Talk:Benvenuto Cellini (opera)

This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Opera, a group writing and editing Wikipedia articles on operas, opera terminology, opera composers and librettists, singers, designers, directors and managers, companies and houses, publications and recordings. The project discussion page is a place to talk about issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!OperaWikipedia:WikiProject OperaTemplate:WikiProject OperaOpera articles

France

	France portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

US premiere[edit]

I can't find a citation that gives the US premiere in 1965, but several sources indicate the Sarah Caldwell Boston 1975 production as the true US premiere. I'll try to dig later, but any thoughts now? Thanks, DJRafe 19:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IMO change it to the later date with the reference cited - it's more solid. It'll mean that if someone wants to say it's earlier, to change it they'll have to provide the source. Btw, thanks for working on this article :D Le the 21:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done; thanks for the feedback. DJRafe 21:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Viking Opera Guide says the US premiere was 3 May, 1975 in Boston. --Folantin 07:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bernardino[edit]

This seems odd: the creator listed would apparently have been 4 at the time of the premiere, while his father Pierre was a tenor. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pierre was born in 1806 (says Grove Opera, which doesn't mention Louis-Émile and, if Amadeus is to be believed - which it isn't always - sang the cabaretier (not listed in the roles table) in the premiere. I suppose that at the age of 32, he could have had a 15- or 16-year-old son? OTOH, Émile Wartel does indeed say that he'd have been 4 in 1838. --GuillaumeTell 11:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to Rosenthal & Warrack's The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Opera, second edition, 1979, p. 541, "Louis Emile Wartel (1834-?), was a bass who sang at the T.L., 1857–70." "T.L." refers to the Théâtre Lyrique. (He's also listed the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians with dates of 31 March 1834 to after 1865.) It's not unheard of for Amadeus to fill in blanks with bad guesses like this. That was certainly the case for Mignon, where a singer who was already dead was listed for a role (among several other errors). Although the poster for the premiere lists Wartel as a singer, this was possibly his father in the minor tenor role of the cabaretier (which Amadeus also lists). T. J. Walsh's 1981 book confirms Louis Emile sang at the Théâtre Lyrique and has numerous entries indexed under "Wartel, Louis Emile (1834-?)". --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Sorry, I missed the link to Émile Wartel until just now. Now I see why Cg2p0B0u8m picked up on this error. Good job. --Robert.Allen (talk) 10:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pitou lists Massol in the role of Cardinal Salviati, but Holoman assigns him to Fieramosca (like AmadeusOnline). Massol started out as a tenor, but became a baritone so as not to compete with Nourrit. "Massol's imposing physique and voice made him a most effective 'heavy' baritone" (according to Phillip Robinson in New Grove Opera). --Robert.Allen (talk) 06:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Minor roles[edit]

If one looks at the poster advertising the first performance (reproduced from Holoman's book), it can be seen that there was only one singer by the name of Wartel. In addition, Trévaux (a tenor) and Molinier (a baritone or bass?) sang minor roles. If I had to guess, I would say Trévaux sang Francesco, and Molinier sang Bernardino. AmadeusOnline seems to think that Molinier is a tenor, but he was more likely a baritone or bass. Check Robert Letellier's book on the operas of Meyerbeer [1]. There are other contemporary sources which identify a French "baryton" Molinier who sang at provincial theaters in Ghent [2], Le Havre [3], and Liège [4]. My suggestion is that we should generally try to verify information obtained from AmadeusOnline with independent sources. --Robert.Allen (talk) 10:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Results from AmadeusOnline[edit]

I added additional evidence to the article that four minor roles are probably listed incorrectly at AmadeusOnline. I would like to document the results obtained from that database here in case it changes in the future. (I feel it is important to document these differences as we find them.)

10 Settembre 1838, Lunedì première (insuccesso) nel Théâtre de l'Académie Royale de Musique (Opéra, Salle de la rue Le Peletier) di Parigi di "Benvenuto Cellini" op. 23, opera semiseria (1° versione) in 2 atti e 4 quadri di Hector Berlioz, libretto di Armand François Léon de Wailly e Henri Auguste Barbier, dirige François-Antoine Habeneck {soprano Julie-Aimée-Josèphe Dorus-Gras (Teresa), mezzosoprano "en travesti" Rosine Stoltz (Ascanio), tenori Gilbert-Louis Duprez (Benvenuto Cellini), Molinier (Francesco) e Pierre-François Wartel (cabaretier), baritoni Jean-Étienne-August Eugène Massol (Fieramosca) e Ferdinand Prévost (Pompeo), bassi Nicolas-Prosper Dérivis (Giacomo Balducci), Louis-Émile Wartel (Bernardino/cardinal/officier) e Jacques-Émil Serda (cardinal Salviati/Clément VII), recitante (Colombine)}

--Robert.Allen (talk) 08:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

picture for Act 3[edit]

It would be nice to have this picture of the statue somewhere in Act 3 as another illustration, but I don't know how to compress it (as you can see, but it can be deleted). Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:56, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How's this? You can also change the size by putting 100px| (or any other number of px) after thumb - and/or left| if you want it on the left rather than the right. --GuillaumeTell 22:01, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much - I have copied this on the synopsis section. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine (I moved it up a bit to eliminate white space). There is, however, no Act 3. On the other hand, I notice that in the notes there's some unsourced stuff about a Weimer [sic] version. There's no source for the synopsis either, and it looks as if the article could do with a bit more attention. --GuillaumeTell 00:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Act 3 was a mistake, but near the end when the cast is made is good. Someone who's an expert on the versions could improve it. I am trying to find reference for the vast Lyon production. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 00:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Benvenuto Cellini (opera). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]