Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jacques Offenbach/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12 May 2024 [1].
Jacques Offenbach[edit]
Together with marvellous colleagues I've got numerous French composers to FA and I hope the time has come to get Offenbach to join them. He's known to the world at large for the can-can, but is notable for much, much more. As always at FAC, comments, quibbles and recommendations for improvements will be welcomed. Tim riley talk 19:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Wehwalt[edit]
Just a placeholder as yet.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Offenbach quietly shifted the emphasis of his work from being a cellist who also composed to being a composer who played the cello.[43]" I would suggest adding an "also" after the second "who" to increase the parallelism.
- "The Champs-Élysées in 1855 were not yet the grand avenue laid out by Baron Haussmann in the 1860s, but an unpaved allée" Are we sure on the paving? this, though perhaps not the highest quality source, seems to contradict.
- Faris is unequivocal: "The site was on the Champs-Elysées (Baron Haussmann had not yet redeveloped Paris, and the present avenue des Champs-Elysées was an allée, planted but unpaved)". Even today you can get your shoes very mucky walking down that part of the Champs-Elysées when going to lunch at e.g. Ledoyen. Tim riley talk 15:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- " the Tuileries palace" Even with the decapitalisation craze, this one has survived, at least according to the article title. Perhaps the storming has not yet recurred.
- "(ostensibly to Roman mythology but in reality to Napoleon and his government, generally seen as the targets of its satire)" This is a rather long parenthetical and perhaps should be put in plain prose. Also, did Janin mistake the target of the work, and was annoyed at how Roman gods were portrayed, or was he outraged because of the irreverence toward the Emperor?
- " but has not subsequently been revived as often as Offenbach's best-known operettas.[111]" Perhaps simplify to "but has been revived less often than Offenbach's best-known operettas".
- Should the lyrics for the quintet for the kings be in italics? Also other lyrics.
- "Offenbach often composed amidst noise and distractions." It's unclear what this means as the rest of the paragraph doesn't touch on it. Are these the normal noises and distractions one would expect from family life in a large city? If that's all, is it worth mentioning?
- "Wagner, ignoring Berlioz, retaliated by writing some unflattering verses about Offenbach" Are we talking about correspondence or something more public?
- "Largo al factotum" consider a link.
Image review[edit]
- File:Offenbach-mentors.jpg needs a US tag, as do all of its source files
- File:Young_Offenbach.jpg: source link is dead, needs a US tag
- Doesn't look like any changes have been made on this one? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Some genius has moved the image from Wikipedia to Commons since yesterday, omitting the tag you ask for. It had the wp:old tag when in the former. I do not know how to add a US tag to a Commons file.
- File:Bouffes-Parisiens.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Hortense-Schneider-cropped.jpg, File:Offenbach_and_son_Auguste.jpg, File:Offenbach-by-André-Gill.jpg, File:Punch_-_Offenbach_elegy.png
- File:Halevy-Meilhac-Strauss-Sullivan.jpg: second source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Replaced. Thank you, as ever, Nikkimaria, for your sharp eye. I hope all is now tickety-boo. Tim riley talk 09:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Afterthought: Nikkimaria, I have replaced the Punch image with an 1860s photo of Offenbach. Would you mind checking that out as well? Tim riley talk 10:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Replaced. Thank you, as ever, Nikkimaria, for your sharp eye. I hope all is now tickety-boo. Tim riley talk 09:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- File:Contes-d'Hoffmann-1881.jpg is tagged as missing author info.
- File:Offenbach_and_Strauss.jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild[edit]
Recusing to review.
- "As he was by then the permanent cantor of the local synagogue, Isaac could". Optional: 'As Isaac was by then the permanent cantor of the local synagogue, he could'.
- The very last sentence of Early years needs a citation.
- It has two – in the footnote. Seems OTT to duplicate them in the main text. Tim riley talk 08:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- The usual convention is to cite the text rather than have a reader chase citations in a footnote in the hope that one of them also gives the main article source. (It never occurred to me that that might be the case here.) If this causes a perceived redundancy, so be it. On a similar note "a play on words loosely translated as "I am certainly the Father, but each of them is my Son and Wholly Spirited" " ends with a footnote but neither it nor the main text are cited.
