Talk:Blakely Bernardi

Scaramouche

(I assume you do have that movie?)

Just a quick comment on that ledge stuff. Obviously on mine, as you can see in the pics, there is no such space behind the seats. But I was combing through my picture collection I got off various websites over the last two years, and on some pictures it really does look like there is some space behind the seat. And possibly a narrow ledge. Hard to make out at the angles they were taken. One thing all of those "extra space" pics have in common is that they are a later model year, like 1984 and after. So if your's is a 1986 model, it may well be so. Most intriguing. None of the advertisements I have acquired mention it. But then, none of them are from the later years either. Hope the snow melts soon, or you go and start digging it out before I die of curiosity. :-)

More later on the other subjects.

Peter —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterGTV6 (talk • contribs) 08:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PeterGTV6;

Nice-looking Bernardi! The two-tone color scheme is always attractive on outboard-fender cars.

Just to reiterate about Wikipedia policy regarding images - I can't take your photos from the blog site myself, but you should have no problem adding your own photos to this page. As you say, there are many subtleties. But the general policy is set out in the Wikipedia Image use policy article:

Wikipedia encourages users to upload their own images, but all user-created images must be licensed under a free license (such as the GFDL and/or an acceptable Creative Commons license) or be released into the public domain (no copyright). If licensing, it is best practice to multi-license your images under both GFDL and a Creative Commons license.

Such images can include photographs which you yourself took (remember that rights to images generally lie with the photographer, not the subject), drawings or diagrams you yourself created, and other self-created work. Simply re-tracing a copyrighted image or diagram, however, does not necessarily create a new copyright — copyright is generated only by instances of "creativity", and not by the amount of labor which went into the creation of the work. Photographs of three-dimensional objects almost always generate a new copyright, though others may continue to hold copyright in items depicted in such photographs. Photographs of two-dimensional objects (such as paintings in a museum) often do not (see the section on the "public domain" below). If you have questions in respect to this, please ask the regulars at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights.

If the Wikipedia photo challenge is overwhelming, no problem. Someone else may make their way to this article and get their photos in, or I'll take photos this spring of my car and post them.

Any thoughts on setting up the other Blakely-related articles I was suggesting earlier?

Scaramouche509 (talk) 06:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scaramouche

I just posted some photos of my Bernardi on the blogsite that shows the car and the seating area.

http://blakelycars.blogspot.com/

Hope that helps.

Later after I receive some anticipated magazines, probably a couple of weeks from now, I will also post a list of known articles and books that cover or mention the Blakely cars. I am at the point where it now is harder and harder to find them.

Thanks for the wiki links. There definitely is an awful lot of reading to do on the wiki process to understand it properly. Haven't even started yet. I wonder just how picture ownership is defined. Am scratching my head here. If you take a picture of someone else's car, who owns the image? The car owner, or the photographer? At what point is privacy violated? When is it necessary to get written permission? In club newsletters no one really cares. But in something as widely public as Wikipedia, I imagine the rules are stricter. But how strict?

Peter —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterGTV6 (talk • contribs) 05:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PeterGTV6

Thanks for the response. I'll tackle your points in order:

Ledge behind the seats:

I'm beginning to wonder if I hallucinated the ledge. When the snow clears, I'll unwrap the Bernardi, take a look more closely, and photograph it if it really does exist - until then, consider it a questionable item in the article. My car is a 1986, if I recall correctly. Whether it's different from yours in any major dimensions, we can can check with the "tale of the tape" - again, when weather permits here.

Bernardi Photos.

The simplest scheme is just to update the article yourself with the photos. Content is wide open to anyone who wants to contribute, and I would certainly like to see it dressed up with pictures. I have not yet used the Wikipedia scheme for uploading and embedding photographs, but guidelines and instructions can be found here:

From the sounds if it, images you have created yourself are more suitable in general than those copied from other web pages.

History

I have indeed written the article as if the Blakely were the focus, simply because that's all I really know about now. I would like to see a set of articles appear that cover the full Blakely story, but I don't have authoritative information (e.g., printed materials, other authoritative webs sites, etc.) for reference. Wikipedia's editors are reputedly harsh on unsupported material in the encyclopedia articles, so I have only written about material I have on hand. While the article is here in the "user sandbox" area, it is not subject to their scrutiny. But I am concerned that when it is moved to the general encyclopedia, it may not meet editorial standards and might be abbreviated or deprecated by the more experienced Wikipedia participants.

If sufficient source information were available, I suspect we might see the following articles in place:

Kit Car Manufacturers*             Kit Cars*
   ||                                 ||
   \/                                 \/
Blakely Manufacturing*** \=======> Blakely Bernardi**
                         \=======> Blakely Bantam***
                         \=======> Blakely Bearcat***
                         \=======> (others?)

