Talk:Bitola inscription

Falsified Study

The following paragraph:

On the 23rd International Congress of Byzantine Studies in 2016, archaeologists Elena Kostić and Georgios Velenis—who worked on the field with the plate itself—reported that on the very top part of the plate, there were holes and channels to fit Π-shaped metal joints. Therefore, the plate could not have the 13th row and that it was more likely that the plate was part of a much older object from the Roman period. Based on the form of the used letters, they gave the date 1202–1203, when Kaloyan was the Bulgarian ruler. Nevertheless both researchers have summarized that most researchers who studied the inscription believe that the inscription is the last written source of the First Bulgarian Empire with an accurate dating, some others argued it is from the 13th century and only a single study proclaimed it as a forgery.

seems to have been falsified in its entirety. I chased down both sources. The first one, The Issue of the Pre-Dated Inscriptions in Contrary with the Falsified, actually exists but concerns a completely different inscription—in a church in Edessa. It was claimed to date back to Samuel's reign, but was actually a later forgery, which has been proven several times already. Here the two researchers present another argument in favour of the forgery, by comparing the shape of the letters.

The second source is not a source. I downloaded the entire transcript of the proceedings, which was about half a gigabyte. Not even a menton about Elena Kostić and Georgios Velenis or the Bitola Inscription. They did not even participate in the congress (!!!).

I would like for someone to corroborate this (cause there is always the possibility that I am going senile or something), preferably not a Bulgarian. However, the only Macedonian I would trust not to lie to my face is Steve McKey. Or however it's spelled, I'm probably butchering the name. Until corroboration comes, the paragraph should stay here.

I have to say this sort of thing is getting increasingly more common—from the North Macedonian side. Over the past year, I have discovered, on multiple occasions, statements that directly refute or misrepresent the source they are quoting. However, this is a new low. I hope to have the time to look through the edits and see who has done this. I believe there is one person doing these things and although I am fuzzy on what Wikipedia's policy is, I think if they actually do this over and over again, they should be run out of Wikipedia. This is sociopathic behaviour. VMORO 16:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

First of all, please keep your national battleground mentality to yourself. I'd strongly recommend you redact everything you wrote above about what you think about Macedonian contributors. This attitude will get you blocked or topic-banned otherwise.

About the issue at hand, the passage in question was first introduced here by User:Forbidden History, in 2020. This was certainly introduced in very poor form, but contrary to what you saw, it seems that at the very least there is a relevant contribution by authors Kostić and Velenis in the 23 International Congress of Byzantine Studies. It was published in the "Thematic Sessions of Free Communications" part of the online proceedings, not in the "Plenary Papers" (which may be the reason you couldn't find it), but it is at the page given, p.128, in that volume, online here. The authors do claim that the plaque didn't have a lost upper line of text as reconstructed earlier by Zaimov. They also say that the date in the text that was interpreted as 1015/17 by earlier editors was in fact misread and that in reality it's clearly readable as 1203/04. So, while I'm not sure this is a fully reliable source in the absence of a more formal and full publication, and while its summary in the present form is far from satisfactory, the reference is certainly not a complete fabrication.

Now, having said this, it is of course high time that this article be fixed and rewritten, by defocussing the entire inane and petty nationalist point-scoring that seems to have been the only perspective Wikipedia editors from all "sides" have ever brought to this topic. The idiocy inherent in using this artifact as a mere pretext for nationalist polemics over that "Bulgarian" word is breathtaking. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello. The paragraph above contained original research introduced by the Macedonian editor (who is now topic banned) mentioned above, which I removed. Apart from that, the paragraph is not really originally researched, but it could be rewritten if needed. We could also consult WP:RSN if needed, since I'm unsure about the reliability of the source too. I'm open to all suggestions on how to fix and rewrite this article. I tried to distance it from fringe views as much as I could. StephenMacky1 (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to take a stance here that's a bit offtopic. VMORO, although there are indeed Macedonian editors who are not correct in their edits, StephenMacky1 is an example of a completely objective editor. Jingiby (talk) 18:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

