Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 23

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Bill Ayers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
The result of this discussion was no consensus. Neither side (inclusion/exclusion) is budging, and the only attention the poll seems to be attracting now is SPA/sockpuppet activity. Shem(talk) 17:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Initial !Votes

  1. #1, after reflection overnight, is now my first choice. #3 is my second choice. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. I'd support #3 as well -- FWIW, I don't buy the argument that there needs to be lots of detail here "so people will know what the controversy is about; they won't click the links otherwise." I think folks are generally savvy enough to follow links if they have any interest in learning more about the controversy. (This point is beyond the NPOV points that things like "unrepentant terrorist" are neither neutral nor unambiguously true.) Mfenger (talk) 14:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. While I agree with you on options 1 or 2, I think number 3 would be a more agreeable revision that people can get behind. I also wanted to ask if there is an election controversy article? Brothejr (talk) 14:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  4. No. 5, but No. 4 is OK... while Scjessey's No. 6 is too sensationalistic. — Justmeherenow (   ), through stark illumination of an associate's guilts, is----conceivably----appropriate. — Justmeherenow (   ) 18:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC) But I equally support a stingently neutral No. 8 — Justmeherenow (   ) 22:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  5. I support No. 5. No. 7 No. 1 is ludicrous. No. 2 is slightly less ridiculous. No. 6 would be over the top, even though news media have been consistent in calling Ayers "unrepentant terrorist." — WorkerBee74 (talk• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 15:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC). I have changed my preference to No. 7 effective June 3. WorkerBee74 (talk) 16:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  6. I would support #3, and I must congratulate Scjessey on taking this move, hopefully we can continue like this on future points. Please call me when we move onto the next point incase I miss it. — Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 15:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  7. "I choose Noroton's No. 7 option or failing that, reluctantly Scjessey's No. 6, or No. 5 as a last resort." (transcluded from here) Kossack4Truth, 22:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  8. #3 or #4 Obama's relationship with Ayers's wife hasn't really been a factor in what I've seen in the media reports about Ayers and Obama, so I don't see why she should be included in the article. #5 and #6 are definitely too much information. If anyone is interested in finding out more information about the Weathermen, there name is wikilinked and they can click to that article. Wikipedia doesn't add (an Islamic terrorist organization) after every mention of Al Qaeda, nor does it add (a militant Irish nationalist organization) after every mention of the IRA, I don't see why the Weatherman would be any different. --Bobblehead (rants) 16:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  9. #1 is best. #3 or #4 are acceptable. #5+ are definitely no good, and clearly violate Wikipedia policy (moreover, the gratuitous introduction of Dohrn makes no sense, only Ayers was subject to any media coverage, perhaps outside a few fringe sources). While all that "unrepentant terrorist" bullshit is way over the top (and libelous), if Ayers is mentioned, some adjective describing Ayers' left-wing politics gives some context (against 2). "Radical activist" is cleanest, since it follows the source and Ayers own article. But "Weatherman founder" is factual. "(former) Militant" seems plausible. In any case, nothing more than a word or two describing him, not clauses and sentences of rambling condemnation of Ayers (and also not irrelevant-to-controversy details like his academic title and book publications that sometimes creep in as pseudo-balance). LotLE×talk
  10. #1 for Ayers specifically as a matter of weight and relevance because he seems utterly insignificant as a factor in Obama's life or career. It is of interest only as a controversy in the 2008 election, and there are far more pertinent articles about that than this biography of Obama. Put information where it most logically fits; don't repeat attack politics issues in every possible article about every subject touched by them. Wikidemo (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  11. #7 My reasoning is found, among other spots, at the "Consensus-building discussion" section below, and I hope others comment there. Voting is not going to get us to consensus, discussion does that. Noroton (talk) 23:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC) update: Noroton (talk) 00:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  12. #3 seems better balanced to me. A little niggle tho --- "he was joined on the board" might infer that Ayers joined the board to team up with Obama, rather than simply be his own man on a multi-member board. Or is that the intention anyway?. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  13. Number 5 is most preferable to me, but considering the strong support for number 3, I would advocate the use of that option. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 06:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  14. #1 Upon careful consideration, I've come to conclusion that there really isn't any reason to include minor campaign attacks in a biography, no matter how much noise a small group of editors is willing to make. #3 I would be willing to support this version. Although personally I feel it is a campaign issue (and a minor one at that) requiring no mention in the bio, the consensus seems to be leaning towards some mention of Ayers. Given that, #2 doesn't particularly work because it doesn't provide enough context for why we are mentioning this particular person (as opposed to any other random guy who he crossed paths or worked with in Chicago). The others seem to go too far in the other direction (far too much information that is irrelevant to Obama). --Loonymonkey (talk) 09:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  15. No. 7 was chosen by Andyvphil here "I strongly suspect there will be more information on this subject, but I can accept this for now ..." WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC) :"... if it is modified to indicate that it wasn't some random fundraiser, but the announcement of Obama's first political campaign." Actually, I think the alternatives we are answering are the wrong ones entirely. The Woods and first Chairman of Chicago Annenberg Challenge[1][2] positions belong in Early Career, with no need to mention Ayers in that context at this point since we don't yet have RS demonstrating that the Ayers connection was then significant to Obama's career. (This may change[3] once the Repubs, who don't have Clinton's perennial problems of a certain blindness to the issues due to shared POV, and not wanting to alienate a motivated portion of potential workforce, fundraising, and electorate, get seriously involved.) Ayers needs to appear with Rezko and Wright in the campaign section, where the significance is clear. Andyvphil (talk) 23:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC) ...and indeed somenone has removed all mention of Ayers from Early Career. So I've gone ahead and made the campaign mention more specific.[4] The hagiographers will no doubt have the whitewash back in place by the time you see this. Could've written it a little better, but some editors don't like "Ayers joined Obama" and I'll try to oblige even half-reasonable expressions of concern. Andyvphil (talk) 14:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  16. #4 or #5 get equal first-ranked votes, #3 or #7 get equal second-ranked votes, #2 next, #1 and #6 equally last. I'm a "Sanger co-founder" of WP:08. JJB 18:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  17. No. 3 or No. 4. It is appropriate to mention Ayers, note who he is (Weathermen founder), and link to the relevant articles. Ayers's wife has not been a significant issue in the campaign, let alone in Obama's life. Ayers himself barely ranks as a minor character. All we have is one mention in the debates and scattered newspaper stories (very few in proportion to the total amount of stories written on Obama or the campaign). It's about on par with the flag pin thing, which would be silly to mention here.Northwesterner1 (talk) 18:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  18. #3 Like Loony, I don't think Ayers needs to be in this bio at all, just a brief mention in the separate campaign article - I'd point out that the story has not increased in significance in the mainstream media as time has passed - but I too can see that some folks won't give up on it here so I can live with option #3. Dohrn does not belong in this article, and the higher numbered options are inappropriatedly detailed, and done so with bias. So I can support #3, but would prefer #1. Tvoz/talk 18:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  19. #5 is my preference, but #3 seems acceptable as well. I fail to see where those two options apply undue weight or push a POV. - Masonpatriot (talk) 19:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  20. 8. Instead of phrasing the coincidence of their joint affiliation as notable, it would be better to approach this from a NPOV perspective in a list of criticisms, controversies, etc - "commentators such as X criticized Obama for his ties with Bill Ayers" to begin, then a description of Ayers, then a description of the associations, then a description of Obama's statements on the matter. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  21. No. 8, since you're asking. To refute the deliberate misinterpretation below by one of the Whitewash Brigade, this means No. 7 plus the words "unrepentant terrorist" and a brief list of Weatherman bombing targets, along with appropriate RS links. 68.29.208.59 (talk) 11:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  22. No. 1 - nothing in this particular article. Move this discussion to his presidential campaign article if you like, but 'suggestions' such as the one directly above this one speak for themselves. We're an encyclopedia, not a red-top tabloid - try to keep that in mind before you destroy the Wikipedia project. We have a Bill Ayers article, and we have a Bill Ayers election controversy article. Why are these 'helpful Wikipedians' here so interested in copying the ooh! ooh! parts of those articles (and much, much more!) into this one? Because they're deathly afraid some credulous voter, somewhere, somehow, might miss their propaganda war. Nice try guys, but that sort of thing really belongs in personal blogs. Not in Wikipedia. Tell you what - why don't you write equally 'scandalous' material about each and every other person who served on the Woods board with Obama? You know, like the directors of USB and Skidmore, Owings and Merrill? How about all the other people who served on panels with Obama? Or who donated to his campaign? Instead, all you do is find a new place to have this same ridiculous argument, each time hoping you can restrict it to your 'buddies' and quickly come to some fake consensus before 'normal Wikipedians' can find where you've squirreled it away. And I'm suppoed to assume good faith on your part? I'm not that gullible and stupid, thank you very much. imo you're a disgrace to the mission of Wikipedia - and worse, you don't care. Flatterworld (talk) 17:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  23. I withdraw from the poll, and reject it as being useful for building consensus. This Ayers business is a WP:BLP matter, and this vote is moot. Furthermore, the "spectrum" of options creates a false dichotomy which isn't useful for establishing consensus (as evidenced by those attempting to create a numerical average as "consensus"). Shem(talk) 23:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  24. No. 4. I think it's important to have some fact about Ayers in this article, or else nobody will understand why he is being mentioned or why controversy about him exists. Noting that he founded Weatherman is about as neutral as you can get -- it only has negative connotations if you already know what the organization is and have a negative viewpoint about it. At that point, you're entitled to your opinion about the guy. If you don't know what it is, you can click the link to find out without first having your opinion informed by all the vocabulary people are freaking out about ("violent," "terrorist," etc). That said, I don't think the Bio section is the place for it. We can't verify what actual impact Ayers had on Obama personally, only on his campaign. Slurms MacKenzie (talk) 17:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  25. #5 - second choice #4. Definitely not this watered-down-let's-not-step-on-anyone's-toes of #8, nor #1. The Evil Spartan (talk) 18:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  26. #5 then #4. That is enough detail and not POV. Hope I am not too late.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  27. #1, this is a fellow-traveller allegation. And if you don't believe that, would YOU like to be tarred with the sins of anybody you ever worked with for your whole life? --BenBurch (talk) 23:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This !voting, as per WP:VOTE guideline, only opens consensus discussion, which continues below

Tally

"13 of the 25 votes cast have indicated that #3 would be acceptable (6 of those as clear first choice), with more than twice the number of votes of the next choice. #1 is first choice of 7 editors. (votes on #8 are hard to place in the scale)" ---ANONYMOUS--- Please sign and date any such selective "tally". Andyvphil (talk) 23:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

But nearly high a %----13-out-of-20---go along with something more inclusive. — Justmeherenow (   ) 23:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This count by Justmeherenow is simply incorrect. It's hard to know how to interpret the new vote for "#8" (to me it says to use exactly the wording currently on the page [which I wrote]), but it's not very specific about characterization or verbosity. In any case, someone saying "#4 is acceptable" is fundamentally different from accepting 5+, they cannot be lumped together. #5-#7 are fundamental violations of WP:BLP, are directly libelous, and can never be allowed on WP (and thankfully, they also only get a few fringe "votes"). #3 is still a bit better than #4, but either is factual rather than libel, and the two word difference has nothing to do with "more inclusive". LotLE×talk 23:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
How interesting that that many votes should be on the page ... how do you suppose that happened? How many more votes do you expect we'll get by tomorrow afternoon? Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, although I guess my preference isn't going to make it. But it's just a guess. Noroton (talk) 00:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
(Since options are presented among a spectrum, which falls on its median? Eg among 19 votes among options 1-7, we statistically throw out----OK folks, this is only figuratively----nine top-spectrum votes and nine bottom-spectrum votes to be left with exactly one at mid-spectrum. Which happens to be mid 3-to-4.) — Justmeherenow (   ) 12:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Possible ballots
It's already there as vote #16 above. JJB 22:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
We could try finding the average vote, it would at least be interesting to see. Turn the vote number into points, add the points up and divide by 11 (number of people who voted). Some people has said they would accept more than one number eg 2,3 or 4, their point score should be considered to be 3 therefore. We need a total score and divide it by the people. Otherwise we are discounting the "fringe" views of people on both sides, those who say 1 or 2 and those who say 6+. Theoretically they will cancel eachother out, but it should be seen that they were included in the mix. — Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 02:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The average choice using Realist's method, converting each number and adding them up, then dividing by the number of editors who posted their choices, is 4.4333333 so any effort to install any "consensus" for anything other than No. 4 or No. 5 at this point is illegitimate. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that it's not balanced. 1 and 2 are not fringe opinions, they're valid concerns about weight and relevance. 3 already has some weight and sourcing problems because it claims there is an "association" between Obama and Ayers. The fact that a single person held a single fundraiser for a politician says next to nothing about the politician; it's included only for the controversy. Anything 5 and above is heavy-duty POV pushing. The problem is that it assumes we have a reasonable distribution of fair editors with different opinions. I see a considerable number of reasonable editors plus a handful who have flocked here to try to discredit someone running for office. If this were an either / or question of including controversial content or not those POV-pushers would sooner or later be left out of a consensus. By posting this as a spectrum of just how much controversial content to include it gives them too much weight. Wikidemo (talk) 03:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You must also understand though that those people who vote 6+ consider 1 or 2 a "fringe". It works both ways and we must respect eachothers opinions even if we disagree. Accusing the 6+ of trying to derail the campaign of Obama is a huge breach of AGF. It can be argued that both sides here have an agenda or it can be argued that both sides are trying to do what they feel is best for the article. Please dont discredit the anti obama people of destroying the article, likewise the pro obama side shouldn't be accused of whitewashing. — Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 03:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
No, it does not work both ways, and there is no breach of AGF by noting disruptive and POV edits for what they are. As I said, when there is a range of reasonable opinions there can be a reasonable discussion along that line. When there are tendentious POV editors on one side and people trying to keep order, it makes no sense to pretend the discussion is anything other than what it is.Wikidemo (talk) 03:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You seem to have the lowest score, i disagree with your opinion as much as I do the 6+ people, i still respect both sides though. I wouldnt call you a whitewasher and I wouldnt call them "trying to derail Obamas chances". Personally, i voted for 3 so you would think i would be jumping up and doww with happiness that most agree. However i want both extremes to be heard as well, even if it shifts away from being 3. — Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 04:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Good for you. But no, a number of people correctly surmise the subject does not deserve a mention in this article, and should instead be covered elsewhere, per content policies and guidelines, but the way the vote is structured it assumes a fait accompli that we should cover it. Thus, I am dubious that this process can achieve any real consensus. Please don't confuse taking a position in the middle of a biased pack with neutrality. Wikidemo (talk) 09:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not a breach of anything, it's a fact. The very fact that you characterize people as "anti obama" and "pro obama" makes that clear. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to carry out political agendas -- and that's the only reason to include this stuff on this page. -- 98.108.203.136 (talk) 12:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments (please remove your votes from the comment section)

