the same respect. RandyS0725 (talk) 06:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

• sigh* the whole thing is a silly made-up fairy-story, harry potter for the gullible masses. in fact i'd say it's actually been given far more credence here than it should have been in a serious encylopedia article HieronymousCrowley (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, although on the one hand it's my opinion that it is ludicrous to treat Revelation as anything but superstitious nonsense, we have to be NPOV as (inexplicably) large numbers think it's "divine truth". Having read through the article I think that, with 2 exception, it's pretty NPOV and balanced. (But I think a believer would find it difficult to distinguish between POV and NPOV when it comes to, for example, the Bible). The 2 exceptions are the "plot" and "characters" sections in "Literary Elements". Although I enjoyed reading these sections, they do come suspiciously close to ridicule. The Book deserves it, but it can't really be justified in wikipedia DeCausa (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is neutral, meaning that it describes the Bible and theological views as pertaining to a certain religion or religious group. It does not say that the Bible would be the word of God, but neither denies it, since only believers (or unbelievers) make such choices about holy books; Wikipedia does not make such choices. The article should be informative for Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, pagans, etc. It is neither a place for them to fight about who's right about God and religion, nor a platform for evangelizing or proselytizing. Mainstream theological views upon the Apocalypse can be rendered in the article, as long as they are not presented as fact, but as opinion clearly attributed to such religion or such religious group. Scientific analysis of the Apocalypse can be rendered as fact, as long as such conclusions are consensual among the scientists (historians, textual critics, scholars of religious studies, linguists, anthropologists, etc.). If they are not broadly accepted in the scientific world, they still can be rendered as minority opinions pertaining to this or that authoritative scholar. E.g. if a textual critic proved that the number 616 appears in some old manuscripts instead of 666, this is a fact, since the textual critic did not invent the manuscripts, he has only studied them and published articles about it in respectable scientific journals (print-published, peer-reviewed). My personal philosophy is that God does not talk to humans, but this is not a matter of scientific proof, but a philosophical persuasion. Even starting from this assumption, I find interesting to know how others think about the Apocalypse, what are the most popular theories about its meaning, what are the main theological viewpoints about it, how has it been considered during human history, how this or that literary critic has analyzed the aesthetic merits of the Apocalypse, how scholars see it, how activists for social change see it as a source of inspiration for shaping a new world, how it mesmerized the masses during the history of Christianity, how it was almost excluded from the canon of the New Testament, since some Church Fathers preferred the Apocalypse of Peter to the Apocalypse of John, or at least saw these books as having equal value. I say these not as mere personal opinions, but as an explanation of how the official Wikipedia policies about neutrality, reliable sources, notability, etc. apply to the article which we are discussing. Wikipedia has articles about many religious and theological issues, and as a rule of thumb the same basic rules apply to any theological or religious Wikipedia article. So, one's religious affiliation should be bracketed when writing such articles, and only viewpoints based upon reliable sources should be included in the article, indicating their sources in the footnotes or using small quotes in order to render their point. Don't think you're writing for the Sunday school or for a club of fellow atheists, but think of writing a scientific (academic) article about this subject. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Er...what's your point? You've written a very long essay saying what we all know anyway...but the point of this discussion is: does anything need to change in this Article? If so, what?DeCausa (talk) 18:38, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 19:02, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

My point was neither that it needs change nor that it doesn't need change. My point was that the article is/should/could become encyclopedic, and therefore it isn't silly to discuss the Apocalypse inside Wikipedia. It was a reaction to statements which seemed to ignore this point. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Because of Christian bias. Portillo (talk) 06:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It is a fact that Christian theologians care most about the Book of Revelation, therefore they produced most of the scholarship/theology about it. It is not a fault of describing several theological positions in respect to this book (Catholic, Protestant, Eastern-Orthodox) and its most usual interpretations. Such views are notable, and they should be rendered, as long as there's no claim like "this is the truth, according to Wikipedia," but rather "Catholics view it like this, Protestants like that, etc." In assigning these views to their respective authors there is no bias, it is just a statement that notable groups of people have produced notable views of this book. Of course, people who disbelieved this book are also rendered inside the article, but we should not overstate the importance of their views, since such views are not widespread. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