*   Articles that are already in Wikipedia proper
**  This article
*** Possible future articles

The other articles could be developed by anyone with sufficient authoritative information. No pressure. If you do not want to tackle them yourself, I would be happy to digest the source material you have and do my best to get the additional articles started. One of the things I've been impressed by is how fast this draft article managed to climb to the first page of Google results for the search terms "Blakely Bernardi". It would be good to have the other Blakely information as easily found and as easy to enhance.

Scaramouche509 (talk) 20:51, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Scaramouche

Ledge behind the seats:

That still sounds puzzling.

<< it's just a 6" - 12" wide carpeted area between the seats and the back of the cab, between (say) shoulder height and elbow height for someone sitting in the car>>.

In mine, there is a 6x12" ledge right between the seats that is taken up mostly by the handbrake assembly. And I have nothing at all between the seat backs and the back of the cab. Unless what you are describing is a later development by Herschberger. What year is your Bernardi? Mine is an ’81. I have a loose impression that more improvements may have been made later on. Maybe later models were a bit longer. Or maybe you have a custom “improvement” that is a hole in the back panel and uses some of the space in the trunk. Intriguing. Best thing is to just have me send you a photo of mine and see what you think. And I have also collected many other photos from websites in the last couple of years.

Wikipedia versus email and blog.

Yes – lets just keep this going. There is lots of information still to be covered if this story is to be told accurately.

Bernardi Photos.

So how do I get photos to you? I have photos I myself took of 4 Blakely cars, mine and three others, and may have access to one other Bernardi. Since I am on the California coast, I do not need to wait for any snow to go away. If anything, now is the best time to take pics as it is easier to find green backgrounds at this time.

History (short thumbnail – these are only the major highlights in my list.)

Even though you briefly mention the other Blakely cars, the article as written almost infers that this was their one major line. In reality one cannot overlook or leave out the other models as they are all rather closely related, and were marketed simultaneously.

1972. Blakely auto Works (BAW) begins.

1972 - First came the Bantam design. Dick Blakely was inspired by the Dutton kit car, a Lotus 7 look alike.

1973-5. The frame was strengthened and doors were added, and the first Bearcat was produced. (Different accounts about dates in various articles).

1975. First major article about the car in R&T Nov 1975. And still the most informative.

1977 (estim). Bearcat redesign as Bearcat S started, and introduced. Generally the same body tub, but a new hood and trunk lid. For a time both the old continental style trunk lid and the newer rack style were available.

1980. First Bernardi build and introduced. Generally the same body tub as the BearcatS, but a completely new hood design, and other refinements. Parts look like they were completely interchangeable.

1980. Dick Blakely sells the company to Art Herschberger.

1981. Bernardi article in C&D Feb 1981.

1982. Bantam redesigned.

1984. Bantam renamed Hawk.

1985. Changes name to Bernardi Auto Works

1987. Aug. Last known ad in a magazine - but only a listing of the company address. (Am still looking for more that may have come later.)

1988. Out of business. (per Harold W Pace “Kit and Specialty Cars, Past and Present”.)

My speculation about the gradual fall is that the 80s were highly competitive with numerous other neoclassic kit car companies that placed major full page advertisements. BAW and AH, despite making some very classy color flyers they sent out by mail, never seemed to publish them in any magazine. (So far I have located 6 photo articles in magazines, and numerous short listings or announcements.)

2002 Harold W Pace “Kit and Specialty Cars, Past and Present”. Brief History of Blakely cars, rather short, but so far – the most complete and accurate summary seen.

--PeterGTV6 (talk) 19:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PeterGTV6;

Ledge behind the seats

I don't want to make the ledge sound bigger than it is, and maybe I should amend the wording in the article. In the car I have, it's just a 6" - 12" wide carpeted area between the seats and the back of the cab, between (say) shoulder height and elbow height for someone sitting in the car. It's only notable because a few of the other 1950's - 1960's replicas I've seen or driven (e.g., the Shelby Cobra) have the seats mounted flat against the back of the cab or molded into the body directly. Does this sound like the shape of your car's interior, or might we have a substantial difference between our cars? A photograph would tell the story, but as I note below, I can't provide one right now. When spring arrives I'll take a closer look at the ledge and update the article as needed to describe it properly.

