Talk:Anni-Frid Lyngstad

"entitled to the style"

I was going to add the actual German, (Durchlaucht), but it appears that she's not actually 'entitled' to anything: there is no Princess or Count of the units mentioned, and even if there were, except for a few specific examples, the style is long obsolete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.201.223 (talk) 09:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Surname: Reuss

In spite of a few sourced wanting to make her look royal by incorrectly calling her "Princess Anni-Frid [with no surname]", at least as many know she is not and should never be called that. Her name is Anni-Frid Reuss and a historically obsolete title of "Princess" can be added as a courtesy (not a fact). --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:06, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

As far as I can detect, the 'royal' titles are only now deemed obsolete in Germany. Former titles can still be part of personal names but not at the forefront there. I don't think this has been applied anywhere else. The actual legal status of Princes and Princesses in Germany had been quashed in Germany after World War One but these titles continued to be recognised and especially in Royal and Aristocratic circles. She appears to only use her title on very formal occasions.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f78/princely-houses-of-reuss-9777.html Bovis Messroom (talk) 19:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Her legal name is probably Anni-Frid Synni Prinzessin zu Reuss, a name form which members of former German royal families are allowed to apply for. Anything else is actually illegal there. Not having access to her passport, we'll probably never know. Calling her "Princess" in English is only out of courtesy. If she were to use it as an actual title in German, she might be arrested. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

That name change would only apply if she was a German citizen and/or living there. This is complicated by the fact that she and her deceased husband, Prince Heinrich Ruzzo Reuss aren't German or ever lived there. Even Heinrich's parents were Swedish and Swiss-Italian. Some of these ancient Royal Houses existed in lands outside of what is modern Germany. There are quite a lot of Princes and Princesses of various former Kingdoms throughout Europe, Asia and elsewhere who appear to keep their titles despite not having any particular noble power. So, as you say, outside of aristocratic circles, there is no requirement to address them by their title but it is a courtesy thing. In this particular case, in public life and as a member of a famous Pop group, she is formerly known as Anni-Frid Lyngstad Reuss but nearly always as simply 'Frida', which she also signs autographs as. She is a close friend of Queen Silvia of Sweden so I guess she has kept her title and out of respect for her late husband. Bovis Messroom (talk) 13:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Even if she signed herself "Princess Frida", I don't think we'd be able to use that here... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed and it is right that the page title doesn't include it. However, Wikipedia has a worldwide audience and we should not simply apply things because of how one country now does things. She therefore does have that title through her marriage so it should at least be noted in her various known names. Bovis Messroom (talk) 01:28, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

She does not have any valid title since no government has issued it, neither to her nor to her late husband. It's a courtesy title. Since 1918 German titles could no longer be inherited, and no such title originating in Germany is valid or legal. What's in the lead now, about that, is quite sufficient. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Governments don't issue doctorates or other academic titles either. In this case, it is purely hereditary. And again, you are talking as if this page is for Germany only. It isn't. So why would it be edited for how one country applies things? Even her late husbands page has been edited to have how his name would appear in Germany, even though he was not German or ever lived there. I'm not going to press on this because others appear to have a big bee in their bonnet over it. I agree with her most well known full name being the title of the page but Wikipedia should also not be governed by how one particular country sees things. Bovis Messroom (talk) 02:26, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The titles originated in Germany where all such titles were abolished in 1918. Makes no difference where these people have lived after that. Nobody, anywhere, regardless of residence or citizenship, has inherited any German titles that were valid (because they were government-issued) before 1918. Courtesy titles cannot be inherited but can be used as a courtesy. Only as such. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Consider Duke Ellington and Count Basie (or Count Chocula, for that mater). Wikipedia can say that Edward Kennedy Ellington and William Janes Basie are more widely known as Duke Ellington and Count Basie. It can't say that they are Duke and Count. TheScotch (talk) 18:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Those were nicknames (and a fantasy character). Here we are deling with courtesy titles based on past (now illegal) history, and as such also titles that are not sufficiently widely known about the subject person to be given in bold type. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Detail - but....

Ingvar Carlsson was not the Swedish Prime Minister at the time. 83.251.164.152 (talk) 17:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Please, write clearly what do you mean. :) Do you propose to edit some sentence of the article? Which one? D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 14:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm guessing they are talking about this sentence:

In 1993, on Queen Silvia's 50th birthday, Frida was asked to perform "Dancing Queen" on stage, as performed by ABBA when the king and queen married in 1976. Frida contacted The Real Group and together they performed the song at the Stockholm Opera House in front of the king and queen. The Swedish prime minister at the time, Ingvar Carlsson, also present that night, said it was an ingenious step to do "Dancing Queen" a cappella.

