Talk:Çelebi (tribe)

Concerns about the content (edit history).

Well then, regarding the recent changes of the article, I have two concerns about the statement of the Çelebis role during the 1915-Armenian/Syriac/Christian-Genocide:

1. Firstly, the classification of the Çelebis as a "Tribe" or "Clan" is erroneous. The correct term would in fact be "Family", since they're actually not a separate Kurdish tribe/clan but rather, as a family, part of Kurdish tribe with another name (See the work of van Bruinessen on this, as an example, "Agha, Shaikh and State" (1992) page 102)

2. Second, it is, amongst the people of the region, a fact to this day that the Çelebis, togheter with the other ruling families of the Hevêrkan-clan, protected Christians during the Genocide (unlike other Kurdish and Turkish tribes at the time). The aforementioned source (van Bruinessen pages 101 ff.) can be counseled for more information on this matter.

3. The Economist article, which is obviously not original research, but as I read it, seems to me only be pointing towards a general participation of Kurdish tribes of the region, and not this one in particular.

4. In any case, there are additional works in this field (that is: Kurdistani society and the history of particular Kurdish tribes) to be looked into, for example by Nezir Cibo/Nezîr Cibo, "Haverkan Sultanları"; "Kürt Tarihinde Garzan ve Pencinarîler". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.70.61.65 (talk) 18:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add a point 5 to the comment above:

5. It is a terrible thing to accuse somebody of participating in horrible deeds when they in fact acted otherwise, which this article seems to be doing regarding the 1915-Genocide.

Further on, the source for this is only a simple statement in The Economist which basically boils down to "Some people accuse them of this..." which means that there is in fact no sufficent source provided by The Economist (who first published the claim).

The Economist cites people, without taking into consideration the context of the role of the descendants of the Celebis of today, which is a highly politically sensitive one, with all the Turkish Government-PKK tensions.

Nonetheless, history can't be turned into political propaganda, and it is not fitting for an Encyclopedia to make very strong statements (claiming that somebody partook in genocide is a very strong statement!) without having sufficient evidence for those claims.

The logical conclusion: Nobody should, in any case, be "non-proving" a "non-fact"! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.70.61.65 (talk) 14:56, 26 January 2019 (UTC)