Comment. Ayers is (or was) a current campaign issue that does not belong in the "Early Life" section, where it was given undue weight and misplaced as being significant (in its own right). Its best fit is in the campaign section where it is now, as a barely notable reaction to a debate. But, on the particulars that might be agreed too? Eke! I'll abstain on that question for the moment. Modocc (talk) 15:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Certainly the issue is related to the campaign, and the media coverage it has drawn should be covered in the campaign article; however, in this BLP I think it would be best situated in the "Early life and career" section for reasons of chronological accuracy. There is a difference between describing the association (appropriate for "Early life and career") and describing the controversy surrounding the association (appropriate for the campaign article, but not really for the biography). That is why I went the route of the examples I offered above. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
But, Scjessey, the amended text is not describing their association! It is only a coatrack about a controversy about Ayers' prior militancy. The "concerns" may or may not have little bearing on the significance of their relation, but its not for us to make such a case, and the airing of the particular "concerns" raised belong elsewhere. I'd prefer examining additions to the current consensus version. At least two contributing editors on opposing sides as well as others support the current placement. Modocc (talk) 16:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. I think the original consensus text (option 2) neatly describes how Ayers and Obama were associated (Woods fund, fundraising event). The controversial aspects of Ayer's life can only be gleaned by following the blue link to his biography - a solution which I still believe is the most appropriate. Options 3 and up are the versions which fall into WP:COATRACK issues, but it must be understood that these are just examples designed to illustrate the level of detail, rather than actual usable text (as I indicated in my introduction to the section). I'm trying to get a sense of the specifics of what to include, and once that is agreed upon we can figure out how best to incorporate those specifics into the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
We will have to disagree then. I'm OK with getting a "sense" of specifics perhaps (I've seen plenty put forth). But, the level of importance of Ayers involvement in his early life is very controversial. Thus, in my view, the later scrutiny in the campaign section is the more appropriate NPOV context that should be used to introduce Ayers content into the article. Modocc (talk) 17:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The Weathermen engaged in about twenty bombings. They went on to rob armored cars and kill people. Makes them different from the FSM and the SDS, but like the BLA. Unlike AQ and the IRA, not everyone knows this. The idea that ought to introduce the name without explanation is absurd. Describing Ayers as a "former radical activist" is concealment. He's said he doesn't regret the bombings. It was the first Obama candidate clatch he hosted, not some random one. He selected Obama to head the Annenberg Challenge and Obama at the least didn't object to bringing Ayers onto the Woods Board and Ayers' later selection as chairman, since both decisions were by consensus. There's two POVs on the significance of this and NPOV requires not suppressing either. Andyvphil (talk) 22:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Weathermen has its own article and the expectation for #4 is that it will be linked in this article. Anyone that is unclear as to what the group was can click on the link and discover more about the group. The whole point of the links between articles in Wikipedia is that if someone is not familiar with the term, they can click on the link and find out about that term.--Bobblehead (rants) 22:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I do think this makes more sense to introduce in the campaign section. While it's not strict chronology of initial acquaintance, that follows the chronology of what made something (perhaps) worth putting in the bio. Likewise, if there is discussion of Wright, it shouldn't solely (or mostly) be at 1985 in the the chronology, but rather at 2008.LotLE×talk 17:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  • No attempt has been made in this supposedly broad range of options to get at the central point that several of us have made above -- that the biggest reason why Ayers has been a controversial association for Obama is that he was violent as well as unrepentant about it. That Scjessy would ignore this in his supposed fair attempt to describe the range of options, after all that's been discussed about this already, makes me deeply suspicious at the same time that Scjessy is calling for "civil" discussion. If you sincerely want civil discussion, why provoke irritation among most of the people who so far have disagreed with you? The way you set these options up doesn't give confidence that you're actually trying to reach an actual consensus. If I'm wrong, Scjessey, feel free to admit your mistake, and add my option to the mix. And if I've missed something in my description of how you've done this, feel free to correct me and I'll drop my suspicions. As I said at 23:43 May 27: I just want the situation with Ayers accurately presented with just enough detail that readers will get the gist of it and be able to follow a blue link or two to find out more. I suggested this language before and I'll bring it up here again. Call it "Option 7":
Between 1993 and 2002, Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a philanthropic organization providing grants to Chicago's disadvantaged people and communities.[13] In 1999 he was joined on the board by Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996.[13] Obama's association with Ayers, a well-known former member of the violent radical group Weather Underground who had not renounced the group's violent actions, would later draw scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign. Noroton (talk) 17:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I strongly suspect there will be more information on this subject, but I can accept this for now if it is modified to indicate that it wasn't some random fundraiser, but the announcement of Obama's first political campaign. Andyvphil (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

@Noroton - I think you have misunderstood my intention here. If you note #7 of the list above, you will see that there are additional "options" available that I simply didn't write. The example text I offered was not intended to be the actual wording, but merely a representation of the "sliding scale" of views. This is more of a fact and opinion-gathering exercise to see if we can move toward a consensus. I will immediately add your "option" to the list (so that #7 will become #8) -- Scjessey (talk) 18:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

But of course it's not a sliding scale, it's one end of a sliding scale. Therefore it fails as an exercise toward a broad consensus. What it does is build up a group of exclusionist editors in order to face down the inclusionist side. That's not consensus-building, and ultimately it won't be effective. Look, out there in the real world, if you look at the coverage so far, the overwhelming consensus is that these associations of Obama's (and this is one of the top ones) have been a big issue in the campaign, and his controversial associations are definitely about his life. Ultimately, you're not going to get a consensus to either erase the article's coverage of that or whitewash it by removing essential details (that is, the bare outline of what made these associations controversial). Like it or not, this article is too big for a broad range of Wikipedians to accept that kind of treatment -- not for Obama, McCain, Clinton or George W. Bush. If I'm wrong, we'll see, but I warn you: It's better to attempt a moderate compromise on something this prominent, because the pressure won't stop and eventually you'll lose. If I'm wrong, we'll just see, but I recommend that you re-evaluate your strategy and position. Noroton (talk) 18:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Wait a minute, I was distracted by a disruptive edit just a little while ago, and I must have ignored your last two sentences. I appreciate that, and you've removed my suspicions. Thank you. I'm crossing out that part of my post immediately above. Noroton (talk) 18:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Norton, you can put what you like on the list of suggestions, but frankly no1 aside you will agree with it, hardly anyone here wants to go above 5 on the scale, add what you like but you wont get much support. — Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 18:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, we'll see. Nice user name, by the way. Noroton (talk) 18:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I too think Noroton is unduly hopeful of wider attention from editors with less impacted bias, but we'll see. Andyvphil (talk) 22:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I would note that the current language is almost exactly "#3", which is getting majority support among editors. The only difference is that the current language (because I wrote it carefully) avoids any suggestion about why Ayers joined the board (i.e. not implying it was to "join Obama" or whatever). Of course, the language currently there is also in the Prez Election section, where I, at least, think it flows better. To put it there, a slightly different sentence structure is needed, but not different in respect to the characterization discussion (LotLE×talk 02:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)):

Obama's association with Bill Ayers was also questioned in an ABC debate. Former radical activist Bill Ayers had joined Obama on the Woods Foundation board in 1999[1] and had hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996.[2]

I also think that Kaiwhakahaere makes a good point above regarding "he was joined on the board" which implies intent and would change that phrase to read something like "In 1999, also joining the board was Bill Ayers..." ' or something a little less awkward. Tvoz/talk 19:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


  • Comment I believe that edits should be evenhanded and come from a NPOV, but to me the most important issues should be notability (within the context of that article) and verifiablity of the information in question. No doubt the people listed above should be included in the respective articles, but they shouldn't take up a majority of the article (and some of them are more notable than others within the context of each person - i.e. Wright > Rezko within the Obama artice). My $0.02. - Masonpatriot (talk) 19:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair treatment of Obama should be similar to how we treat other candidates

I would like anybody who thinks that it is wrong to mention other people associated with Obama in this article to consider how Wikipedia treats the following biographies of the major candidates:

  • Hilary Rodham Clinton — numerous mentions of various people that put Clinton in a negative light. Regarding people associated in some way with Clinton:
    • The Presidential campaign of 2008 section has three sentences on Norman Hsu, who was certainly less close to Clinton than the Rev. Wright has been to Obama.
    • The same section has several sentences on comments by another Clinton associate who puts the candidate in a bad light: Bill Clinton's controversial comments about race and the campaign. Surely that is worth keeping in the article on Hilary Clinton.
    • The same section has two sentences on Geraldine Ferraro's comments that put the Clinton campaign, and by extension, Hilary Clinton, in a bad light in the eyes of some.
    • Regarding other negative information on Clinton (usually full paragraphs on each thing mentioned), there is the cattle futures contract (in two different places in the article), conflict-of-interest charges in Arkansas regarding the Rose Law Firm; controversy involving her term on the Wal-Mart board of directors; the controversy/investigation on missing legal papers in her East Wing White House office regarding the Whitewater controversy; and Clinton's sniper-fire gaffe during the campaign (a sentence).
  • John McCain:
    • Information on Richard Keating (footnotes 84-87; John McCain#House and Senate career, 1982–2000 section: Amount of space: two paragraphs
    • ADDED POINT: The article does not mention the Rev. John C. Hagee whose controversial remarks about Catholics and about the Holocaust caused McCain to disassociated himself from the minister. The article also does not mention McCain's ties to a lobbyist that some suspected was having an affair with him. (Personally, I think the Hagee stuff belongs in that article, in a sentence or two, and a link to the lobbyist controversy article should also be there, but it's a point in favor of the exclusionist side in this discussion that those two people are not mentioned in the article.)
  • Rudy Giuliani:
    • Rudy Giuliani#Early life and education: This section opens by telling the reader his father "had trouble holding a job and had been convicted of felony assault and robbery and served time in Sing Sing" and worked as a Mafia enforcer for his brother-in-law who "ran an organized crime operation involved in loan sharking and gambling at a restaurant in Brooklyn." Mind you, this last quote is about Giuliani's uncle.
    • The Mayoral campaigns, 1989, 1993, 1997 section has a subsection called "Appointees as defendants" consisting of a paragraph each on scandals/controversies involving Russell Harding and Bernard Kerik, and the Kerik paragraph is preceded by: "Main article: Rudy Giuliani promotions of Bernard Kerik" Kerik is mentioned in at least two other places in the article. "Post-mayorality" section is one ("Politics" subsection), and the "Family" section, where the last paragraph is a sentence stating that Giuliani is godfather to Kerik's children.
    • Other negative information on Giuliani includes part of the Legal career section, which opens with details his draft deferment in a paragraph; another paragraph is devoted to criticism of his setting up public perp-walks for arrested Wall Street bigwigs and then eventually dropping prosecutions of them. That paragraph is larger than Giuliani's leading the prosecution in one of the biggest Mafia trials in history (perhaps the most important).

Presidential candidates are big boys (and a big girl), and they get tough treatment in the media because they are trying to get a very powerful, very important job. We don't overprotect them on Wikipedia just as the U.S. media and international media don't protect them. The exclusionist side of this discussion appears to want far higher standards for inclusion of information about Obama than we have for Hilary Clinton, John McCain or Rudolph Giuliani. This goes against both Wikipedia practice and policy & guidelines. Anyone who scrolls up can find a (too-long, I admit it) examination of how Wikipedia treats past presidents Thomas Jefferson, Harry Truman and even William McKinley (see "More candidates for the fat farm" subsection). All those articles also mention people associated with the subject of the article, including in a negative context. This information is commonly thought to be necessary to fully understand the subject of the article. So I have a question for the exclusionist side: What is it about the Ayers, Wright and Rezko situations that justifies treating Obama any different from the other candidates? If you can't answer this, you should support Option 7. Noroton (talk) 02:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As noted above ("ADDED POINT"), I just added a point in the McCain section. Noroton (talk) 03:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that making POV statements about people with an alleged connection to the candidate is inappropriate, no matter who the candidate is. "Unrepentant" is an opinion, NOT a factual statement. It's not about Obama, it's about Ayers, who is not the subject of this article. Two reasons not to put it in. I also think it's disingenuous to say that words like "unrepentant" and "terrorist" are necessary to let readers know what the controversy is about. Saying there is a controversy, with a link to the explanation of the controversy, is absolutely all that is necessary to let any reasonable reader know that clicking on the link will take them to an explanation, presumably with all the nuances involved. Adding characterizations of the parties involved, even if "supported" by other media sources (whether it's the NYT or the National Review), does not make the characterizations neutral. Especially when the sources themselves are opinion (or "analysis") pieces. Mfenger (talk) 05:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(1) I haven't seen the word "terrorist" used on this page for a while, although my #7 uses "violent" and "unrepentant". (2) Your position is that the main biography page should obfuscate as to the actual nub of whatever controversy is being referred to. Mine is that we should be as clear as possible consistent with being relatively brief. That's what is done in the other biography articles I link to. (3) It is a simple fact, as you know from reading the discussion earlier on this page, that the mainstream reliable sources agree on "unrepentant" and "violent" and even if you were to consider it an opinion, Wikipedia reports on opinions. (4) I saw a very supportive comment about Ayers at the bottom of one of his blog pages, signed M[ichael?] Fenger. Was that you, Mfenger? (5) Please address my point: Why should Obama be treated differently from the norm of similar articles? Noroton (talk) 05:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(1) I would say that "violent" and, more emphatically, "unrepentant", are unnecessarily POV; as I also said, it seems to me that the #3 selection is descriptive enough to let any reasonable reader know that clicking on the link will send them to the discussion fo the particulars. (2) It's not "obfuscation", it's avoiding charged terms in favor of neutral terms. Certainly, #3 gives enough information to anyone interested in learning more about the controversy, especially given the information provided in the linked article. (3) The fact that others share an opinion that Ayers is "unrepentant" in an opinion or an analysis piece (or in multiple opinion pieces) doesn't allow wikipedia to state "unrepentant as a fact, (4) Yes, that was my comment — that blog piece was the basis for my conclusion that "unrepentant" was an inaccurate representation of Ayers's views. As I said above, "repentant" woulds also be inaccurate IMO. But, the lack of an unequivocal [if such a thing could exist] apology does not equal unrepentant. Especially if, as Ayers points out, any given actor could say that an apology is insufficient. (5) I think that the standard I'm advocating for should be applied to other similar articles. That is, the details should be in the linked articles, and the emotionally-charged POV terms should be eliminated from the articles, to the extent that they exist. I certainly haven't participated in the editing of those articles — I came to this article based on the Ayers comments, and my belief that the guilt by association storyline is making a mountain out of a molehill. I personally doubt that Obama shares much, if any, worldview with Ayers, and that making that assertion based on their "association' is unworthy of an encyclopedia. There's plenty of it on the sites like National Review; I believe that linking to sources like that are best done on the linked site, not the main one, given their status as opinion. Mfenger (talk) 06:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You cannot directly compare the Barack Obama biography to those other biographies from a content standpoint, because this particular BLP is written in summary style and the others are not (although a couple of them seem to be "half and half"). Because we have adopted SS here, we are able to go into much greater depth in the associated sub articles, resulting in more detail than you get with the other politicians mentioned. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Concerning the other candidates' articles, I'd argue that their articles're treating all the "controversy" material with undue weight. They should follow the FA-quality example of this article, not the other way around. Shem(talk) 17:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like Noroton has identified a number of examples of inappropriate POV/Soapboxing in articles about other people. Some of them really are quite egregious. He would do Wikipedia a great service to remove (or at least heavily trim) those digressions into third persons that partisans put into other politician articles. If Noroton does not get to it, I might make an effort myself to clean some of that up (obviously though, as we've seen here, cleaning up to encyclopedic standards can often meet great resistance from anti-Bio-Subject partisans). Unfortunately, I can't personally improve millions of articles at once, probably not even dozens where the subjects are living persons of high general interst. LotLE×talk 06:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, although it is important to bear in mind that the other articles are going to have more detail because they are not written in summary style. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where to put my comment on this ... I don't know Obama/Ayers well enough to comment on the choices here. But speaking for the Hillary article, I disagree that there is "POV/soapboxing" in it. The matters covered there are either legal or ethical investigations that she was the subject of, or issues that materially affected her presidential campaign. So for example if Obama had been the subject of a seven-year federal investigation into allegedly improperly firing federal employees and replacing them with cronies from Chicago (Travelgate), I think we'd all agree that it belonged in his main article. And as for matters like Bill messing up Hillary's campaign, the marriage to Bill has brought Hillary both very good things and very bad things, and is one of the major themes of the whole article. It belongs too. These parts of the Hillary article weren't put there by "partisans", but in fact accurately reflect the weight the topics are given in all of the mainstream, neutral biographies of Hillary. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
And as for McCain, the material on Charles Keating is there not because McCain was a friend of Keating or because Keating said outrageous or embarrassing things. It's there because McCain was the subject of a multi-year inquiry as to whether he had improperly intervened with federal regulators to block an investigation of Keating's savings and loan practices. In the context of the nationwide savings and loan crisis, Keating Five became the major scandal of McCain's career, and for a while threatened to end it early. It deserves the treatment it has there. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Loud footfalls in the hall. A foot-long hollow tube thrown through the transom lands on the floor with a thud. Attached with a cord, this crumpled communique: ANy ThiNg LeSs ThaN No 9 PluS 1/2 WiLl Be MeT WiTh THe PeoPleS' ReSiStaNcE----TEXTUALEVOLUTIONFRONT — Justmeherenow (   ) 14:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Where can I get some of that stuff you are smoking? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Lol — Justmeherenow (   ) 14:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If put into quotation marks and linked to a reliable and neutral source, indicating that they are the source's words and not Wikipedia's, the phrase "unrepentant terrorist" might be included. There are many, many politicians whose Wikipedia biographies contain details about other people. I have completed a extensive review of about 100 senators, governors and major party presidential candidates from the past 20 years, comparing not only Wikipedia biographies, but also Encyclopedia Britannica biographies. I can't find any that do not contain some details about other people. This seems to be standard encyclopedic practice. Some editors are trying to say, "The way that I have made this article is right. All of those other articles are wrong. You inclusionists need to go out there and do all the work, to bring all of those other articles up to my standards, because I'm right, and all of those other people are wrong. Even the editors of Encyclopedia Britannica. They're all wrong." Surely any reasonable person can see what they're doing. You may call them exclusionists or deletionists, or whatever you choose. I will call them Obama campaign volunteers. That is the most accurate descriptive term. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You are missing the point. What we cannot do is go into detail about the other people's lives, beyond what is necessary to reasonably identify them. That policy should apply to all BLPs. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
No, you are the one who is missing the point. We not only can, but must go into a little detail about other people since all other articles I've seen about prominent politicians do so. For the purposes of this article, "what is necessary to reasonably identify" Bill Ayers? Would Obama's friendship with a "university professor" be notable? No.
Is Obama's friendship with an "unrepentant terrorist" notable? Yes, because that's where the controversy resides. Stephanopoulos didn't ask Obama about any of his many other friendships with professors. He only asked about this one. What is it that makes Ayers stand out from all of Obama's other friends, or all of the other professors Obama has known? What is it that makes him notable? It is his status as a founder of the Weathermen. If not for that, Stephanopoulos never would have started a nationally televised debate with a question about Ayers. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Then let's designate Ayers as "Weathermen founder" instead of using language that you must admit is very charged. For people who know about the Weathermen, this will still carry the same weight, right? And for those who don't, we wouldn't want to deny them the chance to reader the Weathermen article and decide for themselves whether (that) the organization was these things. Slurms MacKenzie (talk) 18:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Moving from vote to integration