Carlsson was infact not PM in 1993 as one read the sentence but since I can't see the source for this comment I can't see what they were trying to say. Is it supposed to be a comment from when he was PM? 2A02:1406:1:61A6:DDE2:F3AB:7C30:DDEF (talk) 13:50, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

 Fixed (removed sentence) --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Early life section and Lebensborn status

I looked at this page because, in reading the entry about Lebensborn, I saw that AFL was cited as the most well-known Lebensborn baby. So, I thought I would find a corresponding section about that under AFL's entry, but I didn't. What I did find was unclear to me. It says AFL was born to... "...a German father, Alfred Haase (1919–2009), who was a sergeant in the Wehrmacht. According to Lyngstad initially, Haase died while returning to Germany from the war. His ship was reported to have been sunk while he was returning to Germany when his unit was evacuated." Is this meant to convey that AFL at one point publicly reported that her father died in her infancy and that she has since changed her story? Is that a delicate way for the entry to point to a Lebensborn origin that AFL didn't at one time acknowledge as factual (and perhaps still doesn't)? Maybe the Lebensborn entry is the one that needs to be changed (not presenting AFL's Lebensborn status as established fact), but the two pieces don't seem to line up together well in this respect. Thirddaughter (talk) 22:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Thirddaughter for pointing these out. Note the new June 2, 2024, 2:35, edit to AFL’s wikiarticle that conforms to the reliable source, The Guardian. There is no reliable source for Haase’s death when returning after the war, and the ‘Early life’ section with reliable sources has AFL meeting him about 30 years later. An editor supplied info that either was not in The Guardian cite or was made up and, regardless, without any source it had to be deleted. In keeping with the reliable sources AFL could be considered one of the Tyskerbarnas or one of the war children. See, the ‘Early life’ section as corrected. Thanks, again. Quaerens-veritatem (talk) 03:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Such great work...love it! Thirddaughter (talk) 04:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Thirddaughter! The improvement was due to your initiation.😊 Quaerens-veritatem (talk) 05:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I have re-edited the 'Early Life' section. The Guardian article that is used for reference was sadly sensationalist and poorly researched. Reading through it, it was clearly taking notes from a programme that appeared on the History Channel. The original programme dealt solely with the effects of Lebensborn in WW2 and particularly Norway. Later on, a second programme was commissioned called 'ABBA's Biggest Secret'. This used much of the same footage as the first one but, in tabloid style, they tried to make the details of Anni-Frid's birth a shameful thing that was being hidden from the public. Except, when you watch the programme, at no point do they ever say she was a 'Lebensborn' child. Can we nail this once and for all. Anni-Frid was born in mid November 1945. That was six months after WW2 in Europe ended and even longer since German forces evacuated out of Northern Norway. Hence there was NO Lebensborn homes or program operating during Synni's pregnancy. The nearest Lebensborn nursing home had been in Narvik, 42 km/26 miles away. The Lyngstad family had no contact with that organisation. A midwife couldn't even attend so Synni gave birth to Anni-Frid at home, assisted by her mother and sisters. Many years after, when Haase was found to be still alive, he denied any knowledge of the Lebensborn program and there is much doubt whether he knew he'd fathered a child in Norway at all. He and Synni had a year long affair. It is thought that Synni became pregnant after he visited her one last time before he was evacuated from Northern Norway in February 1945. After the war, the Lyngstad family wrote letters to the address in Germany he had given but they went unanswered. Then they were told that his ship had been sunk on its journey from Narvik. In the 1950's, Anni-Frid's aunt Olive and her husband travelled to Germany as they heard the German Government was paying compensation to abandoned children of military personnel in the occupied territories. They tried to find Alfred Haase or what happened to him on this visit too in order to show that Anni-Frid deserved some compensation. Unfortunately, sensationalist TV programmes and poorly researched articles that reference them should not be used on Wikipedia. Anni-Frid is indeed a 'War Child' and she is rightly mentioned under Wikipedia's 'War Children' page. But 'Lebensborn' relates to a specific organisation that vetted both parents for genetic 'purity'. They were registered with that organisation and the mothers received both pre and post natal care in the Lebensborn facility. None of this happened in the Lyngstad family case. Far better references are the highly researched and respected biographies by Carl Magnus Palm, especially 'Bright Lights Dark Shadows' and 'Frida Beyond ABBA' by Remko Van Drongelen. As a child of a German soldier in occupied Norway, Anni-Frid and her family did face the same scorn and retribution that those who were actual products of the Lebensborn program but we should not confuse the two different situations of her birth. Again, there was no Lebensborn program operating in Northern Norway during the pregnancy or when Anni-Frid was born. Bovis Messroom (talk) 12:29, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

The 'Early Life' section was fine as it was. Anni-Frid grew up believing her father had died on his way back to Germany. After the war, the Lyngstad family wrote letters to the address he'd given but they went unanswered. They were then told that his ship had been sunk. This was what she only knew. She didn't publicly report his demise in the early days of ABBA. It was a private matter but his name was still listed on her biographies, hence the Pop teen magazine 'Brovo' noting it. So nothing was hidden. She simply didn't know he was still alive. The Lebensborn entry was indeed incorrect and referencing a badly researched article in The Guardian. Anni-Frid is properly mentioned under the Wikipedia page on 'War Children' which does also include those born under the Lebensborn program. Anni-Frid, herself, or her family were not involved with that program. It didn't even exist at the time of her birth. German soldiers in occupied Norway were encouraged to fraternise with the local women but that is somewhat separate from the actual 'Lebensborn' program, where prospective parents were both vetted as being suitably 'pure' to their way ideology. So it wasn't a case of 'changing her story' or denying something. She simply didn't know he was alive. The truly amazing thing is, had she not gone on to be a famous Pop star and had her biography with her fathers name listed in a magazine, she likely would have gone on never knowing he still existed. Bovis Messroom (talk) 13:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)