Talk:Between the Buried and Me/Archive 1

Genre (Again)

I see there is some editing going on. Despite this in the code: DO NOT CHANGE GENRE, DISCUSS IN TALK. ANY GENRE EDIT WITHOUT PREVIOUS DISCUSSION WILL BE DELETED things are not being discussed. So I’ll start the discussion.
The main struggle seems to be the genres mathcore and progressive metal.

Lets compare BTBAM to mathcore bands: I think typical mathcore bands are August Burns Red, Ion Dissonance, PsyOpus, in other words: very aggressive and chaotic bands playing complex music.

Lets compare BTBAM to progressive Metal bands: I think typical PM bands are Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, Pain of Salvation, bands that took progressive rock from the 70’s and made it more harsh sounding by incorporating heavy metal/thrash metal into their music.

I think BTBAM don’t sound like any of these bands. They play a lot of complex things but they don’t sound as chaotic as mathcore bands. They have progressiveness in their music but they don’t do 8 minute solo’s (they are influenced by 70’s progressive rock, but that doesn’t make them progressive metal).

The thing BTBAM do is making a collage of musical styles they like. Almost every part they play makes me think of a specific (metal) genre. They play (melodic) death metal, grindcore, metalcore, black metal and more sparingly I hear some heavy metal, alternative rock, blues rock, groove metal, on Alaska even some viking metal :). So if you ask me, I’d say they’re mainly death metal, grindcore, metalcore with a lot of influences like black metal, alternative rock, progressive rock, thrash metal

In fact they made it really easy for us by releasing The Anatomy Of (even the name implies that the artists on that album are what BTBAM ‘is made of’). It showcases a set of bands they like and are influenced by. Amongst them are 70’s progressive rock bands (King Crimson, Pink Floyd), thrash metal bands (Sepultura, Metallica) and a lot of 90’s alt. rock/grunge bands (Blind Melon, Faith No More, The Smashing Pumpkins, Soundgarden)

Please discuss, hopefully we’ll agree on this. Emmaneul 07:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Really, none of these are consistent throughout the albums, either. There are about five to six different genres that seem to define this band. -MetalKommandant (talk) 00:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, I think it's pretty simple. They are technical death metal, progressive rock, and mathcore. I really don't see how anyone could argue against any of these designations, since they fit the basic definitions for all and have been classified as such by numerous sources. Razorhead (talk) 9:01 25 December 2009

It's really a case of POV. It's kind of funny not mentioning one of the most notable progressive death metal (or technical death metal) and mathcore bands with those genres. It's sourced and consensus is also on this. It's more like some editors really don't like the genre to change.Solino_{the Wolf} 20:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

If you're still not Ok with the genres we can go for an RfC.Solino_{the Wolf} 21:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Smashing Pumpkins?

Even though it is cited, I don't think saying that the keyboard sounds like it should be on a Smashing Pumpkins cd. This sounds more like a review than an encyclopedia. I am going to remove that.--Wick3dd (talk) 20:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Grunge?

What influence do they take from grunge?68.4.212.158 17:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at their 'The Anatomy Of' album. They cover Soundgarden, a grunge band. Smashing Pumpkins is sometimes labeled as grunge and so is Blind Melon (see Allmusic.com). These may not be 100% grunge bands but BTBAM are clearly influenced by bands popular in the grunge era. That's why there's a slash in "alternative rock/grunge". Emmaneul 01:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but death growls aren't in grunge. If so, that redefines a lot of music articles... -MetalKommandant (talk) 01:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

"Yeah, but death growls aren't in grunge" ...Maybe they created a new style! It'd be neat to hear more expansions on this. Just look at what happened when a certain early 90s band blended the two previously unrelated genres hip-hop and heavy metal. Grunge and death-metal... the possibilities are endless! 98.174.219.204 (talk) 00:43, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop adding Deathcore twice

In the following text deathcore is mentioned twice. That's wrong.

"Between the Buried and Me is a progressive metalcore/deathcore quintet from Raleigh, North Carolina whose music also displays significant influence from deathcore and jazz."

A progressive metalcore/deathcore is a deathcore influenced band. It's obsolete to state their significant influence is deathcore. It's also obvious mathcore, or whatever metal(core) genre is an influence because "progressive metalcore/deathcore" implies this.