There's as much reason to treat religious texts as nonfiction as there is Lord of the Rings. We know the books were authored by people (sometimes not the specific person, mind), depicting fantastical images and claiming future-sight not possible, and there is thus absolutely no reason to consider them true. Arguing otherwise is to display grotesque bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.181.134 (talk) 03:49, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

John the Baptist Authorship

The last line in the authorship section reads:

"In her volume in the original Anchor Bible, J. Massyngberde Ford argues that the core of Revelation, chapters 4-11, was written by John the Baptist and later surrounded with a Christian beginning and ending.[13]"

Some quick Googling suggests that this viewpoint is held by a tiny minority, possibly even unique to Ms Ford. I think that the way it currently reads, this line gives UW to a fringe theory. It could also be considered OR, since the reference is to Ms Ford's publication and not a secondary source. I would propose deleting the sentence unless there is a secondary source citation. Bgovern (talk) 05:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Self-published source cited in the article

The article uses a source written and published by Kim Mark Lewis. That falls under WP:SPS and thus fails WP:IRS. A better source has to be found. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:11, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Number of the Great Beast

This article states that according to the end of Revelation of St. John the Divine Chapter 13 the number of the beast was 666, but it could also point out that some now believe this was a mis-translation and the number was 616, as a footnote in The Living Bible clarifies.Vorbee (talk) 22:26, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Agreed that 616 has some scholarly merit by my recollection, and if I had the time I'd research it and add it, but since I don't, I'd like it if someone did that. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 12:19, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

IIRC, it was select Hebrew manuscripts that gave 616, but the Greek manuscripts are still pretty unanimous in saying 666. This usually gets cited when arguing that Nero was the Antichrist. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:13, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

666 was Nero's numeric name in greek. 616 was Nero's numeric name in Aramaic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.51.235.177 (talk) 20:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Outline

Would anyone object to moving the outline section to the end and re-formatting with the hidden template or something similar? Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:19, 20 May 2017 (UTC) Would any

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A Pre-christian version

In the "Source" section, you do not mention the hypothesis that the Book of Revelations (Revelation) contains ancient pre-Christian texts of Jewish origin dating from the time of John the Baptist and the communities of Qumran adn called "Embedded Jewish Texts" or "Ur-text" (nothing to do with the city of Ur).

Indeed, in several verses one can isolate the ancient text from the one attributed to John, the latter having just added in the original text some words like "Jesus Christ" (Rev 1: 1), "testimony of Jesus Christ "(Rev. 1: 2) or even" Jesus "(Rev 1: 9), occurrencies that we can find in dozens of verses across all 22 chapters.

Example of old embedded jewish text with additions between brackets (source: J.Tabor) :

Rev 1:1 The revelation [of Jesus Christ,] which God gave [him] to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

2 who testified to the word of God [and to the testimony of Jesus Christ,] even to all that he saw.

3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

[5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,

6 and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.]

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother who share with you [in Jesus] the persecution and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God [and the testimony of Jesus.]

etc.

Reference: read the following books and articles detailing this subject:

"Revelation (The Anchor Yale Bible Commentaries)", J. Massyngberde Ford, Yale University Press, 1995

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rh/revelation_beasley-murray.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:7E8:C933:2900:E069:529F:BD45:A3EE (talk) 09:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

https://jamestabor.com/can-a-pre-christian-version-of-the-book-of-revelation-be-recovered/

https://jamestabor.com/here-it-is-at-last-a-pre-christian-version-of-the-book-of-revelation/ --

So I added a small reference to this hypothesis which is supported by several old texts --luxorion

Authorship

From everything I have read and heard, the apostle John (son of Zebedee, same as author of the Gospel according to John) was the author of the book of Revelation. This is not a view held by just a few individuals, and the article seems biased in its interpretation of the facts. is one example showing that it was indeed the apostle John. It is widely believed that John the apostle was exiled to Patmos. If the book was written c. 96 AD like many speculate, and the apostle John was born c. 6 AD, he would have been 90, but according to this site it states that if you lived past 30, it was not uncommmon to die after 70, so John would have been old, but like in modern times, it would not be impossible. Finally, while many secular scholars believe the apostle John did not write the book, most Christians do, and Theologians would know more about this subject than secular scientists Please take this into consideration, as the article should represent the most accurate and unbiased sources, and reconsider placing the apostle John as the author of the book. RSquier (talk) 20:18, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

"and Theologians would know more about this subject than secular scientists"

