Talk:Republic of Ireland

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2023

Change estimated population from 5,123,536 to 5,281,600 based on CSO report: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2023/keyfindings/ Garography (talk) 09:47, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Ireland naming discussions

Per WP:ARCA#Motion: Ireland article names - Required location of move discussions rescinded, discussions on Ireland article names no longer have to take place at WT:IECOLL. In future, they can take place on article talk pages. Scolaire (talk) 13:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

We should probably keep a fixed link to previous discussions in the header, even if future ones take place here. Canterbury Tail talk 16:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

The "debate" on this should have been much better flagged. I don't think there are any arbcom members there now who were also there in 2009. And in my opinion, IECOLL should still be used as the default location for RM debates, as any proposed move will involve three pages, more than likely. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Here is a list of all the links compiled by Crouch, Swale. I don't know where it should go, though – certainly not on the top of this page. Scolaire (talk) 17:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm working on the template, it should be done by the time the IECOLL-talk TFD is closed. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

What do you intend to do with it then? There's no way it should go on the top of this page. It's far too bloated. Scolaire (talk) 17:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I will add the RM discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration and collapse the older discussions and those that were speedily closed on the article talk pages. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Would it not be better to convert your template into a page, say Talk:Republic of Ireland/Naming discussions, and then create a template that says "For previous discussions on the naming of Ireland articles, see Talk:Republic of Ireland/Naming discussions"? Scolaire (talk) 09:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

There are at least 3 articles that the restriction affected, island, country and DAB page and the flag was also it seems discussed. Similar to Ford its not a single page so putting it at Talk:Republic of Ireland/Naming discussions similar to say Talk:United States/Name wouldn't be helpful as it would only cover the country discussions when primary topic is also a major discussion point maybe moreso than the Republic of Ireland v Ireland (country) debate. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:41, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

[It] wouldn't be helpful as it would only cover the country discussions. It would cover everything it covers. The only difference is that it wouldn't be sprawled across three or more pages. Instead you (or I) could create a small template – about the size of the now disused IECOLL template – which could go at the top of every page it might be needed, and serve exactly the same purpose: pointing users to previous discussions. Where the page is doesn't matter; my suggestion was just that: a suggestion. Scolaire (talk) 10:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail: a link to those past discussions, being placed at this page, the Ireland page & the Ireland (disambiguation) page, should suffice. GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I think that would likely cover it. Canterbury Tail talk 17:34, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

@GoodDay, Canterbury Tail, and Crouch, Swale: I have added Template:Ireland naming discussions to the top of the relevant talk pages. It simply replaces Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration with Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles can be found at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration and its archives. Scolaire (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

That's great :) GoodDay (talk) 15:12, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

@Scolaire: But what about the other discussions and future discussions. IECOLL only has discussions from 2009 to 2023 and doesn't have those previously and future RMs unlike the Ford or Georgia RM templates. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:56, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

The Ford and Georgia templates have future RMs? Seriously, though, all I've done is replace a pointer to IECOLL with a different pointer to IECOLL. That's all anybody has asked for here. If you were to create a page, as I suggested (and it would take some work, since your template is missing vast swathes of relevant discussion), then I would change the template to point to it. Scolaire (talk) 19:06, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Just a thought. Shall we consider retiring (label inactive) WP:IECOLL? After all, we do have WP:IE, WP:UK & WP:NIR. Those three WikiProjects should suffice. GoodDay (talk) 21:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

There is no such country as the Republic of Ireland. The Irish Constitution is quite clear about the name of the country: "The name of the country is Éire or, in the English language, Ireland." — Preceding unsigned comment added by SanVitoresII (talk • contribs) 18:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

And not a single person has claimed otherwise. Everyone knows it's actual name, that's not in dispute. Canterbury Tail talk 18:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request - 8/4/2024

Inexplicably, someone in the past day or two has been changing the demographics in the sidebar to list the largest ethnic group as "Asian Irish", as well as changing the percentages. Can someone revert this? Samonellamiller (talk) 02:55, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll take a look now. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah - that guy. No idea how long it took that obvious vandalism-only account so long to be perma-blocked. All the changes were reverted. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean why don't you take your time to learn on how to revert an edit, it's not that hard! Luigi Cotocea (talk) 10:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, why don't you take your own advice and learn how things work here? It's not that hard, Luigi Cotocea. The page is semi-protected, meaning accounts must have made a minimum number of edits before they can make edits. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Look, i edit on Romanian wikipedia a lot, so on English wikipedia is different. Luigi Cotocea (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:51, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Not the Republic of Ireland