The alternative dating section is about a fringe views and is too long for an undue weight issue. It must be much shorter. No need to remove credible sources from it. Jingiby (talk) 13:21, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

We could do away with the whole section. There is no reason to have such a section when reliable sources do not dispute the dating. Considering that it has been subject to POV pushing, I think that's the best option. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I do not see why views devoid of elementary logic and common sense should be so widely advocated in this article. Jingiby (talk) 13:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The section presents other reliable sources advocating for an alternative dating. Although Wikipedia does stick with the mainstream view, it also describes other relevant views. In this case there are reliable and/or authoratative sources and figures advocating for an altervative view, hence it should remain.

Again, calling those views "devoid of elementary logic" seems quite one-sided and unconstructive. The mainstream view is presented in the entire article and having a section on alternative dating won't lead the reader of the article to have a skewed perception on the inscriptions' dating.

I moved the bit about the kinship etc. in a more suitable category, as it describes the content of the text. Also having a paragraph based on one source nearly as long as one based on multiple reliable soures seems undue. Kluche (talk) 14:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONSENSE, Wikipedia has many policies or what many consider "rules". Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use Common sense as you go about editing. Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy. The common sense says, there is no logic this Bulgarian ruler from the inscription, called Ivan, who claimed to be the grandson of Comita Nikola and Ripsimia of Armenia, and son of Aron of Bulgaria, who was Samuel of Bulgaria's brother, to be Ivan Asen, Kaloyan, etc., rulers who lived centuries later. The only historical person whose origin fits this description is Ivan Vladislav. And this categorically defeats the other options. Therefore, I insist that these marginal views be reduced as much as possible.Jingiby (talk) 15:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I doubt the relevance (or reliability) of these sources and views, considering how they have received almost no attention from reliable sources. It appears that only Bulgarian sources have addressed these views. While there are cases where Wikipedia can present other relevant views, at the end of the day, it's still an encyclopedia where mostly mainstream knowledge is to be presented. StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

StephenMacky1, I do not understand your position. May you please, explain clearer your final proposal. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 15:29, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty simple. I think the whole section should be removed. StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is who I meant by "Steve McKey" (= [User:StephenMacky1]), and I agree with you. VMORO 04:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, bla-bla-bla. If I had a "nationalist background mentality", I wouldn't have wanted the sources to be corroborated by a non-Bulgarian editor now, would I? Both previous sources were fallacious, weren't they? You have a remarkable tendency to launch into personal attacks given that you are an administrator. But whatever, thank you for the source you've dug up. VMORO 05:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I fail to see why Lunt's views should be removed. Kostic and Velenis does not seem to have received much attention yet. And the final paragraph of the section is just why Bulgarian researchers disagree with this. --Local hero ^talk 06:00, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not think Lunt or Kostic/Velenis's views should be removed. However, they should not take over the entire text. I have drastically reduced the paragraph about Kostic/Velenis, as it still went on and on about the shape of the letters and so on—which refers to the falsified inscription in Edessa. All the other material referring to Edessa has also been removed. I am reposting again the actual source provided by ☼, page 128: https://www.byzinst-sasa.rs/srp/uploaded/PDF%20izdanja/Thematic%20Sessions%20of%20Free%20%20Communications.pdf. VMORO 06:10, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

When it comes to Lunt, I found a source that criticized his views on the inscription, but it's too bad that the guy criticizing him turned out to be a civil engineer. We need a secondary source and preferably about his views on the inscription. If you plan on reducing it further too, I won't mind. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:32, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, he's just always been pro-Macedonian, including in matters that have put him agasinst the entire world. He spent 4 years or so at the U.S. embassy in Belgrade and wrote the first Macedonian grammar. I can speculate that there was CIA involvement of the type "the Macedonians are the good commies and the Bulgarians are the bad commies", but this has no factual grounds -- perhaps he just liked and sympathised with Macedonia. Anyway, I have done what (in my opinion) would be optimal, could you give an opinion? VMORO 14:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

References