It seems we have achieved a broad consensus for a level of detail outlined in #3 of the listed choices. Here is a slightly modified version of that text (a link now includes an anchor), with the references now included:

Between 1993 and 2002, Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a philanthropic organization providing grants to Chicago's disadvantaged people and communities.[3] In 1999 he was joined on the board by Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996.[4] His association with the former radical activist would later draw media scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.

I would like to suggest that this paragraph be added to the "Early life and career" section, with all other references to Ayers (currently in the campaign section) removed. I think that the last sentence of the paragraph satisfies the "campaign-related issue" problem (especially since I have updated the link to point to the "media coverage" section of the campaign article). I have checked the two references against the proposed text and I can find no synthesis issues. - Scjessey (talk) 14:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

WRONG. Average of all choices is 4.433333 and if a few more choices on the high end of the scale come in, such as Fovean Author, it goes over 4.5 and gets rounded up to 5. For now, the consensus option is No. 4, not No. 3. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A simple list of agree/disagree comments seems appropriate:

Once this process is through, however its chips fall, participants should refrain further from edit warring on this point.
  • Oppose - there is no "association" shown between Ayers and Obama, and the fact of it being a minor controversy in the campaign is a weight problem here. What happened is not "media scrutiny" but attack politics. Additionally, the process has not had adequate participation and is flawed in a way that will ensure coatracking. "Chips fall where they may" is no way to write articles; any result reached this way does not seem binding and is unlikely to hold. Wikidemo (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You're disagreeing with No. 3's being the consensus? Or disagreeing with starting this up/down poll now, Wikidemo? :^) — Justmeherenow (   ) 16:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think any apparent agreement that might be reached among this group for one level of detail or another about these various campaign mini-scandals is a consensus to include the material, not the sort of consensus Wikipedia tries to implement. Moreover, the process of going down each of the controversies one by one in sequence to agree on how much emphasis to place is not a good approach, and would result in coatracking of a lot more controversy than would otherwise be in an article. Two more have been proposed so we're up to five. How many would we process in this way - ten? Twenty? For all the candidates? I know it's an attempt to restore order, but it's a symptom of the breakdown in good editing. A more sensible approach is to decide, globally, how to handle articles about politicians engaged in campaigns, and not allow case-by-case deviations. The outcome of that approach would be, and probably is already, that the thrusts and parries of political theater belong in campaign articles, whereas the bio articles are about the people themselves and their significant career moments and life events.Wikidemo (talk) 17:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you on this, but I was just getting fed up with all the edit warring. I felt like there was no choice if there was going to be any kind of article stability. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I've begun asking for wider comment from people who aren't habitues of this talk page. I've started on the talk pages of other candidate articles. I'm going to continue that process today and tomorrow. There are not nearly enough editors involved in this discussion and those that are have what I think is too parochial a viewpoint for an article that is this important to Wikipedia. Wikipedia should get this article right, and this article will only get more important over time. You can try to close the discussion down now while you have a small number giving you a temporary consensus, or you can wait another couple of days as others stream in. But this discussion is not over. It's barely started. Noroton (talk) 15:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That is entirely inappropriate. You are basically conducting a subtle form of canvassing to garner support for your more extreme views, using the inadequacies of other articles to justify yourself. We must move this process forward and go onto the next thing (Wright or Rezko). -- Scjessey (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
WP guidelines caution: "(...I)t is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, but messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process...."' I have wikifaith Noroton will canvass according to the spirit of this directive. — Justmeherenow (   ) 16:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Justme, but you don't need wikifaith. You can get wikiconfirmation by following the links on my contributions list and reading exactly what I wrote. I've been quite open about what I intended to do for some time. I even mentioned it on the WP:AN/I page in the section (now in archives) was started on the conflict with this article. I can't be sure that people who read the notices will agree with me, but at least they'll create a broader number of Wikipedians, and I think that's good for discussions about neutrality.Noroton (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You made so much of trying to be fair when you thought you'd win, Scjessey. Try to continue to be fair. Otherwise you look desperate. From WP:CANVASS#Friendly notices: Editors who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion, might also place such neutrally-worded notices on the talk pages of a WikiProject, the Village pump, or perhaps some other related talk page, while still only, or in lieu of, posting a limited number of friendly notices to individual editors. Noroton (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It's still premature to call #3 the "consensus option" at this point. Even though a majority of editors have at this point at least indicated that #3 is acceptable, a majority is not a consensus. It is also premature as far as timing goes. It has been less than 24 hours since real discussion started on this. Wikipedia doesn't react that fast in finding consensus. It should really take at least 5 days of discussion/waiting before we call something a consensus version. --Bobblehead (rants) 16:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose Scjessey's suggestion per my !vote of 4.5 before reading this. As a member of WP:08, I believe Noroton's wish for outside help is appropriate, and going to other articles is also appropriate; if the degree of canvassing was a bit questioned, let's not make every little thing an issue. My comments at Talk:Ron Paul#How much info on embarassing associates should be in a presidential candidate's biography?, written prior to knowing anything of Ayers besides the name, are cross-posted below. I am not watchlisting at this time. JJB 18:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Support brief explanation of up to a couple sentences, with link. It's case by case, but the general answer must be middle-of-the-road as you suggest, unless (for example) criminal charges link the two. Perhaps by this standard Lew Rockwell has too much coverage in this bio article. However this is not a matter of "equal treatment" per se because, say, does Mike Gravel really have any controversial associates? It's a matter of nominal "equal treatment for equal circumstances", and since no two circumstances are ultimately equal, proper weighting in each case. Some associates will need more space than others. Balance is determined by building local consensus and staking out NPOV and POV positions through a group redistricting procedure. JJB 17:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE the MOVE, May I remind Scjessey of a point you made: "Options 3 and up are the versions which fall into WP:COATRACK issues". Now comments to rehash the opposition/support of a "consensus" version appear to be conflated with the move. The only thing this exercise has done is show editors that if they want a different consensus they have to bring better proposals and better arguments to the table. Remember, consensus is not a vote. User:HailFire [5] was correct in objecting to this coatrack. Yes, Ayers worked on the board and also supported Obama. Sooooo? Obama has attracted many supporters over his career. Why should Ayers be treated any different? Arguably, this proposal to move is giving Ayers undue weight in Obama's life and it is this undue weight that is at the heart of the digression. #3 is already integrated into the article, for the debate is the only reason there are notable sources on the Ayers and Obama association. Modocc (talk) 18:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Alternate methodology

"Average of all choices is 4.433333 and if a few more choices on the high end of the scale come in, such as Fovean Author, it goes over 4.5 and gets rounded up to 5.
* "For now, the consensus option is No. 4, not No. 3."---- WORKERBEE74. Am pollinating (whoever-is-) "WorkerBee"'s suggestion — Justmeherenow (   ) 18:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

just a note here, I am not sure every one agree's the options are presented as a spectrum from 1 being pro-obama and 8 being anti... at least in between 1 and 5 (or so) you can argue the spectrum is improperly organized at some points, with 4 being more agressive than 5, etc 72.0.180.2 (talk) 23:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • AGREE — Justmeherenow (   ) 17:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Umm.. That isn't how consensus works folks. ;) --Bobblehead (rants) 17:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I can tell you right now that this methodology has absolutely no chance of producing a consensus. And as far as I cant tell, the user known as Fovean Author is only in existence for edit warring, and is currently blocked for just that. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Bobblehead, "how (Wikipedia) works" would always be whatever a consensus of editors agree to, not just whatever way you define it. And the arrangement of choices from among a spectrum naturally invites approximating a weight to each vote according to its position along it. — Justmeherenow (   ) 12:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The account User:WorkerBee74 is almost certainly a sock-puppet of User:Kossack4Truth, as is User:Fovean Author. WorkerBee74 started this new round of tirades (including references to the planned votes of K4T/Fovean) exactly when the first two accounts were blocked. Once broader action is taken against those sock-puppet accounts, we can strike out those three "votes", and I believe greater calm will be reached on this page. LotLE×talk 18:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Nice! Call everyone who disagrees with you a sockpuppet or puppet master. Way to AGF there. Kossack is right, it's a really ugly personal attack against all three of them. 68.29.208.59 (talk) 11:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC) (Posted from IP whose sole edit history is on this page)
  • Mostly agree per my !vote of 4.5 before reading this, but averaging is misleading because #7 should be #6 and #6 should be about #9.5 because of the undue word "terrorist". JJB 18:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
    Thanks for demonstrating an odd methodological issue. You get meaningful results by averaging ordinal numbers, that's like asking a sofa for a job reference. Wikidemo (talk) 18:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Bobblehead is right - this is not how consensus works. Tvoz/talk 19:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It isn't bad. If roughly half want No. 3 (or something close) and roughly half want No. 7 (or something close), then mathematically No. 5 turns out as a fair compromise. 68.29.208.59 (talk) 11:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
An aside re zero and infinity

Problem is----most BHO-bio Apologists' ballots really are mathematical zero! The result of which is identical with a statistical method that would require multiplication since zero is/always will be----zero. And its corrollary(sp) is that most BHO-bio Dissidents (seeking to investigate/smear BHO)'s ballots are really mathematical infinity! (∞).

  • Therefore it's only fair to throw out, for statistical purposes, any and all ballots from folks at those extremes, even if these together are in the vast majority. — Justmeherenow (   ) 18:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment Please identify where in WP:CONSENSUS that it says that the opinion of editors that are acting in good faith may be ignored? I've done a quick review and I can't find it, but perhaps my interpretation is incorrect. There is no way to statistically decide that a certain proposed wording is the "consensus version" based upon an arbitrary number that is only used to identify them. You might as well say that because some editors like apples and others bananas, the consensus fruit is a grape. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
With an ear for parodox, Bobblehead, you'd hear that the fact there's really no way to mathematically determine a consensus version of text was----EXACTLY----my very point.... :^) — Justmeherenow (   ) --->If you must argue with me, Bobblehead, please do so against the apple of whatever point I'm actually making and not against the orange of some point you're only claiming that I'm making. A compromise is a compromise and just 'cause a compromise is predetermined to be partially iNclusionistic doesn't negate the principle of eXclusionism as an ideal. Even though, in effect, by determing to compromise what's been done is to throw eXclusionist votes out of the hopper. As an anology, John drinks enough water to bloat his tummy contantly as a health regimen. Sally never drinks water as part of her stringent diet, partially as a part of her spiritual beliefs. Yet statisticians looking at average water consumption could conceivably decide their best methodology would be to throw out data from both John and Sally. Still, this apple of a statistical decision would in no wise be making the oranges suggestions that reasonably copious consuption of water isn't beneficial or that "oft-fasting" isn't an excellent spritual discipline. But since ya've got a history of sorta "only finding the ridiculous" in others' beliefs and opinions, Bobblehead, I'm not terribly confident you won't simply discount whatever point I'm actually trying to get at here and also offhandedly label it to the extreme of its having entirely no basis in fact or as being something of no possible utility. Oh well, the fun of dealing with data alongside "fellow near-Aspergers" (lol, figurately speaking) here at WPdia outweighs its downsides. :^) — Justmeherenow (   ) 20:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[P.S. For those interested, :^) one reason Einsteinian relativity and macro-cosmology can't yet entirely be unified with quantum physics and micro-cosmology (other than attempts via string theory) is because the former uses Cantorian mathematics (which includes in his set theory the "singularities" at mathematical points zero and infinity) while the latter doesn't.
[-Eg, in standard cosmologies,
--at the (Cantorian) point zero-age of the universe was the big bang
[--and at the (Cantorian) point infinity-age of the universe will be
[---either the big whimper (final acceleration into into infinite space) of a open ("infinite") universe ((which might be constantly creating new matter while old matter constantly disintigrates, rendering the universe finite in any "one moment of space-time" [should such a thing be thought to exist], but "infinite" en toto))
[---or, alternately, the big crunch (the entire universe's descelerated expansion to a point of its final collapse back into a single point of nothingness or zero space) of a closed (finite) universe.] — Justmeherenow (   ) 13:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Appeal for spirit of cooperation