The name of Ireland is simply Ireland and not the Republic of Ireland. One may refer to the official list of countries from the United Nations or to the websites of the government of Ireland which both indicate this 72.51.112.144 (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes everyone knows. However it's a natural disambiguator since the island is also called Ireland. There are very few country articles on Wikipedia that are actually at their official names. Canterbury Tail talk 17:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Its official description is "Republic of Ireland" which is used as natural disambiguation, see discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. In contrast "Republic of France" isn't common usage and the country is primary which is why we don't use the official description for France. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, well noted. However unlike the use of "Republic of France", "Ireland" is by the far the most common name used for the state in everyday use, both nationally (Ireland) and internationally (Europe, US and further a field). This is clearly demonstrated in the name of state in Wikipedia pages in other languages, for example Irish, German, French, and Dutch. There is little argument for the continued use of the "Republic of Ireland", it has no legal basis or no basis in everyday use. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@TomÓCiarraí: How do you distinguish between the island of Ireland, and the country of Ireland? You will see at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration which @Crouch, Swale referred to above, that there have been several long discussions previously about this, but never a WP:CONSENSUS to change the articles' names. Bazza 7 (talk) 09:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I know this has been discussed to death but surely putting the island to "Ireland (island)" and the country to "Ireland" would be the most accommodating arrangement? What are the cons? I think it makes sense that the country would take precedence over the geography (some examples I came up with: America points to USA not the continent, Austrailia points to the country not continent). D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not the island as "Ireland" and the country to "Ireland (state)"? The island is likely the primary usage considering its existence throughout history and not just 100 and a bit years. Canterbury Tail talk 20:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Age isn't the primary factor in which page should take precedence. Notice how America and Australia have existed as continents for millennia and yet the country takes precedence.

You are making an assumption when you say the island is the primary usage. I checked the page statistics here and while the island page is currently higher I reckon that's due to it currently being the primary as the patterns on both pages match up. This indicates to me that most views are expecting the country and clicking through to the country page rather than finding what they want on the island page (there is also the possibility of reading both pages).

As an Irish person I find it somewhat demeaning that you insist the island is the main page and relegate the country to being the secondary topic and clearly others feel this way also whereas moving the island page is generally inoffensive. D1551D3N7 (talk) 21:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree, that the country should take precedence over the island. More times than not when people refer to Ireland they are referring to the country not the island. As mentioned before this is not the case for Wikipedia in other languages, and the current setup in English is confusing to say the least. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you have evidence for that that takes into account thousands of years of historical record before the country was formed? A huge proportion of the world doesn't actually realise there's a difference between Ireland the country and Ireland the island, and most overseas interactions with Ireland on a personal level are regarding the island historically and not the modern political state. As an Irish person I find it somewhat demeaning that people want to sweep aside the history of the island and say that it's only the modern state that is the important topic. Canterbury Tail talk 11:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Cannot see how this is sweeping aside history. The modern country of Ireland is very much connected with its history, the country was not created in a vacuum. Struggling to see what your reason is to not call the country by its official name, and the name in which most people globally use (aside from the UK potentially). TomÓCiarraí (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, generally in Ireland and internationally both officially and informally when referring to the country "Ireland" is used and when referring to the island "Island of Ireland" is used. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually I meant "French Republic" but in any case although that may be the long official descriptive name I've never heard it used while I've always heard Ireland, the country called "Republic of Ireland" which specifically stated as being the official description. The French constitution doesn't appear to specify the country's long official descriptive name but more importantly is common usage. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a page on this at Names of the Irish state which is very detailed.

As you are British you will commonly be exposed to "Republic of Ireland" in usage as that's the name British law has chosen to use but for people living in Ireland and the rest of the world this is not the case. The name for the UN, EU, Council of Europe, IMF and OECD is "Ireland". The only place "Republic of Ireland" is used as a name is for the soccer team and also notably this Wikipedia page. Google for "Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" and notice the difference in the results.

An "official description" is not a name, why are we supposed to use a description of the country as the title instead of its common and constitutional name?