Are you kidding? Secular scientists are reliable sources, while theologians fail as sources due to their bias. Dimadick (talk) 20:49, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Who was a really existing person is a subject for the historical method rather than mere faith. See also WP:BLOGS. So, while we don't totally silence theologians, this matter is upon the turf of historians. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:25, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorry if what I was saying was misconstrued, I was merely pointing out that the article quickly dismisses the apostle John as the writer, while he may not have been, but it is still possible and reasonable to state that he is still a potential writer of the book, and not dismiss him so quickly. While theologians may be biased, why would they care if it was the apostle John or another John, so long as they believe it was Divine revelation? Theologians have studied the New Testament Greek and the apostle John, and therefore, while they may be biased, do know a ton about the Bible. This should be credible enough. That's like comparing someone who studied macro-evolution, and saying they are biased on Darwin's theory because they are not credible due to their bias. Anyways, I am only asking that this article is not so quick to dismiss the apostle as an author, as almost all theologians believe it was him, which gives a strong historical backing for it if nothing else. There is also little proof of another John living in that time period writing epistles or books, while there is historical proof outside the Bible acknowledging the apostle's existence. RSquier (talk) 02:59, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

almost all theologians believe it was him is thoroughly bunk. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:49, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Bible scholars are reliable. @RSquier: how do you propose we fix the article? – Lionel^(talk) 08:12, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

John of Patmos offers some information about himself, but never claims to be John the Evangelist, John the Apostle, or John the Presbyter. The Authorship of the Johannine works has been debated for centuries, and it is unlikely that the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation were written by the same person:

• "According to Epiphanius, one Caius of Rome believed that Cerinthus, a Gnostic, was the author of the Book of Revelation."
• "In the 3rd century, Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria rejected apostolic authorship, but accepted the book's canonicity. Dionysius believed that author was another man also named John, John the Presbyter, teacher of Papias, bishop of Hieropolis. Eusebius of Caesarea later agreed with this. Because authorship was one of several considerations for canonization, several Church Fathers and the Council of Laodicea rejected Revelation."
• Mainstream scholars conclude that the author did not also write the Gospel of John because of wide differences in eschatology, language, and tone. The Book of Revelation contains grammatical errors and stylistic abnormalities whereas the Gospel and Epistles are all stylistically consistent which indicate its author may not have been as familiar with the Greek language as the Gospel/Epistles's author. Contemporary scholars note that when Revelation and the Gospel refer to Jesus as "lamb" they use different Greek words, and they spell "Jerusalem" differently. There are differing motifs between the book and the Gospel: use of allegory, symbolism, and similar metaphors, such as "living water", "shepherd", "lamb", and "manna". The Book of Revelation does not go into several typically Johannine themes, such as light, darkness, truth, love, and "the world" in a negative sense. The eschatology of the two works are also very different. Still, the author uses the terms "Word of God" and "Lamb of God" for Jesus Christ, possibly indicating that the author had a common theological background with the author of John." Dimadick (talk) 11:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I think we should change the paragraph about the apostolic authorship

"Tradition links him to John the Apostle, but it is unlikely that the apostle could have lived into the most likely time for the book's composition, the reign of Domitian, and the author never states that he knew Jesus. All that is known is that this John was a Jewish Christian prophet, probably belonging to a group of such prophets, and was accepted as such by the congregations to whom he addresses his letter. His precise identity remains unknown,[9] and modern scholarship commonly refers to him as John of Patmos [10] (Rev. 1:9 – "I was put on the Island of Patmos")." to say something more along the lines of "Tradition links him to John the apostle, and many christian denominations hold this belief, however, some scholars believe it is unlikely the apostle could have lived into the most likely time for the book's composition..." By just changing the first sentence to something along the lines of what I wrote would show a more objective POV, without denouncing the fact that it may not have been him (as the main argument against his authorship is is age, 90ish)RSquier (talk) 02:02, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Nope, age is hardly the only argument. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:07, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

I know age is not the ONLY argument, however, it is one of the largest arguments, as it is even what is on this page as to why scholars may believe the apostle did not write the book. Although, many arguments stem from the age factor. RSquier (talk) 02:18, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

It's important to make sure all viewpoints are expressed, including Christian tradition, so I fully endorse RSquier's proposal. – Lionel^(talk) 09:03, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Tradition links him to John the Apostle