After what seemed like a giant step forward in trying to find a consensus over the Bill Ayers inclusion, we seem to have stumbled. Possibly triggered by my attempt to move toward integrating the consensus text, there has been a breakdown of friendly, cooperative discussion. I had thought that most of the regular editors had weighed-in with their votes and opinions, so I began the next step of the process. We can certainly halt that "integration" and have further discussion, if necessary, but I would remind contributors that there are other issues waiting in the queue that must also be resolved. I urge editors to remain cool, avoid personal comments, and try to keep this process moving toward a much-needed conclusion. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, both sides have got to let go, please, for the sake of the articles stability, stop fighting over every little word. If we have/get a consensus further edit warring from EITHER side will be seen as disruptive and could result in a block. Both sides have got to let go and accept the result, please stop name calling and lets get back on track. Please think about the stability of the article and that golden star above politics. --— Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 17:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no need to rush. I agree with Bobblehead's comment just above (16:51, 3 June 2008) that a broader consensus is needed and a longer time is needed to get it. This has been argued within this little group for some time, and this little group can wait a bit longer. There is no need to wait for this discussion to end before starting on Wright and Rezko. In fact, I think that might be a good idea. Noroton (talk) 17:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and cutting of discussion too soon can hurt a spirit of cooperation more than extending discussion until a solid consensus arises. Noroton (talk) 17:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

May i just add, to those who are resisting consensus on both sides. We still have a few other issues to settle after this. Within the next few week there are going to be other things to argue about on the Obama page. I have already heard talk of removing the FA star because of upcoming stability concerns regarding potential presidency. The more things we are edit warring over the more likely it is that the article will be delisted. We really have to resolve these Ayers/wright issues NOW before the next set of issues arise up against John McCain. We need to get this sorted so that we can keep the article stable, please, if you care about the article, lets unit around a compromise before the star is removed. We need to be fully prepared for new issues. — Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 22:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Look, we've had two or three editors come here in the several hours since I put up the notices about this discussion that I always said I would put up. This sudden impatience itself is not a consensus-building move. Consensus building requires at least some patience. Evening has just started on the East coast, and over the next six hours or so, a lot of U.S. Wikipedians -- adult Wikipedians with day jobs and responsibilities, are going to see those notices. Some will be coming to the page. When those notices have not even been up a day it is passing strange to present them with a debate that has already shut down early for trivial reasons. Consensus is more important than article stability and even more important than maintaining FA stars. I don't see FA stars mentioned on that page that talks about Wikipedia pillars. You want stability? Form a solid consensus and it will be respected by anybody who doesn't want to be blocked. The way it looks so far, you'll probably get a consensus I don't like, but I'll say it again: wait and see. Give it a fair chance. Feel free to start discussions on Wright and Rezko. Noroton (talk) 22:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As long as it takes is fine with me, just that each side has to let it drop when a consensus is finally reached, sorry if you thought I was rushing the process. — Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 22:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to add that this POV push is most definitely not in the spirit of cooperation. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
And your justification for this whitewash is? Andyvphil (talk) 15:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
...is more than adequately explained in the edit summary. Stop adding non-neutral details about other people to this biography, especially when the editing community is in the middle of a consensus-building discussion on this very subject. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus-building discussion of the options

The !votes section above is a good early step in seeing where we are, but building a consensus is going to take a good number of editors discussing the reasoning behind their preferences and with many ultimately agreeing that their preferred option just doesn't have enough support to go into the article. I posted a notice about this discussion in enough places to get a larger number of Wikipedians involved and the response appears to give us a good indication about what editors believe so far. At this point, no matter if more editors join in, I don't expect the pattern of !votes to change without further discussion. The best way, initially, to reach consensus is to make sure we can't change minds first. We may actually be able to move some people toward our position and we may find we're convinced by other arguments (you can see that's happened even during the voting above as people have changed their minds). I'd like to reopen the discussion on some points and address some of the new points that have been made right here and do it with

  • (1) VERY CONCISE COMMENTS SO WE DON'T BORE ANYBODY TO DEATH
  • (2) No attacks or condemnations of the sincerity of anybody on Wikipedia. It isn't necessary.
  • (3) Factual evidence when called for, preferably with links.

Submitted: Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 1: Say nothing about Ayers

  • My comments in the subsection Fair treatment of Obama should be similar to how we treat other candidates show that this is not how Wikipedia treats other candidates, and I see nothing in WP policy or guidelines mandating that this is the course to take. Oh, and significant media coverage of this situation has made it a prominent part of the campaign, no matter how much certain editors may not like it. Character matters, associations matter, sometimes loose associations matter, this association matters. Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
    What on earth does Bill Ayers have to do with Obama's character that isn't a matter of guilt by association? Including negative information about someone because it deflates his "character" for is almost the definition of a coatrack. Wikidemo (talk) 18:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
    I see you completely accept the Obama campaign spin on this. "Guilt by association" has a specific meaning of being thought guilty of the same thing as your associate. No one has accused him of that, of course, but that doesn't end the questions. The concern about this association has been that if Obama doesn't think he should disassociate himself from someone like Ayers, then does he have much repugnance for the types of things Ayers did? Instead of denouncing Ayers, he's working with him and going to Ayers' home. Now whether or not you think that ultimately says something about Obama's worldview and sense of propriety, there can be no doubt that it raises the concerns of many people. Similar concerns have been raised (years ago) about Ayers and his wife by the alumni of the universities where they teach and by organizers of an educational conference who disinvited Ayers because of his past. Noroton (talk) 13:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I now think this is the only viable option. There are no reliable sources that can be cited to prove that Ayers planted any bombs, etc., and even if it were so, it was decades before Obama even met the man. Of the few occasions where Obama and Ayers have met, only one appears to be even vaguely notable. I conclude that there is no reason to mention Ayers in this biography at all, as it would be a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT, which in turn would be a violation of WP:BLP. That being said, it was notable that Obama was asked about Ayers in a TV debate, so it makes sense to mention it briefly in the campaign article; however, that is not a matter for this discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Scjessey isn't entitled to his own facts. By naming Obama the first Chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge the founders of that institution, prominenently including Ayers, placed the spending over five years of $100 million of politically useful grant money under his influence. Obama has denied talking to him "every week", at least nowadays, but no one who knows anything about the subject suggests that Obama has met Ayers on only "a few occasions". Andyvphil (talk) 12:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Press coverage disagrees with you. It extends from mid-February to Michael Kinsley's column in the May 29 Time magazine. Every major news organization in the country has run stories about this. How do you reconcile "no reliable sources that can be cited to prove that Ayers planted any bombs" with the best source possible: Bill Ayers himself. "I don't regret setting bombs", he said in the first line of a Sept. 11, 2001 New York Times story. (Is this behind their subscription wall? I can email the story.) Four days after the NYT story appeared, Ayers wrote a very critical blog post reprinting a letter he sent to the Times. In his criticism of the article he never said that he didn't tell the reporter "I don't regret setting bombs." You could look it up. BLP specifically allows negative information on public figures and it is extremely hard to argue WP:UNDUE when what's being added is a line or two. Noroton (talk) 01:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree with Norton that all candidates should be treated the same, but I would do that by removing all controversies from the articles about candidates unless the controversy itself was a significant issue in their life (e.g. Gary Hart's affair with Gennifer Flowers ending Hart's Presidential race), or unless the underlying event was significant to the candidate's life, e.g. being a recovering alcoholic, and further provided that the controversy or scandal is adequately covered as a separate article or as a mention in the article in the campaign(s) in which it became an issue. If those are the rules, and people understand the rules, they won't perceive bias and we won't get so much edit warring and coatracking over political attack pieces. Wikidemo (talk) 00:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I think we don't demand that every two-line statement in the biography of anyone be a "significant issue in their life." If you cut out anything that didn't meet that standard from this or any other biography, you'd be cutting most of the information out of each. Yes, we should cover only the important negative information in the bio article and cover it as it affects the biography. But the media coverage this matter has gotten is not tabloid coverage and it is important to allow readers a chance to get to the article on it from the bio page. We use media sources for over 100 other parts of this article, and those same news organizations consider this important enough to cover. It's worth a couple of lines in our bio coverage. Noroton (talk) 01:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I beg to differ. I believe we demand that of every article on every subject in Wikipedia, a concept generally described as relevance. Weight is also an issue. Tabloids, political opponents, and enemies try to paint every politician as undesirable based on stuff that sounds bad but is usually unfounded, out of context, out of proportion, irrelevant, or simply untrue. We really shouldn't take part in that game. If it's relevant only to the political process in which the politician is participating, but is not a real issue that is part of their real life, career, or policy, better leave that to the articles about the political process, i.e. the campaign articles. Wikidemo (talk) 01:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
        • We demand relevance of every whole article, and certainly every section should be a "significant issue in their life", but not every two lines. In my 01:04, 5 June post just above I link to a Google News search of Obama + Ayers. Not every result is about Bill Ayers and it's not all from reliable sources, but there are tons of non-tabloid, non-enemy sources there. This is very much a real issue. It isn't as big as other issues and doesn't deserve massive coverage in this article, but your description is an exaggeration, and I've given you the proof of that. Noroton (talk) 02:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
          • We have room for Obama to report that he fancies himself a pretty good chili chef. This article is packed with the kind of trivia that Obama's campaign manager loves to see. If there's room for that kind of fluffy trivia, we have room for a treatment of Ayers and his Weatherman past. We have a separate article for United States Senate career of Barack Obama, but we also have room for 980 words in the "U.S. Senate" section in this article. We have a separate article for Political positions of Barack Obama, but we also have room for 1042 words in the "Political positions" section in this article. Surely we have enough room for an equally detailed examination of the presidential campaign, including controversial figures such as Ayers, in this article. Kossack4Truth (talk) 02:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
            • I think Kossak's point puts this two-line addition into perspective. You don't start looking for places to cut prose with items that will not receive a link if you cut them, and you don't start preventing coverage of serious topics before you've pruned the trivia. WP:WEIGHT is not a credible objection. Noroton (talk) 03:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
              • We demand relevance of any fact in the encyclopedia. Extraneous details that cannot reasonably be tied to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject of the article simply don't belong. That's true of trivia too, but where there is less harm there is less urgency. Using the google search test there are 220,000 web pages that mention both Ayers and Obama - Nearly all are blogs, opinion pieces, and coverage of the controversy itself rather than the underlying events, then of course the usual duplicates and random web clutter. But almost certainly among those, there is enough reliably sourced information to show that it's notable for something. I haven't seen any sources that show that the information says anything about Obama himself, other than that people are trying to attack him for having interacted with Ayers. On the other hand there are 60 million web pages that mention Obama. So Ayers is mentioned in 1 out of 300. A news archive search is even more stark: 195,000 articles about Obama[6] of which 95 mention Ayers[7] , a ratio of 1 in 2,000. Given that most of those probably mention things other than Ayers, probably less than 1/5000 of all the discussion of Obama in news sources involve a discussion of Ayers. That's awfully slim. A whole section or even a couple sentences here gives it undue weight. Wikidemo (talk) 18:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a profound and fundamental difference between information about Obama and information about some other person. Of course "unrepentant terrorist bomber" or whatever is more important (albeit not true) than "good chili chef". But in this article, any information, no matter how trivial, about Obama is more relevant that information about somebody else. That said, I think the chili chef thing probably does descend too far towards trivia; we could certainly lose that and save a few words. However, those 1042 words on Obama's political positions are centrally relevant... all these radical anti-Obama partisans seem to utterly forget that this is a biography of its subject, not of "whoever else we can find not to like" LotLE×talk 03:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

