Talk:2017 New York City Subway bombing

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2017. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Title[edit]

What about 2017 New York City bus terminal explosion? Title as renamed is too generic? Coretheapple (talk) 15:14, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It might be generic, but it wasn't in the bus terminal, it was in the subway. How about 2017 New York City Subway explosion? epicgenius (talk) 15:49, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "New York City" ought to be in the article title port authority doesn't inform anyone not familiar with NY.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:55, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Article needs to be moved to an title that replaces "explosion" with "bomb". Examples of possible titles on articles about similar events include 2013 Wichita bomb attempt, and June 2017 Brussels attack ( a bomb that exploded a little, harming just the bomber), then we have 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt but Times Square is a unique identifier, immediately recognizable worldwide.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:55, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and the title needs to be tweaked also to make it more specific, as I noted previously. "Subway" would work. Coretheapple (talk) 18:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Most headlines don't include Subway in them, and it's not needed for disambiguation. As the bomb partially exploded, was it a bombing or merely an attempted bombing? Should we change explosion in the title to bombing or attempted bombing? Jim Michael (talk) 18:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The updated NY Times headline does indeed say "subway." Coretheapple (talk) 18:45, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coretheapple, thing is, he was heading away form the subway, he was in the pedestrian tunnel that heads away for the IND/8th Ave. subway.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@E.M.Gregory: That's still inside the subway station, within the paid area. The IND Eighth Avenue Line platforms are one block away from the other lines' platforms. epicgenius (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it's correct that it was in the paid area, but even if not, the subway station would encompass both paid and unpaid areas. Coretheapple (talk) 21:30, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rename the article "2017 New York Port Authority Attack" or "2017 New York Port Authority Bombing"- it fits with the location and was what it has been mostly reported as, 2017 New York City explosion is very broad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:58A:8000:AD69:D21:85:F550:6E4 (talk) 20:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How would unnecessarily adding Port Authority help? Most media reports don't have those words in the title and most of our readers aren't familiar with the name. Jim Michael (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'll wait and check tomorrow's headlines.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We can, though the coverage at the moment is quite heavy. I agree it's a tricky issue. "Port Authority" in the header is too narrow but as currently it is too broad and might engender confusion with other explosions this year, as I assume there were others. Coretheapple (talk) 21:30, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not aware of there having been any other notable explosions in NYC this year, though I agree that explosion should be replaced with bombing or attempted bombing. Replacing it with attack would require December being added to the title, as there have been other notable attacks in NYC this year. Jim Michael (talk) 21:57, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Walsak has moved it to 2017 New York City attempted bombing. He should be admonished for not discussing first. But the new title works for me.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:23, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is the only bombing (attempt) in NYC this year, so there's no need to specify Subway or Port Authority in the title. Jim Michael (talk) 12:17, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gentlemen, lest the confusion whether this occurred in a subway or bus terminal, the event did in fact happen in a walkway that connected the New York Port Authority Bus Terminal and the 7 Subway Train. DoctorSpeed (talk) 18:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rushing to call this "terrorism"[edit]

The term "terrorism" is defined as someone carrying out an act with a political motive. We have the media calling it out as well as the mayor but I see no top officials confirming this as such. Could it have been a lone wolf, or maybe some nut job? These are still possibilities without an official statement otherwise. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:32, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