— Book of Revelation

See? Already included. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Sources required

See The Myth of Persecution and the TTC courses by Bart Ehrman: the persecutions against Christians have been greatly exaggerated. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Messy section

I usually don't care to comment on this universal problem with religious articles and the so called "consensus" that is to be fulfilled in a Wikipedia context, but the section Title, authorship, and date is an extra vivid example. As a context, I'm currently investigating whether John of Patmos could indeed be the apostle of Jesus, and that they were both seditious Zealots. Snapshots:

Tradition links him to John the Apostle, but it is unlikely that the apostle could have lived into the most likely time for the book's composition, the reign of Domitian, and the author never states that he knew Jesus.^[7] All that is known is that this John was a Jewish Christian prophet, probably belonging to a group of such prophets, and was accepted as such by the congregations to whom he addresses his letter.^{[4][8][citation not found]}

The section smells of wishful thinking, not of any objectivity. "The author never states that he knew Jesus" is proof by absense. Worse, next section:

Early Church tradition dates the book to end of the emperor Domitian (reigned AD 81–96), and most modern scholars agree, although the author may have written a first version after Nero's Great Fire in Rome (AD 64) under Vespasian (AD 69–79) and updated it under Domitian.[11][citation not found].

I know about the statement that it was written shortly after the death of Nero, from f.ex. Karl Kautsky, and that is exactly what I'm investigating. The text adhers to "consensus", but the participants in this "consensus" do not necessarily rely on facts or analyses, but are instead repeating a "consensus" based on a conventional mythos (which might, or might not be true), and the editors are reasoning on basis that such a "consensus" is academically valid, while pressing their personal opinions. That annoys me, something is wrong with Wikipedia rules in relation to religious topics. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 09:12, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Hallucination hypothesis

There's no coverage in the article to mention those researchers, e.g. John M. Allegro, Benny Shanon, Carl A. P. Ruck, et al, who have proposed that John of Patmos' particularly fantastic visions (as well as those of others, including in other religions) were enhanced by the use of psychedelics, such as hallucinogenic mushrooms. Whether or not people agree with it, it would be POV to exclude any mention of it. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 02:40, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

"Old Testament" vs. "Hebrew Bible"

Aside from citations and direct quotations, I have changed the phrase "Old Testament" to "Hebrew Bible" throughout this article for the following reasons:

• The preferred academic term, even in New Testament studies, is "Hebrew Bible" to "Old Testament."
• That not withstanding, it is anachronistic to use them term "Old Testament" here, as the "Old Testament" did not yet exist; it is a Christian canon constructed after the writing of the text. The Hebrew bible, too, was likely not codified in any formal way, but it was still a more cohesive body of texts at the time of writing and would have been what John drew from, not the later Christianized canon.
• John himself is surmised to be Jewish. At the time of writing, there were not clear delineations between "Jewish" and "Christian," and that is apparent in the text: "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you" (3:9, NRSV)—that is, to John, there is no separation between Jews and Christians; they are all Jews, and those not following Christ are erring. The Hebrew bible, as a then-better-formed Jewish canon, is a more appropriate referent given this worldview.

— anthologetes ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:23, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Reverted. He drew from the Septuagint, not the Hebrew Bible. It includes books which are not part of the current Hebrew Bible, which is based on the Masoretic Text. Dimadick (talk) 18:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@Dimadick: I disagree on several counts:

• The "Hebrew" in "Hebrew Bible" does not simply describe the language of the texts; it also describes the ethnic context in which the texts were written. If the canon was named after language, it would be "The Mostly Hebrew and a Little Bit of Aramaic Bible." Instead, it is the bible of the Hebrews, i.e. the collection of texts used by a specific religious tradition (in this case the tradition John drew from).
• In addition, the texts relevant to Revelation do occur in the Hebrew bible canon. And, some of the texts that the section discusses (Enoch, specifically, though you needlessly deleted my comment) are not included in either canon.
• If it is somehow misleading to say "Hebrew Bible" because of the composition of its canon, it is equally misleading to say "Old Testament." There are several competing versions of the canon. "Septuagint" would be preferable to "Old Testament," since it at least existed as a relatively fixed canon prior to the writing of Revelation (see my second bullet above).
• Finally, I disagree with the assertion that it was a POV edit. Most recent secular scholarship on New Testament texts prefers the term "Hebrew bible" to "Old Testament."
• Edit: an additional point: I disagree with the assertion that he assuredly "drew from the Septuagint." Revelation is full of allusions but not really any quotations, meaning there is no direct evidence concerning which version of the texts he had access to. Scholars still argue about the quality of the Greek or "Semiticisms" in it, so I hardly think it's cut-and-dry that, because the text was written in Greek, the Greek text is what the author had access to.