If his political positions are that important (and they are), then issues related to his character are also very important for the same reason: One important aspect of any presidential candidate bio is going to be information that voters will be looking for. Now this is not a referendum on the ballot but a flesh-and-blood person. We are not electing a platform but a person with strengths and weaknesses. Who you associate with is one way for voters to judge your strengths and weaknesses. Candidates change positions, but character issues tend not to change as much. This is worth the two lines proposed. Noroton (talk) 03:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Everything said about Ayers here is about Obama in the sense that we simply describe what was problematic about someone associating with Ayers. It should be clear why we're actually mentioning Ayers here. Before this presidential campaign, organizers of an education conference disinvited Ayers and Northwestern U. alumni protested against Ayers' wife, Bernardette Dohrn, because they were unrepentant about their violent past. But Obama, like much of the Chicago establishment, did not. These details are not worth noting in this article, but they put Obama's association into perspective. Obama's decision to associate with Ayers is about Obama and is important to the voters relationship with him, just as the political positions are. Noroton (talk) 03:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Noroton. Information about Ayers and his relationship with Obama is highly relevant to Obama's notability and therefore belongs in the article for the simple reason that, as a person running for president, he has drawn significant media scrutiny as a result of it. Information about his own assessments of his chili cooking skills are much less relevant. --Floorsheim (talk) 06:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
"Information about Ayers and his relationship with Obama is highly relevant to Obama's notability"
That is just a ridiculous statement. Obama is most certainly not notable because of his relationship with Ayers!
"as a person running for president, he has drawn significant media scrutiny as a result of it."
That only reinforces the argument that this belongs only in the campaign article, and not in the biography. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Using words like "ridiculous" in reference to others' perspectives could be taken offensively and give rise to heatedness in discussions. Please avoid such language where unnecessary. My point is not that Obama's relationship to Ayers is his notability. Rather that it is highly relevant to his primary notability as person running for president seeing as he has drawn significant criticism because of it. And that for this reason, it should be included here. Also would like to point out that this article is not an ordinary biography and that some of the familiar intuitions and guidelines concerning BLP's may not apply here. --Floorsheim (talk) 19:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It is not relevant to his notability at all. Not a single person on Earth has heard of Obama because of his association with Ayers. The coverage of their association is notable, but not the fact of their association. That is why it is only suitable for the campaign article. And how is this "not an ordinary biography" exactly? -- Scjessey (talk) 19:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not an ordinary biography because it's about someone running for president. In the case of most biographies, the facts of interest are facts about the person, their life, their favorite color, etc. Here the facts of interest have a wider scope including but not limited to items which have verifiably influenced the public perception of Obama's electability (the presence of abundant media coverage qualifies).
You are accurate in saying no one knows about Obama because of his association with Ayers. This establishes the point we agree on which is that Obama's relationship to Ayers is not his notability. My point is entirely separate from this. My point is that the facts of the Ayers relationship should be included because they are relevant to Obama's notability as person running for president for the reason that they have led to significant criticism.
Check WP:ROC. You'll find the following general guideline for content inclusion on Wikipedia:
Factors that have influenced subject's form, role, history, public perception, or other noteworthy traits. The effects of these factors on the subject should be plainly apparent; if they are not, additional context is needed.
The facts of the Wright, Ayers, and Rezko issues clearly qualify.
--Floorsheim (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
To a very large extent, Wikipedia allows the mainstream news media (not the extremes represented by World Net Daily and Daily Kos), history book authors, and editors of conventional encyclopedias to decide what is notable. We just report what they're talking about. If they cover it, we cover it. The mainstream media have found the connection between Ayers and Obama to be notable. Ayers himself admits that he planted bombs. Case closed. WorkerBee74 (talk) 21:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but your conclusions are all wrong. Re-read this edit to see the degree of wrongness. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a good example of why this is not an ordinary biography. In the case of most persons, Scjessey's linked example provides a case in which media coverage is not an indicator of an issue's relevance to an article. In the case of a person running for president, though, the situation is quite different. The simple fact alone that an issue draws media coverage for such a person immediately brings the issue into relevance. It doesn't matter if we think the issue is silly and shouldn't have drawn media interest, as I in fact do for the most part in this case. What matters is that it has had an impact on that person's public perception, which is probably the most relevant thing of all to his or her primary notability as person running for president. --Floorsheim (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
But it would still only be notable with respect to the campaign, and so would belong in the campaign article. In terms of Obama's biography, it is not significant at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, you're ignoring the fact that if it wasn't for the presidential campaign, Obama would be no more notable than Jon Tester or any other freshman senator. Tester's biography is a few hundred words. Because it is the campaign that makes Obama more notable than any other freshman senator, it is the campaign that should receive the lion's share of coverage in this article. That means a fair representation of all significant POVs, including the POV that asks tough questions about Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko and Jeremiah Wright. This cannot be dismissed as a fringe POV. Kossack4Truth (talk) 00:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Kossack. The material belongs in both articles on the grounds that it is highly relevant to the notability of both subjects. It should receive proportionately more weight in the campaign article but should have a presence in both. If you didn't see my link above, Scjessey, please take a look at WP:ROC. --Floorsheim (talk) 03:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
imo...the Barack Obama article should include a sentence about controversial associates and acquaintances who have attracted media attention, hyperlinking to a section in the Barack Obama presidential campaign article which then summarizes each individual (Wright, Ayers and ? - it takes three to create a 'pattern' voters might buy into) with hyperlinks to the individual articles covering the controversial connections (or lack thereof). All these people are connected, as the political tactic being used is to imply ALL Obama's friends are wild-eyed leftist radicals, which of course isn't true (unless you consider Paul Volcker, Warren Buffett et al to be wild-eyed leftist radicals). Therefore, taking a longer view, the more specific material belongs in the campaign article. (The other main political tactic is a perceived lack of the specific types of experience, and that should also be summarized.) I would also point out we should try to avoid the echo chamber effect of quoting journalists quoting each other. If we did that, most of the off! ooh! factor (from the NYT interview, which is controversial in itself) about Ayers would evaporate. How many of the Wikipedians posting here have read the Bill Ayers election controversy article - or even knew it existed? You're arguing about how to summarize a 'connection' you're barely knowledgeable about (other than what has appeared in the echo chamber media), and that's a problem. (And no, I don't believe that article is 100% accurate at this point, but it's a work in progress.) Flatterworld (talk) 02:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey's original list of suggestions[8] was specifically for the Early Life section. It is not clear to me whether Noroton is now conflating mention in the Early Life section with coverage of the issue in the 2000 Presidential Campaign section. In the current state of RS I support no mention in the Early Life section, but think that the issue of what Obama's voluntary associations tell the electorate about him cannot properly be avoided in the 2008 Presidential Campaign section, and what makes Ayers controversial in that context must be clearly indicated in this article, not concealed behind weasels ("radical activist") and a blue link. Andyvphil (talk) 11:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I agree with this option - this is a "fellow traveller allegation" essentially. --BenBurch (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 2: Don't mention Ayers controversial past

Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. His association with Ayers would later draw media scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.
  • Nobody prefers this option as of this point. Only !Vote 3 gives it as a second or third choice.Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 3: Identifies Ayers as former radical activist

Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996 1995. His association with the former radical activist would later draw media scrutiny ... (((I just fixed the year. It was '95. Noroton (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC))))
  • My problem with this is that former radical activist is too vague. He appears to be a "radical" (vague term) still, and he is certainly an "activist" (another vague word) in some ways, hosting a fundraiser and working for educational reform. Furthermore, being a "former radical activist" is not why scrutiny was drawn to the association, and not why it was controversial. So the sentence can be misleading. The association is controversial because Ayers formerly engaged in violence (bombing of [largely] empty government buildings; organizing a riot in Chicago), and because his later statements, even to the present, have been taken as not being repentant about that. This is also my objection to some other options. Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ayers then-girlfriend died in the premature explosion of a nail bomb intended for a dance at Fort Dix. The custodians were just lucky not to be in the bathroom blown up at the Pentagon. Bernadine Dohrn pled guilty to two counts of aggravated assault for her contribution to identity theft used by the group of Weathermen/BLA armed robbers who ended up killing two policemen and a Brinks guard. Calling these two "former radical activists" doesn't quite convey the reality of the situation. Andyvphil (talk) 12:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The problem with Noroton's characterization is that there is zero WP:RS evidence that Ayers formerly engaged in violence or created any bombs. Noroton might speculate on what is "likely" (in his mind), given Ayers' associations 40 years ago, but that's only appropriate for Noroton's blog. No matter what anyone opines in this endless stuff, it will never be acceptable to invent that claim under WP:BLP. Whether Ayers' is "repentant" is always and completely subjective, that can also never go into an encyclopedia without violating WP:BLP and WP:OR. LotLE×talk 00:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
    • This claim of "zero reliable sourced evidence" is false.Bdell555 (talk) 19:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I don't need to speculate. Ayers admitted it. See 01:04 5 June post in Option 1. This removes the WP:OR objection and the NY Times isn't the only source. There is a mainstream of reporting from WP:RS sources backing this up. LotLE, you are again engaging in WP:NPA personal attacks and lack of civility with "Noroton's charactherization ... is ... an outright lie." Stop poisoning the discussion. You don't have to attack me to make your point, and you're making yourself look bad and me look good whenever you do it. Noroton (talk) 01:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
    • "Radical": what is radical? Language can be usefully vague. What is a "party girl"? Well, this could mean a fun woman; sometimes it's a non-judgemental way to describe a woman who is sluttly/promiscuous; and finally sometimes it's a subtle euphemism for ahh..."professional working girl." The same with radical: it could mean "sympathizer in a cause," it could mean "agitator toward proposed changes in society," but it could also mean "armed, active revolutionary." Marvelous! As for "former radical": if a woman involved in a scandal had been outed as a prostitute, it's polite to presume she's thereafter reformed. But "former party girl?" ("Former party girl Mata Hari was seen at a society party[!] yesterday at the Ritz ballroom.") Huh? Getting by degrees less and less encyclopedic here. Once somebody is "formerly," let's go aheads say what the thing was that the person but formerly was! WPdia isn't a Chicago paper trying to be polite with regard an area member of the establishment who was a former revolutionary. In any case, the ("Econ Con" public-policy quarterly) City Journal characterizes Ayers' current education advocacy as "radical" (see here...and this mag has thus editorialized about Ayers prior to the Ayers-Obama controversy in an even earlier piece I believe didn't even reference the Ayers-Obama controversy). While it would be original research to generalize (unsourced) that Ayers' current advocacy is radical, it would likewise be original research to claim that at some point of time Ayers' advocacies had became no longer merely "radical." — Justmeherenow (   ) 18:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Analogy. The second paragraph of lede at "Menachem Begin" reads, "Begin’s legacy is highly controversial and divisive. As the leader of Irgun, Begin played a central role in Jewish military resistance to the British Mandate of Palestine, but was strongly deplored and consequently sidelined by the mainstream Zionist leadership." As a hypothetical, say that before Begin redeemed his reputation in the Knesset, say there'd been a controversy about some prominent individual's association with Begin. To follow summary style, would it be more precise for WPdia to clue in readers about the nature of this controversy through saying it's due to Begin's having been a formerly strident nationalist or to state it was because he'd been a former leader of the military resistance group Irgun? — Justmeherenow (   ) 18:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • People can go to the Bill Ayers article to see for themselves what he is all about. Adjectives should be used in this kind of a reference only as much as is useful to identify and frame the reference, not to impart a POV in the article. "Former radical", "Former radical activist", "Former Weathermen leader", etc., all do that equally well. We still have a weight issue with this option. Tossing aside the outliers who believe that Ayers is a "mentor", "friend", or benefactor of Obama, the believable sources all say there is no association at all, just routine interaction of two people who move in the same circles. That would not be mentioned but for its being the subject of attack politics, so the mention rightfully belongs in an article about the campaign, not here. Wikidemo (talk) 00:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
    • You are going to "toss aside" Obama himself as an "outlier" since Obama has identified Ayers as a "friend"?Bdell555 (talk) 18:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    • An adequate description of a few words or a phrase is really not unreasonable, IMO, but that's the kind of thing we should be able to get to a consensus on. Noroton (talk) 01:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I have a problem with the actual facts in this. Fundraiser in 1996? I know about the meeting at the Ayers house in 1995, but all I can find about 1996 is http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24196396/ David Lytel, who worked in the White House for President Clinton from 1993 to 1996 as the White House “web master” and helped create the Whitehouse.gov web site, left in April 1996 and formed Democrats Online, one of the earliest political advocacy sites. During the 1996 Democratic convention in Chicago, Ayers and his wife, Weather Underground alumna Bernardine Dohrn, hosted a fundraiser at their Chicago home for Democrats Online. If that's what you're talking about, it wasn't a fundraiser for Barack Obama. Flatterworld (talk) 03:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The 1995 fundraiser is the one being referred to. It's a mistake. Noroton (talk) 05:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 4: Identifies Ayers as Weatherman founder

Weatherman founder Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. Obama's association with Ayers would later draw media scrutiny ...
  • It's too vague for the reasons I give in my comment in Option 3 with this timestamp. It's not that he founded an organization that makes him controversial, it's that he founded an organization involved in violence. We can't expect readers to know what "Weather Underground" was and we shouldn't make them follow the link just to find out. That's not serving the reader. Especially when we can fix the problem with the addition of a few words. In fact, as my preferred Option 7 shows, we don't need to even mention the name of the group, because the exact name is not necessary, and even the fact that he was a member of a particular group is not necessary. The quality of his past actions and his attitude toward those past actions is the issue, not the group. Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Same point of fact question (1996 fundraiser?!) I had with option 3. Beyond that, I would be surprised if anyone reading this article wouldn't have enough sense to click on the hyperlink if they didn't know anything about the group. Such as, if they've been marooned on a desert island for the past few months with no media feeds. ;-) Flatterworld (talk) 03:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • This is my preference. No value judgments, but the link is given so people can find out for themselves. Maybe we can't expect the reader to know what WU is, but if they see that it has made the guy controversial, one hopes they would have the intellectual curiosity to visit one link. And I would say the name is necessary, since those past actions manifest through the organization. If he were only a member, it would be one thing, but he was the founder, so it's reasonable to expect that the group's ideals follow his closely. Slurms MacKenzie (talk) 18:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 5: Mentions Dohrn, links both to Weather Underground, called "militant activist" group

Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. Obama's association with Ayers and his wife Bernardine Dohrn, who during the 1970s were co-founders of the Weather Underground (a militant activist organization), would later draw media scrutiny ...
  • Adding Dohrn is unnecessary detail. Weather Underground was more than "militant", it was extremely violent (although they didn't want to murder people -- we should give them that). I see no reason to substitute "violent" with "militant" -- it just does no good and it isn't disputable that they weren't violent. What is the reason for calling them "militant" rather than "violent"? The words "activist organization" is an improvement over Option 4. Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Dohrn absolutely has no place in any of this. If that was removed, this one would be within the bounds of WP:BLP. However, "violent" is definitely not permitted; no one was injured or killed in any Weatherman action (except themselves). It's a subjective argument whether destruction of property (even with bombs) is "violent," but "militant" is clearly accurate. However, the reason we have wikilinks is so that we don't have to rewrite articles inside parentheses, so this reduces to #4 if written in a professional style. LotLE×talk 00:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Dohrn co-hosted Ayers' fundraiser and reception in the mid-1990s that launched Obama's career. Dohrn worked at the same law firm as Michelle Obama. They crossed paths frequently. It is worth a mention, with Dohrn's name in the form of a blue link to her Wiki biography. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I like this one. Dohrn seems relevant to me; I'm comfortable with "militant"; and I feel "Weather Underground" needs to be explained. I might prefer to spell out just a bit more exactly what "militant" means but am willing to let it slide. As far as that goes, the bomb that exploded in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion was intended to hurt people, as evidenced both by the construction of the bomb (nail bomb) and by reports of former members. --Floorsheim (talk) 06:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The first sentence here has no verb (it has one but not one for the subject of the sentence.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Dohrn's even more irrelevant than Bill Ayers is. (Take that any way you life, but I mean in connection with Barack Obama.) Flatterworld (talk) 03:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 6: Calls Ayers unrepentant terrorist bomber, includes most Option 5 info

unrepentant terrorist bomber Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. Obama's association with Ayers and his wife Bernardine Dohrn, who during the 1970s were co-founders of the Weather Underground (a militant activist organization), would later draw media scrutiny ...
  • I just noticed that, like Option 2, there's no support for this in the !voting. My comment immediately below is probably unnecessary. Sorry. Noroton (talk) 03:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Calling Ayers a terrorist bomber may be technically correct: It seems reasonable to suppose that Weatheer Underground wanted to sow "terror" in the population by setting bombs. Objections: (1) The word terrorist tends to imply that someone wants to or is ready to kill people, and Weather Underground specifically wanted to avoid that. We do no harm by replacing terrorist with violent. (2) The word bomber is too constricting. One of the key points against the Weather Underground was that the group worked to set off a riot. People were injured in that riot. We don't need to add a lot more words here in order to make all these distinctions. Just drop the word bomber since either "terrorist" or "violent" gets the entire point across. I'm also not sure he's definitively admitted to setting bombs instead of just supporting it as a member of the group -- if we can't source it, it's a BLP violation. (3) Both words are more controversial than I think we can ever get consensus for, and violence is just as good. Not every option will have the full emotional affect of others, and that shouldn't matter -- the goal should be to provide the minimum amount of information necessary for an adequate understanding of why this association was controversial. For my objection to unrepentant see my comment at Option 7, same time stamp as this one. Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ayers book isn't online, but Factcheck.org writes, "[The] bombings in which Ayers said he participated as part of the Weather Underground [were] at the New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, in a men's lavatory in the Capitol building in 1971 and in a women's restroom in the Pentagon in 1972." [9] Saying he was a bomber is uncontroversial outside of the la-la land that is this talk page. Andyvphil (talk) 13:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 7: Calls Weather violent, says Ayers didn't renounce violent actions

Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. Obama's association with Ayers, a well-known former member of the violent radical group Weather Underground who had not renounced the group's violent actions, would later draw media scrutiny
  • well known because Ayers was famous for his involvement with the WU and Obama could not have been ignorant about that. violent radical group because "violent" was one of two major points that makes this association controversial. had not renounced the group's violent actions This avoids the word "unrepentant" that Mfenger objects to. It is a simple, provable, objective fact, which can be sourced, that he has not renounced the violent actions. It can be proven to be false if someone can find a clear, public renunciation. Together with "violence" it is one of the two top things that makes Bill Ayers controversial today. Other violent radicals have renounced their violence and even entered Congress, and people work with them without controversy. A public figure who works with someone who has not renounced past violence can expect that association to be controversial. Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, sourcing "had not renounced the group's violent actions" is going to be problematic — how does one prove a negative like that? It's a subjectivve, POV statement of opinion by analysts if you source it to the places that were advocated earlier (e.g., NYT or Slate opinion pieces). I also wonder about your earlier statements in this section that readers won't know what the "Weather Underground" was (and won't click on a link to learn), and won't wonder what the "controversy" is and click on a provided link to further discussion. If readers are the way you say they are, won't they just buy "failed to renounce" without looking into the further discussion that I assume will discuss Ayers's writings on the subject with the nuance they deserve? For these reasons, I think the third option is stil the best. Anyone interested in the controversy will click on the link. Mfenger (talk) 21:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The real problem is that readers may misconstrue what was controversial based on the description of the controversy. That can happen whenever a controversy isn't described well enough. One "proves a negative like that" about not renouncing violence by referring to news articles that say he didn't renounce it. I provided one from the NY Times before and there are others. We commonly give negative information about people in Wikipedia, especially with public figures, when we have reliable sources saying precisely the same thing. I see no controversy out there at all that he is unrepentant. If there is, the phrase could be modified. It has been reported that he was directly asked whether he renounced violence and the response he gave was quoted, and it clearly was not renouncing the group's violent actions. Multiple news accounts accepting that he is unrepentant are not all due to lazy reporting. I get the impression that no matter what evidence is provided, you won't be satisfied, but feel free to tell me how I'm wrong and what evidence would work for you. If a simple phrase describing the solid facts that make the group and Ayers controversial can be added to the article, why object to the addition? Noroton (talk) 22:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yet again, this "unrepentant" is complete crap, and cannot go in an encyclopedia.. period. Ever! Moreover, Ayers' has made many statements (reproduced on this talk pages) expressing what he was, and wasn't, sorry about. Noroton's definition of "unrepentant" means "hasn't apologized enough for me." Unless Noroton is Ayers' shrink, or priest, or rabbi, or maybe St.Peter judging at the Pearly Gates, he has no idea whatsoever what Ayers' may or may not have "repented." LotLE×talk 00:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

  • The problem with my organizing these discussions this way is that the same points keep coming up. Lesson learned. As I mentioned elsewhere, I refuted this point about "unrepentant" at my 01:04 5 June post in Option 1. Reliable sources say he's unrepentant and he hasn't said different. LotLE makes the additional point about Ayers' odd statements expressing regret about various things. It seems to me that Ayers could very easily put the whole matter to rest with a single, simple statement that clearly says he's sorry about promoting and committing violence. That's extremely easy to do, and if he does it, it should be enough for us. Instead, he toys with it, plays around with it. I'm willing to accept a clear statement from him as proof of repentance about violence if someone can provide it. Fair enough? Noroton (talk) 01:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC) Oh, and the language here isn't "unrepentant", it's had not renounced the group's violent actions. An objective fact. Noroton (talk) 01:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Ayers' own words are easily understood. He doesn't regret setting off bombs. He wishes that he and his Weathermen friends could have set off even more bombs. Don't pretend that "unrepentant" would be inaccurate in away way, or any sort of a stretch. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
More proof that he has not indicated repentance From an interview with Ayers and Dohrn on a PBS website:
In the film, Mark Rudd talks about his qualms and his very divided feelings about what he did. You don’t make any equivalent statement, and I wondered why not… How do you feel about what you did? Would you do it again under similar circumstances?
Bill Ayers: I’ve thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, it’s impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful?… I don’t think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable. You could look it up. In fact, I think it's fair to call him "unrepentant" as backed up by this reliable source. Noroton (talk) 00:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


Weather Underground was violent against people, not just property

Mark Rudd, a leader in Weather Underground (called Weathermen when he was a leader), confirms that the group planned to kill innocent people:

On the morning of March 6, 1970, three of my comrades were building pipe bombs packed with dynamite and nails, destined for a dance of non-commissioned officers and their dates at Fort Dix, N.J., that night. You could look it up on his website.

So, just to clearly sum it up: We have multiple reliable sources that Bill Ayers is an (1) unrepentant (2) terrorist bomber. Capisce? I'm willing to support another option for the sake of consensus, but not because this option doesn't have solid reliable sources to back it up. Noroton (talk) 01:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, you can add all the evidence you like - pages and pages of it - and it won't make any difference to the central issue, which is that none of it is relevant to this BLP, and would be a violation of Wikipedia policy. You must write about the subject, not the subject's acquaintance. You have to prove that Obama himself was an "unrepentant terrorist bomber" to put those words, or words like it into this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this statement from earlier up on this page: I urge editors to remain cool, avoid personal comments, and try to keep this process moving toward a much-needed conclusion. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Sjessey, the veracity of various statements was questioned, I proved their veracity. It shows why Ayers is controversial and shows that solid descriptions of Ayers can be sourced. Just because you have other objections (which have already been answered), you don't need to insert them here. It's not really helpful in keeping the process moving forward. Noroton (talk) 03:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to be clear, you can add all the evidence you like - pages and pages of it - and it won't make any difference to the central issue, which is ... That a clique of pro-Obama partisans are whitewashing the article, and won't let the facts, or Wikipedia policies such as WP:NPOV, get in their way. Kossack4Truth (talk) 02:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
When there are too many people who oppose them, they point fingers and scream, "Sockpuppet!" Here we see the first failed attempt. The RFCU result was "Unrelated." Here we see the second attempt, unconsciously evoking Josef Goebbels' old maxim that if you repeat a lie often enough, and loudly enough, and with enough arrogance and brass, some people will start to believe it. Kossack4Truth (talk) 02:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Kossack, while I understand your frustration, I'd like to suggest keeping WP:FAITH in mind, if also WP:BEANS. Scjessey and company have made their reasons for their position clear: the facts we feel are relevant don't belong because they aren't directly about Barack Obama. It is not our place to insert surreptitious motivations where those that they lay claim to suffice.
In response to Scjessey, here is a direct quote from WP:BLP:
If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.
The Ayers stuff is certainly notable and well-documented. As for relvancy, here is what Wikipedia:Relevance of content says about what belongs in an article:
Factors that have influenced subject's form, role, history, public perception, or other noteworthy traits. The effects of these factors on the subject should be plainly apparent; if they are not, additional context is needed.
The Ayers stuff has influenced Obama's public perception as evidenced by its level of presence in the media and thus is relevant.
So according to the very policy you yourself keep referring to, the Ayers stuff should go in. Same for Wright and Rezko. I don't see how you or anyone else can continue to claim otherwise.
--Floorsheim (talk) 04:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Floorsheim's arguments, I will direct everyone's attention to this portion of the Wikipedia essay cited by Floorsheim: Factors that have influenced subject's form, role, history, public perception, or other noteworthy traits. The effects of these factors on the subject should be plainly apparent; if they are not, additional context is needed. Ayers belongs in the article, and additional context is needed. Kossack4Truth (talk) 11:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, point of fact. Some members of the Weatherman group were involved in making that bomb at Greenwich Village. Bill Ayers was not one of them. He wasn't even there. In his memoir, he writes that perhaps his girlfriend Diana was trying to stop the bomb-makers as he could not imagine her being involved in trying to kill people. (That should tell you something right there.) After the explosion, Weatherman became the Weather Underground, and this new group returned to renouncing any violence against people. After Ayers and Dohrn were purged from Weather Underground, some members went off into various splinter groups which were indeed more violent/militant (such as the Black Liberation Army-run Brinks robbery in which people were killed). Again, that was NOT Ayers. The problem here is that the above statement conflates Ayers and WU as if they were the same. I don't believe all Republicans agree with George Bush 100%, and I'd feel pretty silly stating that as a fact in an encyclopedia article. So Noroton, it is not true that Ayers is an unrepentant terrorist bomber trying to kill people. You can quote the NYT all you want, but they printed 'facts' by Judith Miller and Jason Blair as well. (The paper is, however, excellent for wrapping fish.) Flatterworld (talk) 03:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It is a bit complicated, but it is provable with a number of Ayers quotes in various spots that he has not indicated he is repentant, and there is no clear statement from him that he's repentant that anyone has found anywhere. The best treatment for this is at his article and the Bill Ayers election controversy article, where it can be adequately described. The PBS show interview I found online and quoted at Bill Ayers is clear on this. And I find the fact that he is unrepentant is brought up again and again by critics. Also, critics say Obama's connection to Ayers, largely for this reason, demonstrates a lack of judgment on Obama's part. Anything we say about Ayers in this Obama article is meant as a comment on Obama. Flatterworld, you're concentrating on secondary arguments when my side has nailed down the central argument: Ayers won't say he's sorry that the group terrorized, and Obama doesn't demand an apology before associating with him. That's the nub of it, it's proven, it falls within acceptable WP:BLP regs, it's a widely reported-on and commented-on election issue, we serve our readers best by mentioning it here and linking. The desire not to do so is counter to the best interests of our readers and of the encyclopedia. Noroton (talk) 05:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
But do you see, Norton, how you just referred to it as an "election issue"? Ayers is of virtually no relevance to Obama's biography outside of the minor primary election mini-controversy created by Stephanopoulos' debate question, which is why the material currently exists at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. A relatively minor election-only issue doesn't warrant inclusion in the main biography. Shem(talk) 07:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Shem, your point is wrong because so many of your assumptions are wrong. First of all, it is demonstrably false that a single debate question is the overwhelming reason for the importance of this. It had been reported before and was following the same trajectory as the Jeremiah Wright and Father Flegler business. We don't have election issues in the article about a person at the center of what is right now the most important election in the world? We have a whole section on the election and another long one on his political positions. This election issue is about an aspect of his life history and this is the article about his life. Ayers' "relevance to Obama's biography" must be seen in the relevance of Obama's biography to us in that the aspects of Obama's life that might affect US are more important than the rest. You resolutely refuse to acknowledge the inherent importance of the public interest. You won't even let the reader decide what to make of Ayers, you hide Ayers despite the fact that this aspect of Obama's past has received widespread coverage, that it is the type of thing that any voter could be expected to find of importance, and despite the fact that it only takes up two lines in this long (properly long) article. Assume the reader is an adult. You fight tooth and nail over these two lines and meanwhile we serve up this to the readers: Replying to an Associated Press survey of 2008 presidential candidates' personal tastes, he specified "architect" as his alternate career choice and "chili" as his favorite meal to cook.[165] Asked to name a "hidden talent," Obama answered: "I'm a pretty good poker player."[166]. Source after source after source believes this is not going away now that the primaries are over. Everybody believes that independent groups are going to bring this up during the general election, so you cannot assume that the matter is over. Coverage from February to now indicates a continuing interest. Rather than have a pointer within the prose of the article to help people understand the matter in other Wikipedia articles subject to NPOV, you would leave consideration of this to partisan 527 groups and blogs. Noroton (talk) 13:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Option 8: Rewrite, lengthen, ID critic, describe Ayers, associations, Obama's statements

In campaign section, Commentators such as X criticized Obama for his ties with Bill Ayers... then a description of Ayers, then a description of the associations, then a description of Obama's statements on the matter.
  • This is the only option calling for much more detail. Its strength is that it's easier to treat the matter with NPOV, but we can do that anyway. If this matter becomes much more controversial (I actually expect it will), then this is a good option and it may be what we'll be forced to do by events, but it doesn't rate that kind of treatment now. The links will do most of the work of providing detail. I think it matters what news outlets you watch or read. Fox News and various web sites and publications on the right have made more out of the Ayers controversy than some other TV news orgs and magazines. I think people involved in this discussion are assuming that their news outlets are reflecting news coverage in general. If this controversy gets the attention that the Jeremiah Wright controversy has received, then this would be a good option. Otherwise, the idea of reporting on others opinions is a good strategy, endorsed by WP:NPOV. Noroton (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I support either No. 7 or No. 8. Now that we have discussed it, I think I like No. 8 the best. The must be done with absolute neutrality, but that means allowing Obama's critics to be heard in this article. Then let Obama defend himself as well. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
My problem with the alternatives (1-7) is that it makes the (I think unwarranted, other people think very warranted) assumption that the coincidence of Ayers and Obama being on the board together amounts to anything in and of itself - that is, simply reporting the fact as notable is POV. That makes it very tricky business - I, at least, would find it to be a bit POV. Which is why I think framing it in terms of a controversy - or even just in terms of the ABC debate - is so much more preferable. Because it's very contested whether Ayers matters to Obama as such. Whereas nobody, I think, would deny that the Ayers controversy is notable. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the fact that the connection is still appearing in news articles (all right, a news analysis article), as well as commentary, something which started in earnest in mid-February and has continued to the present, shows that a couple of lines in the article on the association is worthwhile. We cover the subject in detail at Bill Ayers election controversy and we'll link to that with whatever we add. I think that at the Barack Obama presidential campaign article it deserves the treatment you suggest. Giving it extended treatment suggests in itself that the connection is more important than it appears to be. Also, I don't think a consensus is going to form around this option. Noroton (talk) 22:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, the 2-7 versions are all noting both the membership on the board and the fact that Ayers hosted a meeting for Obama. The meeting was actually Obama's political introduction to Democrats in his neighborhood -- his predecessor as state senator introduced him for the first time to other Democrats in the district at this meeting and said she endorsed him, giving it some importance in Obama's career. It's actually more than just a coincidence that the two were on the same board -- they both traveled in something of the same circles. The board governed the group that previously gave a community organization the money which first brought Obama to Chicago, and meetings of the board (which wasn't very large, less than 10 members) commonly took up an entire afternoon four times a year, and they were both on the board during a three-year span. Reliable sources also say dinner parties were involved. Obama also gave a favorable review to an Ayers book in the Chicago Tribune. This is what we know so far. In contrast, Ayers was controversial enough that an educational group disinvited him to a conference, and his wife, Dohrn, controversial enough that it caused a move by Northwestern U. alumni to kick her out of that institution in 2001. Bill Ayers has his own "Times Topics" page at the New York Times website (I hope this is not behind a subscription wall.) None of this shows the two were best buddies or anything, just that Obama associated with Ayers despite Ayers' past, which has always been well-known, while others were outraged or uncomfortable with any kind of association. Worth a couple lines here, I think, no more, no less. Just enough so that people understand it and can link to the article about it. Noroton (talk) 23:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Although I disagree (I think it amounts to no more than two people in the same political establishment in the same city), I think that's a respectable position well stated and not for POV purposes. Thanks for the cogent comment. Wikidemo (talk) 23:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Can we reach a reasonable compromise here?