The second part of the sentence is meant to state BTBAM's NON-metalcore/deathcore influences (hence the word ALSO). So don't add deathcore twice. I'll put alternative rock/grunge back instead of deathcore. Why? read what I have written above. Not only 'The Anatomy Of' but several other sources make clear they have Smashing Pumpkins (and other) influences

Like this part of a review (from allmusic) "The metal take on things can seemingly change in a flash as lead singer Tommy Rogers fleshes out his vocals and utilizes the keyboards to create something that sounds more like it should be on a Smashing Pumpkins album."

Thank you. Emmaneul 04:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Genre...

I seemed to be part of a genre edit war in this Wiki page. The only reason I put Prog. Deathcore/Metalcore since Metal Archives mentioned it. I belived it's somewhat the closest thing to an correct metal information website. But now, I don't really mind if it's either tech (by Dexter prog) or prog, just at least have a genre that seems closest to what their music actually is.

AKnot 01:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

So now it does not have a genre? The reason I edited it is because the band isn't progressive metal (Metal archives have several mistakes and they don't pay too much attention to the genres, they only care if it is metal or not). Anyway, most of this band's fans will still believe it is progressive just because they shred, play in x/8 and use armonizations, so I won't mind editing it again. -- Dexter prog 21:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Technicality has nothing to do with progressiveness in music. [Steve M]

Wrong, go read the Progressive metal article. Notice the mention of "complex compositional structures, odd time signatures, and intricate instrumental playing" and "Some progressive metal bands are also influenced by jazz fusion music" And also the mention of "longer songs", which Between the Buried and me have. Though I am not saying that BTBAM are progressive, I am saying that technicality has something to do with being "Progressive" Zanders5k 00:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

This band is progressive. I think it goes without saying. For one, they played in the Progressive Nation tour, they are extremely complex and they use a huge variety of different styles and long movements that flow into each other, plus they use progressive instrumentation like synthesizers and intricate guitar and bass lines and they have unconventional song structure. If all that doesn't sound like progressive rock, then you may need to check up on who's considered progressive rock these days. Also does anyone consider them Technical death metal? I know both the mathcore and progressive references cover their technicality, but it seems they should be included with other technical death metal bands. ^the27^the 23:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not a forum. Your opinions are of no relevance to Wikipedia. Regarding genre, the only thing that is important is what can be reliably sourced. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Well then what can be considered a reliable source? A far as I can tell, the only "reliable sources" people give are of critics describing the band's genre. Well why do they have more say than anyone else? I think strict examples from songs is the best way to determine genres of a band. ^the27^the 22:49, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Genre

The exact term would be MATHCORE

Source please? If you don't have one, please don't bother contributing to the discussion. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Vegan

You forggot to put that three of the members of the band are vegan, and one is vegetarian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.177.151.230 (talk) 21:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Genre

Between the Buried and Me is easily defined as deathcore/metalcore. They share traits similar to that of bands like The Black Dahlia Murder, The Faceless, and As Blood Runs Black. And they also share metalcore traits with the softer sections in some of their songs. They are not grind, they are not trash, and they are not black metal. They may have been influenced by bands of those genres, but they are another genre all their own, which is primarily deathcore/metalcore

(unsigned?)

If you could find any sources, that would be helpful. Like I said before "The thing BTBAM do is making a collage of musical styles they like." The grindcore parts and influences are very clear on their first album, listen to it and you'll probably acknowlegde.

I did some research:

Some sources:

last.fm death metal hardcore mathcore melodic death metal metal metalcore progressive metal seen live

metal-archives Progressive Metalcore

allmusic Alternative Metal, Hardcore Punk, Thrash, Death Metal/ Black Metal

rockdetector Death Metal, Metalcore, Metal

Metal Observer: Progressive Death Metal, Progressive Metal, Metalcore

summary:

death metal 111

melodic death metal 1

progressive metalcore 1

progressive death metal 1

progressive metal 11

hardcore 11

mathcore 1

metalcore 111

alt metal 1

thrash 1

top 3

total “progressive” 4

total “death metal” 5

total “metalcore” 4

So I'd say they're progressive metal, death metal, metalcore, no deathcore/grindcore unless good scources can be found. I'll change the genres, until (better) sources prove something else