AP citing mayor after being briefed on the incident saying “This was an attempted terrorist attack” and CNN reporting that Police Commissioner James O'Neill says it is a "terror-related incident." PackMecEng (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Terror related" doesn't mean terrorism. Usually officials are careful in their wording until an investigation is complete or until they know more info. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:22, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Odd to say terror related is not related to terrorism. But the majority of sources refer to it as such. So we have officials and RS calling it a terrorist attack. We report what RS say. PackMecEng (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Terror is just fear. Terrorism is using fear to coerce. Often, the media will say "terror" until things about a scary Muslim are clearer, hoping to invoke "terrorism" in the audience's minds. It works like a charm. But literally, they're still different words. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it generally gets over used. But in this case, it appears he was trying to set of a bomb off in a crowd of civilians for political reasons. This specific situation does fit the definition of terrorism. PackMecEng (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds more like simple vengeance to me, and he's apparently said as much. But yeah, it's politically correct for Western news to treat these revenge attacks as something complex, inspired by something vague and foreign. If you avenge Muslim death, you're an Islamist these days. Regardless, I've recently uncategorized this as a terrorist incident, simply because it presumes he's guilty as charged, rather than just charged. He probably is guilty, but WP:BLPCRIME is clear about this. Attributed to someone, it's fine, but in Wikipedia's voice, we're meant to wait for the judge, not the mayor. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reportedly in his words "I did it for the Islamic State" and his goal was "was to terrorize as many people as possible." NYT Would not that meet the self admission requirement? PackMecEng (talk) 01:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not to my ears, but I'm old school. Terrorists should have demands and threaten more terror if these aren't met, Orlando nightclub style. If the goal itself is the terrorizing of many people rather than accomplishing something by it, that's just someone trying to be "terrible" or "terrifying". He did admit to supporting a designated terrorist group (if the complaint is true), but that's also a different twist on the term. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:07, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It has been described by public officials in the media as an attempted terrorist incident, so yes, that's what we state per the sources. Coretheapple (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And by the Secretary of Homeland Security "The Department of Homeland Security is taking appropriate action to protect our people and our country in the wake of today’s attempted terrorist attack."" ABC. The NY Post and CNN are also stating Akayed Ullah "told authorities he was trying to exact vengeance for Israeli actions in Gaza". So officials, RS, and the suspects statements are calling it terrorism. PackMecEng (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think the US also takes the type of weapon into accounts. Bombs will almost always be treated as terrorism. For law enforcement, car ramming or shootings are going to be more ambiguous, and they are usually cautious issuing statements. They will call a bombing an "explosion" usually, until they verify it's a bomb, in which case it will usually be treated as terrorism (domestic or otherwise). Seraphim System ^(talk) 20:55, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Attempted bombing?[edit]

Is it appropriate to call this an "attempted bombing" instead of "bombing"? The "attempted bombing" was successful. A bomb did explode, therefore it shouldn't be called an "attempted bombing". I think the title is inaccurate. Gdeblois19 00:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, there certainly was a bombing, it just did not have the intended impact. C_(u)w_(t)C_(c) 00:51, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@ContinueWithCaution and Gdeblois19: I was looking at this article and wondering the same. Anyone object to the title being changed? Yousef Raz (talk) 01:47, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Revert rationale[edit]

I removed this quote because later sources revealed an actual motive that I already described in the article. Please remember the story rapidly expands and such a broad quote does not benefit our readers in the slightest.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:00, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You have arbitrarily deleted content sourced from NBC News, a WP:RS. The material you have deleted is:
«The purpose of the attacker was to "avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world."»^[1]
XavierItzm (talk) 05:11, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I replaced a broad, extravagant quote with an actual motive. Thank you for reinforcing that.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:PRESERVE, you are welcome to edit the content, not to abuse the process and delete. There are now three sources, anyway. XavierItzm (talk) 17:15, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ TOM WINTER; JONATHAN DIENST; TRACY CONNOR. "NYC blast suspect Akayed Ullah aimed to avenge Muslim deaths, source says". NBC News. Retrieved 11 December 2017. did it in the name of ISIS to avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world, law enforcement officials said.

Article title[edit]