Wikipedia versus email and blog

I am hoping that this material (including not just the article, but also our comments in this discussion page) will become part of the permanent Internet record for this topic. Wikipedia is a good, long-term home for a summary of the facts, while a blog is well-suited to personal opinion, experiences, the "logging" sort of discussion that takes place over time, and so on. I think both are valuable for their respective purposes, and I would encourage you to add material to the Bernardi article directly if you have anything that suits the Wikipedia mandate. For example, I'm going to see if I can get some of the key frame and body measurements this spring: total length, wheelbase, track, etc. On the other hand, if I get caught up in a bunch of restoration shenanigans, I think I would contribute that sort of ongoing story to a blog.

Bernardi photos

Thanks for the links to the Flickr photos. Do you have any interest in putting your Bernardi photo(s) into this article? Because of Wikipedia's attribution and license conditions (they require photos and other media to be fully Wikipedia:Public_domain), it seems to be simplest for the owner of the photo to agree to the license and do the upload. As I noted earlier, I'm just waiting on some decent Bernardi photos to move the article from this temporary location into Wikipedia proper - any pictures from my end are at least a few weeks away after the snow clears.

Scaramouche509 (talk) 19:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scaramouche

There is one line in your article that puzzles me greatly.

<<There is a small ledge behind the two seats for casual storage, >>

I have no such ledge in mine. The fiberglass bucket body shell wall is right behind the seats, and behind that wall is the trunk. No space for anything between the seats and the body wall, except perhaps some magazines or a newspaper.

<<and a functional trunk in the back.>>

- - Which is quite roomy, if the spare tire were not in there.

<<While the body style and proportions generally mimic the MG-TD, the Bernardi is noticeably larger in all dimensions.>>

That is quite true. I have been in several MGs and some of the English kit cars as well when I visited the Stoneleigh Kit Car show in the UK. the Bernardi definitely has a bit extra room.

PeterGTV6 —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterGTV6 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Scaramouche & Phil.

I just "signed up" to get my two cents worth in here. Looks like I have to learn how this discussion page really works. But - Would it not be simpler and more convenient to just do all the basic discussion on email rather than this open discussion page, and then just place the results here?

Your text is pretty much my story too. I purchased a Blakely Bernardi that has seen better days, kinda fell in love with it, and have been collecting data for 2 yrs now. I've spent several hundred $ collecting magazines and books that contain various information, and am almost ready to place some of my findings on the blog site. Phil and some others on the email list have some of the datalists I have compiled, including a history dateline.

Also if you make a search on the flickr photo site for Blakely Bernardi or Bearcat, you will find some photos I took.

http://www.flickr.com/search/advanced/

put in the keywords or tags - like:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Kit+Car+Blakely&ct=0

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Blakely%20Bearcat&w=all

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Blakely%20Bernardi&w=all

This green Bearcat I saw at a Kit Car show started my interest. It was a classic style without being an outright copy of any well known car from the classic era. Later I saw that Bantam that is shown on the blogsite. And another year later I purchased that tan/brn Bernardi in the second picture. Sadly, it was abused by some "kids" and needs a lot of fixing.

More later.

PeterGTV6 <- also has several Alfa GTV6s —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterGTV6 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Phil;

Thanks for the link to the blog - I will bookmark it and keep an eye out for updates.

I have little information on the company above what I noted in the Wikipedia article. I bought a Blakely Bernardi recently, and the previous owner passed on article reprints, Blakely advertising materials, and other documents about the company and the car. Summarized, these are the source of the information I presented in this article draft. I don't know much yet about the company or why it went out of business, but what I learn in the future I will put into the Wikipedia article.

I have been holding off placing this article in the Wikipedia main wiki (as opposed to the member's area, where I have been working on the draft) until I could get one or two unrestricted photographs of the Bernardi itself. It's winter here and it will be at at least a couple of months before I can photograph my own car in an appealing setting. Would you be able to supply any Bernardi photos from your blog contents? If so, please insert them in the article as you see fit - I think the informal Wikipedia "standard" for car articles would be at least one good full-body shot and one or two photographs of interesting details.

Thanks for responding. I hope the eventual Wikipedia article gives us a single spot for contributing the information we all uncover about the Blakely company, the Bernardi and other models, and any user groups that may exist or come into being in the future.

I'm adding your blog link to the article, and I invite you to update the article draft as you see fit. If you have useful information on the other Blakely models (Bantam, etc.), consider setting up additional Wikipedia pages for them as well. Having the articles on Wikipedia may help bring out more authoritative sources of information over time.

Regards, Scaramouche509 (talk) 18:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello this is atest.

I guest this works! Phil

Peter, Carey and myself started sharing info thru emails and a Blog please see:

http://blakelycars.blogspot.com/

We are trying to find out as much as possible about the company especially why it went under in the late 80's. We also started (Peter) compiling a list of current Blakely car owners. Do you own a blakely yourself. Also the provided info on this draft wiki what was your source... you sem to know a lot. Feb 25 th

Phil