Talk:Barranquenho

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This article needs to be expanded. learnportuguese 20:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Spelling

Who, exactly, uses the spelling "barranquenhu", with a "u"? FilipeS 15:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The inhabitants there??!!? At least if one acceptes the spelling presented in the site Mubimêntu du Pobu Barranquenhu di Barrancû en Purtugá (MPB)... And I seem to recall have seen it spelled like that somewhere else. Can't remember where! The Ogre 15:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that site is serious?... One of their links is to the Mobimento Cíbico Portucalense. FilipeS 21:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not at all sure... The Ogre 10:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Barranquenhu learning

"but it is learned in school by children" who says that? I doubt it very much, but I will ask a barranquenho friend of mine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfdneves (talk • contribs)

Ridiculous situation

A stupid mistake in Ethnologue seems to be much more reliable than a fellow WP editor with 9 years of experience. Extremaduran language is a recent label for a number of vernaculars spoken in northern Extremadura which have a number of traits that set them apart from southern Spanish dialects. A few of these traits are somewhat reminiscent of Astur-Leonese languages proper. For the rest of Extremadura, nobody would seriously claim that anything but (southern) dialects of Spanish language are spoken.

Baranquenho, spoken in Portugal near the southern tip of Extremadura, is a mixed language, not part of any current or past dialect continuum, with several traits typical of southern Spanish dialects in general. Because it is spoken near Extremadure, some scatterbrain in Ethnologue got confused and imagined it had some relation to Extremaduran, and now apparently I have to find a source that says that Barranquenho is not a dialect of Extremaduran, for which I have roughly the same probability as that of finding a source that says that Barranquenho is not a dialect of Russian or Barranquenho is not a dialect of Tamil. It's a ridiculous situation so please tell me, what in the world can be done now? --Jotamar (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

You can provide sources, like everyone else. Ethnologue is often wrong, but unless you've published your nine years of experience in a refereed journal, it's just OR.

The claim, BTW, is that it was settled from an Extremaduran-speaking area, thus the Extre in the mix, and that old people continued to speak Extremaduran until rather recently, not just that it's near Extremadura. — kwami (talk) 17:37, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

The claim is that it was settled from Badajoz, way south from the Extremaduran language area, though obviously inside the area of the Extremaduran dialects of Spanish. Anyway no claim is made in any source that Barranquenho is closer to the Spanish dialects of Extremadura than to those of Andalusia, and in addition those dialects are virtually identical in the area of Spain near Barrancos at both sides of the administative line between Extremadura and Andalusia.

However, the main question is, what kind of sourced statement would make you finally realise that there is nothing but a plain mistake in Ethnologue? --Jotamar (talk) 23:05, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

See WP:RS. Since Ethn. isn't much of a RS, it wouldn't take much, but popular (i.e. non-linguistic) accounts of languages are generally close to worthless. — kwami (talk) 02:16, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm asking what kind of statement, not what kind of source. --Jotamar (talk) 18:22, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Then nothing would convince me. We rely on sources, not on people insisting that they're right and that everyone else needs to take their word for it. — kwami (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

If you're trying to irritate me, then you're beginning to succeed. You need a source, but what should that source state? --Jotamar (talk) 18:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

So you say this is simply an Andalusian Spanish dialect? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The sources are very clear: Barranquenho is simply a mixture of the local Portuguese with the local Spanish of the towns on the other side of the border. --Jotamar (talk) 18:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The description in this article shows almost exclusively traits that are typical of Andalusian Spanish, with the sole exceptions of the pronunciation of final -e as [i] (though easily acquired through interference/contact) and uma. On the other hand, the German article says clearly that Barranquenho is a southern Portuguese dialect (specifically an Alentejano dialect), and describes traits aligning with that. The most plausible and simple explanation, IMHO, is that the local dialect was originally southern Extremaduran, which has at least since the 18th century apparently effectively been a kind of Andalusian Spanish with an Extremaduran (Astur-Leonese) sub- or adstratum, and was overlaid by Alentejano only in the past few centuries, leading to contemporary Barranquenho effectively being a southern Portuguese dialect with a strong Andalusian substratum; or possibly (but I'd have to inspect actual language data to determine this) it's actually still the old Andalusian Spanish dialect with a strong Portuguese superstratum. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:35, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

You can lead your own research if you're interested, but there's plenty of sources about Barranquenho (in Spanish) and all of them seem to agree on 2 points: (1) it's a recent development, possibly from the 19th century (2) it is just a mixture of the Portuguese vernaculars as spoken west of the town and the Spanish vernaculars as spoken east, with no special traits of its own, other than the fact of being a mixture. By the way, I find pretty irrelevant whether those Spanish vernaculars should be called Andalusian or Extremaduran. --Jotamar (talk) 19:41, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

"Just a mixture" is a vague, un-scientific description. Even generally acknowledged mixed languages are not mixed haphazardly, but in ways that have been described precisely. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:55, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Portuñol (or Portunhol)

How does Barranquenho compare to Portuñol, the mix of Spanish and Portuguese spoken in border areas of Brazil and Uruguay—or even to the Portuñol dialects spoken elsewhere along the Spanish–Portuguese border? 66.234.209.139 (talk) 08:19, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Apparently, both varieties are not particularly similar, they take different features from Spanish and from Portuguese. --Jotamar (talk) 14:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)