— anthologetes ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:36, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

"The "Hebrew" in "Hebrew Bible" does not simply describe the language of the texts" Try reading the article on the Hebrew Bible. "The form of this text that is authoritative for Rabbinic Judaism is known as the Masoretic Text (MT) and it consists of 24 books". It excludes about 22 books that are part of the traditional Old Testament of the Christians (46 Books), and its versions of the Book of Daniel and Book of Esther are consideredably shorter. Dimadick (talk) 20:10, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Again, you have not responded to the majority of my points. Even with this response, there are several issues:

• I think you ought to read the Hebrew Bible page (or, better yet, see the comparative table on the Old Testament page). The Hebrew Bible does not "exclude" 22 books—almost all of the texts are accounted for. The twelve minor prophets, for instance, are a single text in the Hebrew Bible (thus accounting for 11 of the "excluded" books). And, ironically, the page you have referred me to says the same thing I said above, that not only does "the term [denote] that it is largely written in Hebrew," but moreover that its name is derived because—emphasis mine—it "'is sacred to the Hebrew people.'"
• Again, I reiterate, there is not such thing as a "traditional" Old Testament. You are giving primacy to a Catholic tradition ("46 Books"), which is irresponsible in this context because 1) the Orthodox canons are just as old and 2) a fair number of readers coming here will be familiar with the Protestant canon. At this point, I would suggest the POV issue is on your end.
• The Greek additions to Daniel and Esther are irrelevant here; they have no discernible influence on the text contextually or linguistically.
• I also reiterate that the article section talks about a text, Enoch, that is not in any of the Old Testament canons. Granted, it's not in the Hebrew Bible either, and that was my mistake.

As quoted on the Hebrew Bible page you linked, the SBL Handbook encourages writers to "be aware of the connotations" of the terms being used here. I have laid about my thinking quite clearly above—I did not make the change from a position of ignorance (as you are trying to imply by linking to articles) or because of political correctness. There are legitimate chronological and canonical reasons for some change here.

– anthologetes ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm in agreement that Hebrew Bible (or, even better imo, Hebrew Scripture) is the more appropriate term, especially since the section is parsing information based on what John of Patmos had access to. "Old Testament" would be appropriate only in instances where modern interpretations of Revelation are compared with the current Old Testament, using the lens that the Christian canon changed how the books in the Christian Old Testament were viewed. As for the claim regarding the reservation of "Hebrew Bible" only for the Masoretic Text is a fallacy, although an understandable one. Many Jews lived well outside of Jerusalem for near plus 600 years by the time of John, and Greek had been the lingua franca for quite some time; so much so, that many Jews didn't even speak Hebrew, but Greek. Hence, they would have used the septuagint or similar available scripture in their studies. It wasn't called the "Greek Bible" or "Greek Scripture" just because it was written in Greek. -Trumblej1986 (talk) 04:27, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

A Perspective by The Church of Almighty God

The following is a perspective on the Book of Revelation by The Church of Almighty God (a.k.a. Eastern Lightning): According to the church, after the incarnated Almighty God (who is not believed to live forever on Earth) will have completed God's work on Earth for the last days, the catastrophes prophesied in the Book of Revelation of the Bible will come, in the form of earthquakes, wars and famines. However, "the Earth will not be annihilated, and the ones who are purified by God will be saved in the cataclysms of the last days, and will live on Earth forever."

Is the perspective eschatological or liturgical? Thanks for considering the possible addition to the entry. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:59, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Nero banishes John to Patmos in Syriac version?

This article doesn't point out that the Syriac (Aramaic) version of Revelations has a title like this: "The Revelation that was on John the prophet from God on the island of Patmos, where he had been exiled by Nero Caesar". And Nero Caesar in Hebrew letters = 666. [1]. Here is a quote about this I just found (from Robert Young's Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible (1865)):

'It was written in Patmos (about A.D. 68), whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac Version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D. 175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, i.e. Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favour of the earlier date [... etc.]