I believe we can reach a reasonable compromise. I propose that either No. 4, No. 5, or a combination thereof would be the reasonable compromise that would resolve this matter. Nobody will think it is wonderful, but a consensus will find it acceptable. Please consider this with an open mind, and state below whether you support or oppose this proposal. If the proposal gains acceptance, then we can hammer out the details of the compromise. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

  • SUPPORT. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. WorkerBee74 (talk) 15:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • STRONGLY OPPOSE Scjessey (talk) 15:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Sorry, no. The burden is on you to demonstrate why Ayers is notable enough to be in Obama's biography, which (unlike others have successfully done with Wright and Rezko) you have have failed to do. The Stephanopoulos/Ayers debate question can remain where it belongs -- in the campaign article with other "mini-controversies" -- until you've done otherwise. You seem to enjoy polling as an implement for pushing your POV, but polling is not a substitute for discussion, especially when the options to vote for appear to be constructing a false dichotomy. Shem(talk) 16:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Very mildly oppose, with a suggestion that we instead include Option 3 This is, of course, just a way of seeing where we are right now in terms of support, after discussing this more. And we're going to discuss this more still before we get there, so calm down, everybody. It seems to me that there was plenty of support for Option 3 and that ought to be in the mix. We should then discuss those three options. The fact is, that discussion has been fruitful in showing there just isn't enough support for some options and some options are simply not credible. I don't think the following is disputable, but my mind is open, and I may be wrong:
    • Option 1 — First, the option is at one extreme of the scale and most editors do not support it because they want something in the article. It is not credible to say that we can form a consensus around this option. It might have been credible if a good enough argument for it had been put up, but instead the arguments for it are discredited by the facts. I find Shem's comment just above shows an attitude that does not contribute to consensus and his statement that the burden is on the rest of us to demonstrate why Ayers is notable enough is contrary to what has already been shown in the previous section and earlier: Similar references to other people have appeared in presidential biography articles ("More candidates for the fat farm" above), other candidates have similar passages (in my section between this and the vote list on Ayers), and in the discussion on Option 1 above we've decisively met all the arguments in favor of it with better arguments based on facts, logic and policy & guidelines. Face it, people: There ain't no way that option is going to get consensus. You don't have the numbers of editors in support and you don't have a hope of getting them because you don't have the arguments to do it. You can try to obstruct a consensus, in which case the numbers indicate you can be rolled over, or you can work to support your second or third choices, for which you still have a chance. It's your decision on whether to be reasonable or not. I have to drop my preferred Option 7, even though it got some support, because I don't believe it will pass. If I can play like a grown-up, you can too.
    • Option 2 — no support, obviously off the table, unless the Option 1 supporters want to try to push it now as a second-best option, but it likely won't get more support from other editors. No one supported it before.
    • Option 3 — This option had some support and it is a second or third choice of many who had Option 1 as a first choice. I think it would be premature to drop it now, although I doubt it would get consensus. We need to consider it further.
    • Option 4 — still on the table
    • Option 5 — still on the table
    • Option 6 — basically the same situation as Option 2. I don't think it can get support. I think there's consensus against it.
    • Option 7 — I got some support for this and I have excellent reasons for it which no opponents have been able to show is wrong, but it nevertheless doesn't seem to be a likely consensus option. As a grown-up, I'm willing to drop it.
    • Option 8 — Received little support. There seems to be a consensus that a short version is best. (To me, this is a good description of what an Ayers passage on the campaign article should look like)
Now, let's see if we can agree to discuss only Options 3, 4 and 5 — not only in terms of which is the most reasonable but in terms of which is most likely to get consensus. I'm willing to wait a little longer if a good number of people think more discussion will convince people, but there hasn't been evidence of that so far. Let's actually try to be successful in reaching consensus after having put so much work into this. Anyone who actually wants a consensus must be willing to accept that most of us are NOT going to get the option we most prefer. Grown-ups, please. Is there support for adding Option 3 to the mix and looking firther at these three options? Noroton (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
No. You cannot use what goes on in other articles as your justification for allowing BLP violations. We should follow Wikipedia's policy over Wikipedia's history. Since this is a BLP, Shem is quite correct in saying that the onus is on the "inclusionist" to prove that a detail is both notable and relevant before adding it to the article. None of these "sensational" details about Ayers are related to Obama, so notability and relevancy have not been proved. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I have to go for now. Life intrudes. If you want to defend the Alamo at WP:BLP when the time comes, be my guest. Really, when you're at the short end of the consensus, what can you do? Either withdraw or do what I did: accept reality. We can discuss Option 1 further above (I think that's a good idea), but I haven't seen too many new ideas, just old ones coming up yet again. I've been reading some of the things at Mark Rudd's website and one of the suggestions he has for radical activists is to accept reality. He also admits the people killed in the Greenwich Village explosion were building nail bombs to set off at a dance at Fort Dix. Noroton (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
So? Did Obama help build any of the bombs? Is Obama a member of the Weather Underground? There is NO PLACE on Wikipedia for guilt-by-association. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
No. Option #1 is the most appropriate, and should never be taken off the table. #4 and particularly #5 have some serious problems. Per policy the burden falls on anyone who wants to add material to demonstrate that it is appropriate; hence, not including it always an option as long as there is legitimate disagreement. I don't see a consensus for adding the material at all. The notion of dividing a controversial issue into eight different degrees of coverage and asking people to choose one is a nice try and perhaps generates some interesting discussion but it's fatally flawed as a tool for creating or assessing consensus, particularly when the best option arguably is no coverage at all. Wikidemo (talk) 17:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Options No. 1 and No. 3 are not a compromise. They are what the Obama campaign volunteers have announced that they want. I want No. 7 or No. 8 but, like Noroton, I am going to act like an adult and meet them halfway. No. 4 and No. 5 do not violate BLP because Ayers admits that he placed bombs on US soil, and because Stephanopoulos asked the question at the beginning of a televised debate, and because many other journalists are asking the same question on the pages of their papers and websites. If you think these options violate BLP, file your complaint at the BLP Noticeboard. But it isn't going to fly. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
No, your controversial insertions aren't going to fly. This entire exercise is moot given this poll's "options" create a completely false dichotomy. Ayers' very inclusion invokes a litany of serious policy issues: WP:LIVING, WP:NPOV (specifically WP:UNDUE), and WP:RECENTISM (the last of which isn't a policy, but whose words are certainly germane). I'm not sure who you are, "WorkerBee," but you're clearly an alternate account of an experienced editor who should know better. Shem(talk) 18:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Specifically: Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Kossack4Truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.6.152 (talk) 19:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
(after an edit conflict) - That is a ridiculous argument. It is akin to this:
  1. Not saying anything.
  2. John Doe bought a pair of shoes from some random guy.
  3. John Doe bought a pair of shoes from some random guy who, it turns out, murdered his wife by chopping her into little pieces and putting the bits in old jam jars. The story got loads of media coverage because of the gruesome details; therefore, the character of John Doe must be judged on who he buys his shoes from.
This may seem like an extreme example, but it perfectly illustrates why "loads of media coverage" is not a good enough excuse to put facts about other people in a BLP, however thoroughly referenced. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, I would like to point out that we are not trying to reach a compromise here. We are trying to reach a consensus, which is significantly different. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, Scjessey. In the midst of Kossak4truth's barrage of polls, it seems people've become so caught up in the exercise that they've forgotten how things actually work here. A controversial POV/BLP insertion is something which must be justified by the pusher, not voted on. Shem(talk) 18:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Suggestion 1: Single purpose accounts should not be counted toward consensus in any decision we make. I don't know if we can enforce that, or how, but I don't want this decided because one or more SPAs tipped the scale. Same goes for no-name IP addresses. Nothing stops them from participating in discussions, of course. Noroton (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Suggestion 2: Where is the evidence Option 1 will ever get consensus? Look at the long vote we took -- the one that Scjessey set up. The initial consensus is against you. A vast majority of other editors thought that including the information in some form was the better course, and they evidently thought it was within policy to do so. There's nothing wrong with a policy argument, but you have to make the argument and make it stick with other editors. I see assertions that it is the only acceptable option because it is the only one that follows WP policy, but I don't see proof of that anywhere -- neither here or in the section just above for comments on Option 1. If a consensus still goes against you, we'll add new language to the page the way the consensus wants it and you can take it to BLP noticeboard as a violation, and the matter can be decided there. I believe that's the way the system works (maybe you could go to WP:BLP noticeboard now and make the argument -- be my guest). Now, we're never going to get to consensus without taking some options off the table. If you want to try to persuade more editors to support Option 1, you're free to do so, and if you feel that strongly about it, we can keep it on the table. There doesn't seem to be support for keeping Option 3 on the table, so let's not. Let's further discuss Options 1, 4 and 5. Noroton (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC) ADDED COMMENT: Actually, as I look things over, Option 3 had initially 7 editors who said it was their first choice. I think we need to leave it on the table as well, so my suggestion is that we further consider Options 1, 3, 4 and 5. Noroton (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, the whole point of Wikipedia is that everyone gets a say, even if they are just "no-name IP addresses". You may not like that arrangement, but it is precisely why Wikipedia is the success it is. Secondly, since the "misdeeds" of Ayers are not related to Obama in any way, there are absolutely no criteria for inclusion that the policies associated with a BLP will allow. Any attempt to include such information would be a direct violation of several Wikipedia policies. For your convenience, I will again quote from WP:BLP:
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. (my own emphasis)
Any attempt at an Ayers-related inclusion should be mercilessly reverted by any Wikipedian who should have the misfortune of stumbling across such a blatant piece of guilt-by-association POV pushing. There can be no consensus for violations of Wikipedia policy. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Why do I have to keep repeating myself? We have to describe what is controversial about the association between Ayers and Obama in order to explain to readers why it's controversial. If you complain to WP:BLP noticeboard that we describe Ayers in a phrase or two, you're going to get laughed at. If you don't get BLP noticeboard approval and revert in opposition to consensus, administrators are going to demonstrate to you the hard way how consensus is used to interpret policy in individual instances. It isn't just consensus here but standard practice in Wikipedia to explain the significance of other people in the life of the subject of a BLP and biographies of dead people. You have no excuse for not knowing this because I demonstrated it earlier on this page ("More candidates for the fat farm" and "Fair treatment of Obama should be similar to how we treat other candidates"). It would be passing strange if, with consensus, policy, practice and simple logic against you that you would prevail in edit warring under a false BLP banner, but you're welcome to experiment with that if we get consensus to add something. The argument I've just given you is the one I'll bring to administrators, and we'll just see what they think. If you all want to welcome with open arms the SPAs and IP names that have already participated in the !vote above, I won't object.Noroton (talk) 00:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, Scjessey. There's no "compromise" when it comes to violating WP:BLP, nor will a small flock of single-purpose POV-pushing accounts change such. Shem(talk) 23:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Scjessey and Shem, you two have convinced me: I will reconcile myself to accepting the support of WorkerBee74 (fifth !vote in the long list) and 72.0.180.2 (13th vote in the long list) and 68.29.208.59 (21st vote). In order, they favor options 7, 5 and 8, and I think they're likely to support some compromise similar to their preferences. Thank you for your strong support for these editors. I promise to welcome them to my side with open arms. Noroton (talk) 00:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Option #1 does not need consensus because it is the default. Problematic material stays out unless there is a consensus for inclusion. Wikidemo (talk) 23:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If we get consensus, you'll need consensus or BLP Noticeboard approval to change it. No one is talking about adding anything without consensus. Consensus is not unanimity. Noroton (talk) 00:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. It would take a consensus to include a controversial addition. Consensus does not override policy. But consensus on how to interpret policy is valid. Nevertheless, most popular among 8 options does not equal consensus. However, we may want to simply reach an agreement or truce to avoid edit warring...plus, as long as the material is kept fairly factual and netural this whole issue is a lot less important than the amount of verbiage on this page would suggest.Wikidemo (talk) 00:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Have we been miscommunicating? No one wants to impose any solution without getting a full consensus behind it. This is going to call for us to call the question and ask everybody if they support or oppose a particular proposal.Noroton (talk) 01:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me, but if Stephen Hawking opened a Wikipedia account and devoted all of his edits to the subject of theoretical physics, would his opinion be dismissed because he's a single purpose account? If he didn't bother to open an account first, would his opinion be dismissed because he's just an IP address? Everybody's opinion is equal here. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've conceded the point; please, let's drop it. Noroton (talk) 01:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
After finding the Media Matters for America site I expanded the information[10] using some sources they pointed out, which make it pretty clear to me that the "$300,000 discount" claim is a blatant falsehood. I think that this vote is a distraction from the fact that people should discuss what Obama did or what people said about Obama, in which Rezko has some part, and that the information should be true and well sourced! Wnt (talk) 19:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose this and am uncomfortable with the pretense that averaging "votes" are a way to reach consensus. Furthermore, I am not a campaign volunteer for anyone and object to that characterization above. Shall we assume that those who want to include it here are McCain campaign workers? Tvoz/talk 18:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support #4 or #5, with #3 as second choice for compromise, as above. This solicitation of consensus compromise, rather than straw polling, is of course the correct method for reasonable editors, but I believe there are enough unreasonable editors here for ongoing destabilization (we haven't even touched the closer acquaintances yet!). I have no particular editors in mind, of course. But then, since I favor the article being defeatured anyway, I have a conflict of interest, because my interests would favor my hand-waving about chaos irregardless. So take everyone including me with a grain of salt. JJB 13:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Call the question after detailed discussion: Option 3 or not?

Please review the discussion between the initial tally ("!Votes (please move your votes to this section if they arent already and bolden them)") and this point, and perhaps previous discussions. For the sole reason that the initial tally seemed to give more support for Option 3 than any other choice, this is organized three ways around Option 3, but with total flexibility in voting for a preference. So after having seen additional discussion, which option do you support as a first or second choice? Please choose among the following choices, and if we get a consensus around one of them, we can go with that. Please keep in mind that we are trying to reach a consensus, which is something well over a majority:

Prefer something less specific than Option 3

Option 1 was to say nothing; Option 2 was to give Ayers name without identifying him and mention there was a controversy (Between 1993 and 2002, Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a philanthropic organization providing grants to Chicago's disadvantaged people and communities. In 1999 he was joined on the board by Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. His association with Ayers would later draw media scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.)

Please state your first and second preference here, in one place (please indicate that if there is a consensus for your second choice, you will support that choice instead):

  1. 1 > 3 >> other. LotLE×talk 23:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. No. 1 or possibly no. 3. I think option 1 is the best because I do not see the issue as having enough weight and relevance to mention. However, I do not see it as a BLP issue. Therefore, as long as the specific wording can be kept neutral a 1-2 sentence reference that sticks to the facts and refers people to the specific article about the controversy would be fine...just so long as that stays stable and the article overall does not turn into a big coatrack. A few of these little controversies is okay; twenty different trivial controversies, no. So option 3 is acceptable, and oOption 4 is just about the same as no. 3., though I reserve judgment on the exact wording. Also,I think this numerical process is a problem., but as long as it brings peace to the article I can accept that. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 00:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC) (note change of opinion - at this time the process seems to be so thoroughly overrun by tendentious editors and possible sockpuppets that we should probably table the notion of adding unnecessary peripheral derogatory information that is already included in other articles, and take it up at some other time in a different manner) - Wikidemo (talk) 16:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. There can be only 1! (sorry, I couldn't resist). -- Scjessey (talk) 01:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  4. No. 1 as I prefer this article should mention the 'radical people controversy' as the campaign tactic it is, and link to more detail in the presidential campaign article, which would in turn link to any individual controversy articles as necessary. Flatterworld (talk) 04:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  5. I don't see how Obama's relationship with Ayers is notable or important enough to be included in this article, Ayers' association with Obama was only brought up during the 2008 campaign so it is already mentioned in the only place it should be. Is it a BLP violation? Some might see it as such, but it is does not appear to be one when it is already mentioned in the Obama campaign article, and in more detail in the Bill Ayers election controversy article, it being included in this article does not make it any worse than the other articles, however I still see no reason for it to be in this article. --Chetblong (talk) 05:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  6. No, material is already covered with due weight elsewhere. The material already exists at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, and was a very minor campaign/debate-related controversy. I'd also like to note the previously stated opinion of User:HailFire, this article's #1 contributor, whose input I value far more than the single-purpose accounts participating in this poll: "[The Ayers edit] is a smoothly scripted shoehorn. Ask this: how is the Ayers membership on the Woods Fund board or the hosting of an event in 1996 worthy of inclusion in a summary section describing Obama's early life and career? Isn't any Ayers-related text best handled in the campaign subarticle as other editors here have previously stated? Please help to keep this article's first section evenly weighted and do not let it continue to devolve into a venue for election year attention seeking. --HailFire (talk) 06:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)" "Shoehorn" is certainly the correct word for what's taking place here. Shem(talk) 17:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  7. Option 1 No mention of Ayers in this bio, as per HailFire, Shem, et al. This story has not increased in prominence and is a very minor blip in his life that is appropriate at most as sub-article material. This is a biography of a notable individual, not an article about a candidate. It is not a campaign piece pro or con. The Ayers matter has no significance in an article about his whole life. Tvoz/talk 19:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  8. Option 1 It is simply not notable to his biography. I earlier expressed an opinion saying that I would accept #3 (with the caveat that I didn't necessarily agree), but that was really just a compromise to end what seemed to be an intractable edit war. Upon reflection, there really isn't room for "compromise" on this one. Ayers is barely a campaign issue and is rarely even mentioned in news stories when they round up the stumbles of the primary campaign ("flag pin" and bowling are more commonly mentioned). It is not in the slightest bit a biographical issue. --Loonymonkey (talk) 10:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Option 3 as first choice

Option 3: Between 1993 and 2002, Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a philanthropic organization providing grants to Chicago's disadvantaged people and communities. In 1999 he was joined on the board by Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. His association with the former radical activist would later draw media scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.