Emmaneul 12:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what idiotic websites/magazines say, their NOT death metal. Use your ears. XXMurderSoulXx (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sigh..Wikipedia is not about ears and POV, it is about those idiotic websites and magazines. On a side note, I listen to plenty of death metal and this band easily qualifies. Why are they so hard to classify? They switch genres quickly. In your mind what defines death metal? Blast beats, death grunts, and the like? BTBAM uses all of those, they just hop between genres a lot.--Wick3dd (talk) 00:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

They are progressive death metal by instrumental standards. The fact that Tommy sings in a few songs does not make it "metalcore", unless you would like to label Opeth that as well. The instrumentals are not reminiscent of hardcore, but that of metal, meaning that it does not belong in metalcore OR deathcore. Use your ears, but analyze better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.154.111.184 (talk) 01:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Those sources are less than dependable. This band is not Metalcore. They are Death Metal, and they are Progressive. I will change the page accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.144.106 (talk) 19:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

They are technical death metal so this has been added per http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=241552 Syxxpackid420 (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

It's a losing battle, so I won't argue my opinion that the band is a progressive metalcore band, but I will say that this statement: "The grindcore parts and influences are very clear on their first album, listen to it and you'll probably acknowlegde" is completely false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.7.41.19 (talk) 18:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

This band is absolutely not Technical Death Metal. They undoubtedly primarily Metalcore. It has some melodic death, influences like all Metalcore does, but very hardcore in structure and style. They don't growl or snarl like a death or black metal band, they shout like a hardcore band. They have clean singing choruses or sections of 'pretty' singing which is very typical of a metalcore band. They have breakdowns which is very Metalcore. They're chaotic at times in the line of Grindcore, so you could even give it Metalcore and Grindcore far before they should be called Technical Death Metal. Technical Death Metal as a reference is an album like Necrophagist's Onset of Putrefaction or Anata's Under a Stone with No Inscription. Between The Buried and Me does not share the traits that make these bands Technical Death. The surgical precision in both the guitars and drums is required for a Technical Death band. The lack of distortion in the guitar creating that higher pitched very clean and precise sound is another needed trait for Technical Death. Technical Death while being very complex is still coherently structured which Between the Buried and Me is not. It's the Grindcore influence that is being confused for Technical Death. Grindcore is fast with a guitar that can go crazy, however Grindcore is far less structured and often has spurts of chaoticness instead of an almost constant level of structured complexity. A reference for Grindcore is something like Pig Destroyer's Prowler In The Yard. Between the Buried and Me, especially with their earlier stuff, will go between Grindcore and hardcore elements to slower progressive sections and back. So the genre should be Progressive Metalcore, Grindcore. Deathwish238 (talk) 18:39, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

It needs to be noted that BTBAM's music is structured incredibly complex. Though I agree they aren't technical death metal, it is an insult to the band to say "Technical Death while being very complex is still coherently structured which Between the Buried and Me is not.". Especially because if you understand music theory, you will know that it isn't just put together "Willy Nilly". This is a very complex band whose music is undeniably amazing. The coherence of their music can be seen in their transcribed guitar works availible for purchase. They are transcribed by Paul Waggoner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.235.112.190 (talk) 02:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Genre WTF?

who changed BTBAM to "Alternative/pop rock"? its obvious they are not, with all of the notable sources... i reverted the edit. hopefully it'll stay that way.Guitar freak91 (talk) 04:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Dan Briggs

The link to his own page just reloads to the BTBAM page. Either remove the link or create a page for him (pref. the latter since he is also in other bands)... Planningaprisonbreak (talk) 01:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

@First comment

I agree with most of what you say.

As a general umbrella term to describe all of those though, "progressive metalcore" seems to make the best sense.

However, it's important to then describe all of the inner aspects, as a label like this does not always paint the clearest picture. Nerflapp (talk) 14:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Added References

Filled in some blanks, added where needed. Tok3ninja (talk) 19:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Name change

Was considering changing the title of the article to Between the Buried & Me. Think this applies to the MUSTARD guidelines although I'm not positive. At the least some redirects should be added for spelling the name with the & symbol. I'm also considering adding a template for the whole band including Albums, Members, those sorts of things. Is this necessary? If I finish I'll add it, feel free to take it down if it's not needed or there's good reason to get rid of it. Atallcostsky 19:21, 16 January 2009

Protest the Hero?