It seems unusual that information about this original Syriac title is so difficult to find. Are there any translations of Revelations that refer to it? At any rate, it seems like it should be mentioned in the present article.Jimhoward72 (talk) 04:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

As stated in the article The Book of Revelation is the only apocalyptic document in the New Testament. It is NOT included in the Peshitta (an early Syriac translation of the Christian Bible) This seems to be confusing at least to me. Kazuba (talk) 01:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC) Can Robert Young's concise Commentary on the Holy Bible (1865) be in error? Kazuba (talk) 02:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I am no expert on this, but I did a search on Young's quote and found this link: [2] (see the bottom of page in particular). As for the Syriac version of Revelations and where it came from, that I also don't know. But there was a Syriac version. "Syriac Vulgate Bible (sixth century. "The Apocalypse of St. John, written in Patmos, whither John was sent by Nero Caesar." (Opening Title for the Book of Revelation)" (on same page).Jimhoward72 (talk) 19:38, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Several early Syriac translations of the Bible all contain a “superscript” or introduction, “The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor.”[[3]]Jimhoward72 (talk) 05:58, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

First sentence of the article is inaccurate

The first sentence of the article says "The Book of Revelation" and then says "often called the Book of Revelations". This is inaccurate. It should have said that the Book of Revelation is sometimes erroneously referred to as the Book of Revelations. The full title of the book is "The Revelation of Saint John the Divine". Vorbee (talk) 17:29, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Where did you get that title? Translating the Greek αποκαλυψις ιωανου gives "The Revelation of John". GNT316 (talk) 20:09, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

"Al Jilwah" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Al Jilwah. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 02:55, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

"The Al Jilwah (The Black Book of Satan)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The Al Jilwah (The Black Book of Satan). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 02:53, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

OFF-TOPIC! - This has nothing to do with the Book of Revelation and should be deleted. 2601:580:5:97A7:CD88:63F2:3031:FCF8 (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

The Revelation/Apocalypse Prophesizes The Return Of The Christ - His Revealing Great Secrets - And Subsequent Plagues, Natural Catastrophes, And Economic Collapse

I tweaked the opening with... This book prophesizes the return of the Christ who reveals great secrets through the "book/scroll sealed with seven seals" - Revelation 5:1. This event triggers great plaques, natural catastrophes, war and economic collapse... It ends with a vision of "a new heavens and a new earth" - Revelation 21:1. 73.85.203.141 (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

That's original research, see WP:OR. Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

That's FALSE! Once someone receives The Truth, they are either enlightened or a liar. Just what in particular do you think is "original research"? Have you read The Revelation/Apocalypse lately? I AM thee expert on this book. 2601:580:5:97A7:CD88:63F2:3031:FCF8 (talk) 17:25, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on citations to reliable published sources (WP:RS, WP:VERIFY, WP:CITE]) - bible reference are considered primary sources (WP:PSTS), "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." - adding content not based on reliable published sources is original research (WP:OR, WP:NOR) - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 17:40, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I rather like the idea of great plaques. I think those blue ones they have in London are far too small.Achar Sva (talk) 08:11, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Scientific Interpretation

I apologize if this is out of place (I am a new user). As this article demonstrates, interpretation of scripture evolves. A body of Christian scientists have begun to interpret the "allegorical" passages in Genesis as primitive renderings of the paleontological record. Extending this to Revelation leads to an interpretation of the book as God's view of the struggle of redemption, beginning billions of years ago. Where do I go to argue that this view be included in this article? I am also sensitive to the charge of self-promotion, as the interpretation is fully developed only out at one of my blogs (www.love-returns.org). BrianBalke (talk) 16:22, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you do not attempt to add your views to the article they will be deleted, blogs are hardly ever considered reliable sources and yours is original research which we can't accept. Wikipedia is not the place to promote your ideas. Theroadislong (talk) 16:56, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. Obviously I am sensitive to the issue of self-promotion, for I raised it. Are their specific guidelines on the matter? What if I did this: raised the issue of correspondence between paleontology and Revelation without reference to my site? And this is not entirely original research: there are reputable Christian scientists that have drawn parallels between the days of Creation and the paleontological record, and others that have drawn parallels between the golden bowls and the ecological disasters befalling us in the modern era. They could be cited, and the correspondence to Revelation posited as an extension of their ideas. The content would lay out the days of creation, the trumpets of Revelation, and the great extinction episodes known to paleontology. These are all facts that can be cited, unlike much of what else is posted on the topic, which is summaries of the opinion of writers working without reference to any material facts except the echo chamber they have generated. You understand my concern: that we be sensitive to the politicized context of the interpretation of scripture, and recognize and respect those that seek to place it on a firm evidentiary foundation. BrianBalke (talk) 04:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