Please state your first and second preference here, in one place (please indicate that if there is a consensus for your second choice, you will support that choice instead):

  1. Option 3, if not, options 4. --— Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 00:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. I'm fine with Option 3. I can also live with Option 4 The issue has already been give enough weight. Anymore would push into a POV (Sorry I'm too tired to pull up the various wikipolicies and suggestions that cover this.) and possibly loose this article's FA status. Brothejr (talk) 00:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. 3 as a first choice, but I'd support any of the options 2-8 that have a better chance of gaining consensus. At this point, with six editors opposed to any mention of Ayers at all, I think this is the most likely option to gain consensus. That minority has shown itself to be adamant, and after all this discussion, they are unlikely to change their minds. My guess is that editors might be able to form a consensus around this option or Option 4, and I'm moving my vote here as a sign that the majority in favor of some inclusion needs to be flexible. Inclusion itself is the most important thing, precise wording is important but secondary. I encourage others to consider changing their votes for the same reasons. Noroton (talk) 18:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC) Please see Proposal to rally around Option 3 below. Noroton (talk) 19:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  4. Would there be a way to tweak option No. 3? (Since terming somebody who'se admittedly currently an activist but may/may not believe himself radical, a "former radical activist" is less than precisely factual.) — Justmeherenow (   ) 19:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer a different Option with more details than Option 3

There are several other options already described above, but none have a large number of supporters.

Please state your first and second preference here, in one place (please indicate that if there is a consensus for your second choice, you will support that choice instead):

  1. I'd be fine with the use of 3, but realistically, I don't see a major difference between 3 and 4. Calling Ayers a former radical activist and the founder of a defunct radical activist group are for all intents and purposes the same thing. The one issue I have is that with #4 it gives the appearance that Weatherman was founded by Ayers alone, not that he was one of 11 people, so calling him co-founder or one of the founders is probably more appropriate than just founder. --Bobblehead (rants) 00:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. 7 or 8. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  3. As above, a bit more (though not too much more) inclusion needed. Simply stating that Obama knew a controversial man will leave the reader confused as to why without a brief blurb. The Evil Spartan (talk) 04:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  4. You can repackage the voting, but I still like 4 & 5. I don't much object to any of the options that are truthful statements, however.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  5. Ayers and Dohrn hosted the Obama's coming out party as a politician. Ayers helped select Obama to direct spending $100 mill over five years as the head of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. Obame was part of the consensus to bring Ayers onto the board of the Woods foundation and later name Ayers Chairman of that Board. In areas of the country less refined than Hyde Park many people think it quite as revealing that Obama had no qualms associating with an unrepentant terrorist as that he selected and retained as his minister a nutty anti-American racist demagogue or that his campaigns drew heavily on financing from a convicted corrupt fixer who would not be expected to commit crimes in order to get money to Obama without getting anything in return. The Obama fan POV that none of this is of any significance has to allow for the existance of a different POV. Option 3 doesn't cut it. Andyvphil (talk) 12:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  6. No. 7 or No. 8. We have a plurality in favor of some version more inclusive than No. 3, and a clear majority in favor of something at least as inclusive as No. 3. Anyone trying to enforce No. 1 in the article mainspace will be reported at WP:ANI for disruptive and tendentious editing. WorkerBee74 (talk) 15:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC) — WorkerBee74 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    Just wondering, do all of WorkerBee's sox have black-'n'-yellow stripes? <me being stupid> — Justmeherenow (   ) 17:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  7. Support in principle but will compromise. — Justmeherenow (   ) 15:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  8. No. 7. Anything less than No. 5 is a whitewash. 68.31.80.187 (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC) — 68.31.80.187 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  9. No. 5, No. 6 or No. 7. 70.9.18.59 (talk) 12:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC) — 70.9.18.59 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  10. No. 4 or No. 5 equally, followed by No. 3 or No. 7 equally, exactly as above. Since 3 is not my first choice I report in this section instead, although polling so far makes clear that there is still an ideological divide that compromise upon 3 will not settle. I would compromise on 3 but there is not a move for it. Again, I favor defeaturing, so you may discount my emphasis on the present status being nonconsensus and instability. However, the proper means of proceeding is (I believe) for editors on the minimizing side to reread WP:COATRACK to realize an identification is not a coatrack, and for editors on the maximizing side to reread WP:SUMMARY to realize a biography is not a campaign article. But if you don't follow my advice, I'll be happy to use that as defeaturing evidence later. JJB 14:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a policy matter, and this poll is not useful for establishing consensus

  1. Sorry, no. Discussion on this issue has evolved significantly downpage, specifically with regard to its inclusion's abidance to Wikipedia policy (WP:BLP and WP:NPOV#UNDUE). The "spectrum" presented in this poll created a false dichotomy as evidenced by those who have gamed it to declare a numerical average to be "consensus," and voting has been plagued by single-purpose accounts (including possible sockpuppetry). Shem(talk) 23:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Agreed. I take full responsibility for this cock up, because I came up with this stupid "sliding scale" idea. After thoroughly studying the details of WP:BLP and talking to some other, more experienced editors, I realized that any inclusion of Ayers would violate Wikipedia policy. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to rally around Option 3

I've made this a separate section so that I can link to it from my !vote in the poll.

The number of Option 1 supporters is so high that we need a very high number of editors to reach a different consensus. I don't expect any (or very few) Option 1 editors to change their opinion. By far the most important consideration is whether or not the huge number of readers of this article (see this count of page views, showing a quarter of a million page views on June 4) should be given the chance to follow a link directly to the Bill Ayers and Bill Ayers election controversy articles. I think just doing that would be a solid improvement in this article, and I think the alternative is no consensus. Don't let the unachievable "best" be the enemy of the still-possible "better". Please change your !vote to support that option. Noroton (talk) 19:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, Justmeherenow has suggested that we may not want to use "radical" in the option 3 language. I think it can be tweaked, but I have a feeling that the word "former" (in the phrase former radical) might be objectionable to Ayers. In any event, we need to get an idea of what he calls himself nowadays, or we might be in violation of WP:BLP. I'm sure it can be sourced. If not, we're in trouble and we may have to go to something else (I'd suggest Option 4). Noroton (talk) 19:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Calling Ayers a "1960s radical" would solve the problem. A New York Times article (April 17, 2008) is titled "’60s Radicals Become Issue in Campaign of 2008" It would leave open whether or not he is still a radical, which hasn't exactly been the controversy anyway. Noroton (talk) 20:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
As this discussion has progressed, I've become convinced that no mention of Ayers is appropriate for this biography. Particularly striking in this direction is the supposed "ample reporting" of the connection; the best evidence for non-relevance is provided by those very anti-Obama partisans who find a (very few, largely partisan) mentions. For example, in connection with my hypothetically urgent reporting of the fact "Obama ate corn flakes", I noticed that Google News shows more results for Obama+Corn than it does for Obama+Ayers (both of which are a tiny fraction of Obama+Wright, or Obama+Harvard, connections that are definitely worth mentioning).
That big caveat said, if some description of Ayers were included, the phrase "1960s radical" seems perfectly neutral and factual (and supported by the mentioned citation. Mind you, this is only neutral if other stuff isn't tacked on... nothing about the true state of his heart and soul ("unrepentant"), nothing about original research into his supposed bomb-planting, nothing about Dohrn (who was not mentioned in the debate question, despite fabrications in the recent edit war), etc. A simple substitution of "1960s radical" for "former radical activist" is reasonable (and even saves one word). LotLE×talk 21:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I would rally behind # 3 tweaked via LotE's /"Sixties radical"<---"former radical activist"/ as a good compromise ( ..sorta ironically, since Ayers went underground 11 years starting in 1969, the last year of this iconic decade.. ) — Justmeherenow (   ) 21:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Show's over I've given up. This is not going to happen. It seems to me that anyone bothering to participate here is just wasting time. There aren't enough editors interested in coming to a consensus. Noroton (talk) 17:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Close discussion as no consensus to include contested material

At this point there is obviously no consensus to include controversial material about Ayers. A variety of serious objections have been raised including relevance, weight, neutrality / POV, and BLP concerns. Inclusion, on the other hand, is not terribly important because the material sought to be included is covered in more detail in two other articles, that about Ayers and an article dedicated to the controversy in question. The process has gone downhill, with proponents of the material repeatedly breaking rank to add the material while the discussion is ongoing, and taunting others with name-calling[11]. Given that discussion has broken down and failed in its purpose to reach consensus or prevent edit warring, I think we should close the matter and leave the material out for good until and unless a consensus arises otherwise. Wikidemo (talk) 17:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If you mean we refuse to include material that is extremely notable to the subject because a few people misquote policy on their behalf, then no, I think it's not. The Evil Spartan (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I just left a notice on your talk page - you are edit warring[12][13] over adding the material. I will not respond in kind, but that kind of action is likely to get the article protected and proves my point. Your comment above doesn't dispute this, it just opposes it. But the way things work here, no consensus to add disputed material = material not added. Sorry. Wikidemo (talk) 17:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Clearly, when the poll's creator has disavowed its usefulness in consensus-building and its results have been plagued by single-purpose accounts (potentially socks), its results can yield no consensus. We can move on to Wright or Rezko, which I suspect'll yield more productive discussion and a workable consensus. Shem(talk) 17:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

There is an implicit consensus to continue with the tally because it's getting participation, and it's doing the job it was meant to do: showing everybody where everybody else stands as of now. This may bring us closer to a consensus by showing us where more compromise or discussion may be needed, or it may help us conclude no consensus is possible. (In that case, the material cannot be added.) Either way, it will have done its job. So far, the tally is showing that there is still a good-sized minority of editors who don't want anything at all about Ayers added to the article. To overcome that, support for any consensus position would need well over a majority. I left messages with the 26 editors who participated in the tally Scjessey organized above, and we should give them time over the weekend to consider the arguments and tell us what they think. I'm considering canvassing the past 20 contributors to this page (before the Ayers discussion started a week or two ago) and seeing what they think, but if I do that, I'll do it today in order not to drag this out. I don't know what Shem is talking about in stating the poll's creater has disavowed its usefulness in consensus-building. You don't shut down a poll hours after you started it, you give people enough time to look at the arguments, consider them, and !vote. Vigorous discussion here is the Wikipedia-approved alternative to edit warring, and it actually may be resulting in fewer revert wars. In the end, I think editors will be more likely to accept the results of a process they've participated in. Noroton (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, the editor who composed the "sliding scale" this vote is based upon, has denounced the structure as a "cock-up." Shem(talk) 19:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Discussion is one thing, repeated polls and voting and attempts to quantify opinions are another. I believe Scjessey acted in good faith when starting this approach, but I agree with his recognition that it is not particularly useful for reaching consensus. Let's move on - there's no consensus to include Ayers that I can see. Tvoz/talk 20:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a majority to include some mention of Ayers and no basis in policy for the assertion that a sizeable minority may veto inclusion of encyclopedic material. My evaluation of the "rough consensus" is that Ayers should be mentioned, and I will not hesitate to edit accordingly. Andyvphil (talk) 08:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The confrontational attitude is unfortunate. Comments like that serve to keep this article protected. If you act on them, you know that somebody would revert. Probably an administrator would not hesitate to block you accordingly for continuing the disruption that got this article locked in the first place. Since joining seven months ago -- long enough to learn that you cannot claim consensus by counting votes -- you have been blocked four times for edit warring, twice on this article. Your last block was a week. The next one may be longer. If you want to continue I suggest you mend your ways. Wikidemo (talk) 08:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Show's over Faced with eight options, I had always planned, if necessary, to post messages on the talk pages of particular editors to ask them to help form a consensus by switching their vote. In fact, that's the only practical way you can get from eight options to one -- by editors switching their votes as they agree to accept an option that can get a consensus. I thought my messaging on individual user talk pages, asking people to consider switching their votes, would promote consensus. However, I was informed yesterday by two editors that this appeared to be a violation of WP:CANVASS. I looked over that page and I have to agree, it can be interpreted that way. I think it's a screwy interpretation that doesn't promote consensus-building and doesn't remove disruption, two goals of that policy, but I can't be certain, given the way that page is written. At this point, I could go to that page and try to get editors to clear up whether this kind of thing is improper canvassing, but even if it's found to be just fine, the prospects here aren't good. Two many editors on both sides of this discussion simply don't want to come to consensus, and they are preventing it from happening. Many editors involved in this, especially the most active, continually poison the atmosphere with insults, violations of civility, refusal to assume good faith, closed minds that repeat tired arguments long after those arguments have been answered, exaggerations of the evidence and of policy and of the other side's arguments. The exclusionist side that has been largely occupying this page and editing the article is made up of a number of sincere people but also a number of people with absolutely closed minds and a refusal to consider that they might be wrong. The exact same thing can be said of many editors on the inclusionist side that I'm on. If I had to do it over again, I'd have to guess what proposal would gain enough consensus after I recruited more editors to come in, and then present only that one proposal, or more likely, that one and a proposal to do nothing, and put them side by side. At this point, I'm disgusted with about half of you, on both sides. For too many editors, this has been a children's playground, despite the fact that it's an important article for Wikipedia. Your antics have probably driven away too many adult editors who don't want to deal with your mess. I think more administrators should be taking a firmer hand with several of you for obvious, repeated violations of various behavior policies and guidelines, because you've caused the worst kind of disruption. Noroton (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Reverting attempt to "own" discussion, complete with tendentious "closing comments". Andyvphil (talk) 04:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference woods was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Curry, Tom (April 18, 2008). "Ex-radical Ayers in eye of campaign storm". MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-05-05. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  3. ^ Drogin, Bob (April 18, 2008). "Obama and the former radicals". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2008-06-03. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  4. ^ Curry, Tom (April 18, 2008). "Ex-radical Ayers in eye of campaign storm". MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-06-03. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
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