How is BTBAM "associated" with Protest the Hero other than the two have similar elements to their music? The associated bands section of the infobox is meant for bands whom they work very frequently with or who share band members (side projects, etc). As far as I know, this is not the case with the two aforementioned bands, as they've only toured together. --...Wikiwøw. 04:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know they don't seem to be associated whatsoever. If someone could provide a reason why they're listed as such that would be great. Otherwise I agree with wiki...thinking this should probably be removed. - User:Atallcostsky 13:04 26 January 2009 —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC).

It is fairly straightforward... the associated acts field is for bands that share members with the subject of the article. Feel free to delete others on sight. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

BTBAM's drummer provided the beginning drumming to the song "Bone Marrow" off Protest The Hero's CD "Fortress" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.200.106.72 (talk) 08:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

A guest appearance is not the same as sharing members. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The support bands for the btbam and in flames tour is wrong

The tour consists of Killswitch engage, in flames, bbtam, and protest the hero, not the faceless or 3 inches of blood or w.e they're called. http://www.presaletoday.com/in-flames-and-killswitch-engage-with-guests-protest-the-hero-and-between-the-buried-and-me-presale-passwords —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.12.31 (talk) 01:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

That page is either old or incorrect. They are definitely playing shows this year with The Faceless and 3 Inches of Blood. Those bands say so on their myspace, but here's an example from a reliable source. http://www.rialtotheatre.com/event_pop.php?id=652 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xdjx09x (talk • contribs) 15:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you are both wrong and right. I went to this show in Toronto, and the bands playing were In Flames, Between the buried and me, Protest the Hero, and Killswitch engage. However, for the US part of the tour it is the faceless, and 3 inches of blood. Protest the Hero is a Canadian band thats why they were only part of the Canadian tour, as they are most likely no longer touring to the US as they are going to be writing a new album quite soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.34.129.168 (talk) 05:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do not add the leak release dates.

This information is unnecessary as it encourages users to illegally download music off the internet before the original release date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Savagebladez (talk • contribs) 05:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

S/T not widely known?

How so? I think it's a fairly well known album, but i just wonder why it is considered not widely known, that bothers me because I've never heard that before. How many BTBAM fans don't know about this album? jburnum (talk) 18:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Discography

Hello - I'm currently working to produce a discography for the band. Anyone who wants to help out please check out my sandbox. Feel free to make edits to improve it or suggestions on the suggestions for improvement section - hopefully the article should be ready to merge with the main band's article in not too long. atallcostsky talk 21:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Associated Acts

Just a few things I'd like to bring up in regards to the Associated Acts section. I don't care enough to edit it myself and have it changed in a few days, but I'd like to see if any others agree and then act accordingly.

1. Plant Vochestra stems from a joke video on YouTube that some BTBAM and Red Chord members shot while on tour. It's not an actual side project, nor is it serious, and even though joke bands can be legitimate acts, Plant Vochestra isn't even that. I think this should be removed due to lack of legitimacy.

2. Oh, Sleeper contains Shane Blay, who wasn't a significant member of the band for any length of time. He was never featured on any albums, nor did he write anything for the band beyond apparent snippets of "All Bodies" from Alaska. He was simply a touring guitarist who was removed from the band for multiple differences in personality and style. I don't feel like they should be considered an associated act.

3. Wrath and Rapture are a North Carolina progressive metal/deathcore group. Dan Briggs played bass on their self-titled EP, but his basslines were written by the band's guitarist and he has never actually performed with or been considered a member of the band. I don't feel like that is enough to be considered an associated act, even though they do share many similarities with BTBAM.

Just to clarify, I feel like the only bands that should be mentioned in this section are Glass Casket, Orbs, Prayer For Cleansing, and, regardless of quality (:]), Giles.

Just some thoughts. Thanks.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.7.41.19 (talk) 18:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I disagree about the Shane Blay argument. He may not have been a member for very long, but he WAS a member of the band no matter how long he was actually in the band. That, to me, is enough to qualify Oh, Sleeper as an associated act. - 3:27 28 February 2011(UTC)

Edits to meet quality standards

I rewrote the "Biography" section of the article for neutrality. If someone with more experience would check it to be sure it's up to quality, that would be great. I didn't touch the "touring history" section, however, and it looks like that needs some work as well. 76.78.226.41 (talk) 01:49, 7 December 2014 (UTC)