"Christian scientists" Are you referring to Christian Science, the American religious movement? Dimadick (talk) 18:18, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

No, Dimadick, I am referring to scientists that are Christians. Better known among them are people such as Hugh Ross at Reasons to Believe and the Eco-Evangelicals. I myself am a Ph.D. particle physicist. BrianBalke (talk) 04:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

The germane WP:PAGs are WP:DUE and WP:FRINGE. Do take time to read them. Tgeorgescu (talk) 05:26, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@BrianBalke: the best way to proceed IMHO is to write a draft of your material, fully referenced, and post it as a subpage (see WP:SUBPAGE). At that point we have something to talk about. You can also get feedback from a much wider audience here.– Lionel^(talk) 10:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

@Lionelt and Lionel: Here is the first draft: User:BrianBalke/sandbox/Revelation

@BrianBalke: WP:RSPSCRIPTURE: you're kidding, there are no WP:RS in your draft. Badly fails WP:OR. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:30, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Tgeorgescu: Wow, so this is why Jesus never wrote a Gospel. It's not a public page yet, and I'm not going to spend the time to learn to craft valid Wikipedia content unless the material is acceptable.

@BrianBalke: Just so you don't waste any more of your time or ours this User:BrianBalke/sandbox/Revelation would be TOTALLY unacceptable as an article. Theroadislong (talk) 16:34, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:52, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Want information

I want more informationor want to know more about Satan's and all about them... Janice Wu Qian (talk) 13:55, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

– there are a number of Wikipedia articles available: Satan, Devil in Christianity, Devil, War in Heaven, Devil in the arts and popular culture, Prince of Darkness (Satan), Lucifer, Beelzebub, Prince of Darkness (Manichaeism) – some research may turn up more - cheers, Epinoia (talk) 14:48, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Also see Category:Satan. Editor2020 (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Contemporary illustration of entire book

• https://apocalypseanimated.com/

This work has a Wikimedia compatible license as described at https://apocalypseanimated.com/about/

The artist is free-culture enthusiast Nina Paley, known for illustrating classical religion with contemporary cartoons. Right now I think the newest illustration in this article is the William Black art from about 1800. How would anyone feel about using one of the cartoons in this project anywhere in this article? Bluerasberry (talk) 20:51, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

The files are at Internet Archive also https://archive.org/details/apocalypse-animated-clips-hd Bluerasberry (talk) 20:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but I would be a "no". Not that it's not cool visually, but they're too distracting if you're trying to read the text. ButlerBlog (talk) 22:43, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

@Butlerblog: Can you say more about your objection? There is a project right now at meta:Communications/Wiki Unseen for introducing more contemporary art to illustrate Wikipedia articles without illustrations. Obviously this page is well illustrated, but I might use this art as an example for conversation.

This "Book of Revelation" article is high-traffic and top level, but there are lots of other articles in Category:Book_of_Revelation. Under what circumstances would you support illustrations from this art project going into any other articles? Would you accept still images? Some objections that I imagine could include the animation and the novelty of the untraditional art. Can you say more? Thanks. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:38, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't necessarily object to contemporary or nontraditional art in general. My objection was definitely on the basis of animation being a distraction from the text. ButlerBlog (talk) 23:07, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Anachronism

Partitioning the Bible into verses happened much later, after John of Patmos died. So it is quite anachronistic to attribute him patterns which became apparent only after the Bible was partitioned into verses. I don't know if such error could pass for scholarship at any major university, apparently Liberty University is not a major university, to say the least. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:36, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

"Revelation of Christ" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address a potential problem with the redirect Revelation of Christ and it has been listed for discussion. Readers of this page are welcome to participate at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 February 9 § Revelation of Christ until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 14:29, 9 February 2023 (UTC)