I had to search Google to find this article, which suggests that it probably fails several criteria for WP:ARTICLENAMEs - would there be objections to moving it to 2017 New York City subway bombing? Seraphim System ^(talk) 10:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See also Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Other example, and above #Attempted bombing?, and #Title. I'd avoid "bombing": a self-made bomb partially detonated – "bombing" has kind of an overstatement ring to me. I'd avoid "New York City subway" (somewhat vague): "Port Authority Bus Terminal" is afaik the identified location. "Port Authority Bus Terminal suicide bomb attack" possibly might do for the time being? Personally I think this should be turned into a redirect to an appropriate section in the Port Authority Bus Terminal article ASAP. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:32, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, Port Authority bus terminal would do. It doesn't look like article is going to be deleted - I would consider a merger in the future, once we know more about the indictment and possible policy changes. (Same with the Halloween article.) If they are just pled out, and no policy changes materialize, I would support mergers.Seraphim System ^(talk) 10:45, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Or merge to List of terrorist incidents in New York City#December 11, 2017: comparing to the scale of other incidents listed there: there are several with a larger scale, and no separate article afaics: seems like WP:RECENTISM to select this one for a separate article nonetheless. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:48, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Article is at AfD. If you have an opinion, take it there.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that the bombing didn't happen in the bus terminal. It happened in the subway station next to the bus terminal. epicgenius (talk) 16:57, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Now that suspect is stating that he was targeting the subway , I could go along with 2017 New York City subway bombing. thoughts Coretheapple?E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:09, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why was this article's name changed without discussion? The current one (2017 New York City attempted bombing ) is to generic. Perhaps "subway" should be added. Coretheapple (talk) 22:40, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@E.M.Gregory: Just saw your post. I think 2017 New York City subway bombing attempt would work. I agree with the "attempt" or "attempted" aspect of the current title. People should not be changing the article title peremptorily when a discussion is underway,.Coretheapple (talk) 22:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm good with 2017 New York City subway bombing attempt. Since bomb was a fizzle.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism of NY Post quote[edit]

This has been twice deleted by the same editor:
The suspect declared to investigators "he was trying to exact vengeance for decades of violence against Muslims in Gaza, Syria and Iraq".^[1]^[2]^[3]
Since there are three sources, this looks like vandalism. XavierItzm (talk) 17:28, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Xavierltzm you do realize the Slate and NBC sources say nothing about the quote, correct? That is OR, sorry to say. I don't have much else to address because I explained why an ambiguous and newsy quote doesn't belong -- twice in edit summaries.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 17:40, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really think NY Post should be used as WP:RS anyway. Seraphim System ^(talk) 04:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Slate corroborates the NY Post quote almost verbatim. Here is what Slate writes:
detonated the bomb to avenge Muslims killed around the world
The comment that "Slate and NBC sources say nothing about the quote" is simply wrong.XavierItzm (talk) 13:15, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We'd twisted that around to say he was avenging ISIS, rather than Muslims. Not cool. Fixed now. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:50, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I'll add back the refs to that support the sentence. XavierItzm (talk) 16:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Shawn Cohen; Max Jaeger; Reuven Fenton; Natalie Musumeci. "Suicide bombing suspect was a cab driver bent on revenge: cops". NY Post. Retrieved 12 December 2017.
^ Molly Olmstead. "NYC Bombing Suspect Charged with Supporting Act of Terrorism". Slate. Retrieved 12 December 2017. Authorities have also revealed Ullah said he was angry over U.S. bombings in ISIS territory and detonated the bomb to avenge Muslims killed around the world
^ Jonathan Dienst, Marc Santia, Pei-Sze Cheng, Sarah Wallace, Joe Valiquette, Pete Williams, Tom Winter and Jennifer Millman. "Port Authority Bomb Suspect Says He Was Angry About Muslim Killings, Meant Blast as Suicide Attack: Officials". WNBC - NBC4 New York. Retrieved 12 December 2017.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[1] TOM WINTER; JONATHAN DIENST; TRACY CONNOR. "NYC blast suspect Akayed Ullah aimed to avenge Muslim deaths, source says". NBC News. Retrieved 11 December 2017. did it in the name of ISIS to avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world, law enforcement officials said.

[2] Shawn Cohen; Max Jaeger; Reuven Fenton; Natalie Musumeci. "Suicide bombing suspect was a cab driver bent on revenge: cops". NY Post. Retrieved 12 December 2017.

[3] Molly Olmstead. "NYC Bombing Suspect Charged with Supporting Act of Terrorism". Slate. Retrieved 12 December 2017. Authorities have also revealed Ullah said he was angry over U.S. bombings in ISIS territory and detonated the bomb to avenge Muslims killed around the world

[4] Jonathan Dienst, Marc Santia, Pei-Sze Cheng, Sarah Wallace, Joe Valiquette, Pete Williams, Tom Winter and Jennifer Millman. "Port Authority Bomb Suspect Says He Was Angry About Muslim Killings, Meant Blast as Suicide Attack: Officials". WNBC - NBC4 New York. Retrieved 12 December 2017.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

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