Only Brits commonly use the "Republic of Ireland" due to Northern Ireland being a common part of their discourse (and need to disambiguate for politics, travel, business) but other countries internationally assume Ireland to be the country or don't have a need for disambiguation so often. Normally if people want to refer to NI they say NI, it's only in the UK that people would ever assume "Ireland" to mean "Northern Ireland" and thus need to disambiguate. D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The description of the country is separate to the name of the country. As per Article 4 of the Constitution, the name of the country in English is "Ireland". "Republic of Ireland" has no official status as a name. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

And not a single person here thinks otherwise. Canterbury Tail talk 11:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

You are indeed correct. Just wanted to ensure there was no equivalence given between description and official name. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 11:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Can I please ask those who are simply restating established facts, as if they are arguments, to realise that you're not going to "one and done" this discussion by doing so. It is acknowledged fact that Ireland is the name of the state (per the constitution). And that the Republic of Ireland is a description (per the Act). And that the island is also called Ireland (commonly and per the constitution). Etc. Simply restating these established facts (as a kind of "gotcha") is pointless. And does not address the issue that we cannot have two articles with the same title. Please argue your point on the basis of your proposal. And the relevant naming and disambiguation guidelines. For example, if you think that it should be "Ireland" and "Ireland (island)", then argue why the name of the state is (now) the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (over the island). Or, if you think it should be "Ireland (state)" and "Ireland", then argue why a clunky/Wikipedia-only parenthetical disambiguator is preferred over the common, natural language and officially recognised descriptor. To the extent that WP:NCDAB should be overlooked. Stating things like "the state is called Ireland [fullstop/gotcha]", or "Republic of Ireland is a description not the official name [mike drop]", is about as useful in progressing this discussion as quoting Pi to 10 decimal places. Guliolopez (talk) 12:01, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Well noted. I would argue for the use of Ireland / Ireland (Island) over Ireland (Country) / Ireland, as the former is the primary use of the term. This is demonstrated by a Google search where the majority of results relate to the country not the island. The term for the island has limited use, namely the geographical use for the island and organisations that cover Ireland and Northern Ireland such as the Irish rugby team. All other uses relate to the country. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 14:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Its the official description of the state, isn't that the point? When disambiguation is needed as it is on Wikipedia the description is appropriate but when it isn't such as when linking the country in the infobox of Rathmullan it is piped as "Ireland". Per WP:NCDAB if there is a term which is commonly used it can be used for natural disambiguation which seems appropriate here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

We are talking about a name not a description. They should not be equated. Officially the state should never be referred to as the Republic Ireland, hence this element of the 1948 act is irrelevant to this discussion on the name. As suggested the terms Ireland and Ireland (Island) should be used instead, given Ireland the country is the primary use of the term and not the island. Furthermore this overcomes the confusion between both terms. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 18:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I would like to support Tom's recommendation (new account but please don't hold that against me) that the primary use of "Ireland" should refer to the country rather than the island. I've noted the discussion at this location and elsewhere that not all states are referred to by their official name in their URL, however, I would suggest Ireland is unique in being the only country on Wikipedia where its name is shared with a geographic feature and the geographic feature takes precedence. By way of example, the primary topic for Belize, Jordan, Moldova, Niger, Paraguay, Chad and Guinea all refer to the states rather than the geographic features that share their name, i.e. Belize River, Jordan River, Moldova River, Niger River, Paraguay River, Lake Chad and Gulf of Guinea respectively. I would suggest Ireland the state should be at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland and the island of Ireland should be at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland (island) or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island of Ireland. Most people in Ireland and Northern Ireland would use the phrase "Island of Ireland" if needing to make the distinction between the state and the island but I appreciate the URL is a touch unwieldy so the bracketed (island) version may be more appropriate. Moreover, I think, as Tom mentions, generally, throughout the world, the use of Ireland refers to the state; that's not to say in some contexts people wouldn't use Ireland to refer to the island but it's most definitely in the minority. Consider the use of Paraguay; if the primary Wikipedia topic was about the Paraguay River and it said (paraphrasing) "oh, you're looking for the state, that's over here", I think it would be considered odd, confusing and inconsistent. Using Republic of Ireland for the topic on the state named Ireland seems incorrect and a touch anachronistic when a more sensible and consistent solution is available. Jkelly789 (talk) 01:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

can we add a closer up map on the infocard for Ireland?

possibly with county and other distinctions? since there's only the map of the globe and Europe in general. Qhacim (talk) 15:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)