- OK. Belt and braces it shall be. As to the explanation of the French pun, it is mine, I think. If you decree that it must be blitzed if uncited I shall comply, but it might leave the non-Francophone reader puzzled. Tim riley talk 12:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm. The MoS says "Quotations from foreign-language sources should appear with a translation into English, preferably a modern one." It does allow the possibility of "When editors themselves translate foreign text into English" but makes no suggestions as to how to cite this. Lacking a translation in a source(?) I am personally happy to not cite it on a 'sky is blue' basis.
- OK. Belt and braces it shall be. As to the explanation of the French pun, it is mine, I think. If you decree that it must be blitzed if uncited I shall comply, but it might leave the non-Francophone reader puzzled. Tim riley talk 12:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- The usual convention is to cite the text rather than have a reader chase citations in a footnote in the hope that one of them also gives the main article source. (It never occurred to me that that might be the case here.) If this causes a perceived redundancy, so be it. On a similar note "a play on words loosely translated as "I am certainly the Father, but each of them is my Son and Wholly Spirited" " ends with a footnote but neither it nor the main text are cited.
- "he and the principal cellist played alternate notes of the printed score". Sheer brilliance! :-)
- Between 1835 and 1844 the narrative is date free. Any chance of inserting one or two? Especially towards the start of the paragraph beginning "Among the salons".
- Is there a link for "programmed", or could you add a brief explanation. I have no idea what it means, other than that it probably isn't the obvious Programming (music). Program music?
- This comment surprised me. The first definition of the verb in Chambers is "to include something in a programme; to schedule". I think WP:OVERLINK would prevent our linking such an everyday term to Wiktionary. I've changed to "played", which I'm not wild about, but is the verb used in the source (infelicitously in my view as conductors don't play anything themselves). Tim riley talk 08:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- "the comtesse de Vaux's 200 guests". Should that be an upper-case C?
- Not in French usage. French capitalisation is expressly designed to confuse the innocent Anglo-Saxon. Tim riley talk 08:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- It succeeds. I am unconvinced of the relevance of French usage in an English-language article, but let it pass.
- "which had opened the previous year". The year previous to when?
Gog the Mild (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- "shortly after the first performance of the Mozart piece". I am not sure that the last four words are necessary.
- "gained much popularity where the duet of the two gendarmes became a favourite number in England and France". This doesn't quite work for me grammatically. (I think it is your use of "where" that is throwing me off.) Gog the Mild (talk) 12:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Prussia's crushing victory at Sedan (1870)". Perhaps 'at Sedan in September' or 'at Sedan that September'? Gog the Mild (talk) 23:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- "from the decade have remained among his best known". Minor suggestion "the" → 'this'?
- "working on lines agreed with him." Lines as in the words in the script (learning ones lines) or as working under Offenbach's direction (working along the same lines)?
- Any particular reason for using ; rather than the more usual section headers?
- Perhaps link Ave Maria?
- Not sure about that. I don't know if it will help more readers than it irritates. They may reasonably expect to be taken to an article on Offenbach's Ave Maria rather than the non-musical RC prayer. Tim riley talk 15:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- If the text read 'The Ave Maria', with Ave Maria either in italics or quote marks, I would take your point. Having no idea what an Ave Maria is, or was(?), I typed it into another window out of interest. It would be nice to spare other readers the bother.
Magisterial. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Gog. We had an offline exchange about the "lang" templates, and I'd be glad if you could spare the time to check that they are OK here. Tim riley talk 16:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- I have added some. It started to get a bit robotic, so I shall return when I am feeling fresher. You will want to check that I haven't broken or mutilated anything. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- I mention this with trepidation, but shouldn't La Vie parisienne have a lower-case v? And its Wikipedia article be retitled? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- I would prefer to lower case the Vie, but, as I say above, French capitalisation is expressly designed to have Englishmen sticking straws in their hair: if you can spare five minutes, have a gander at this. Tim riley talk 16:36, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- From the International Music Score Library Project, whom one might assume know about such things. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Do née and né need to be in italics? Are they not ordinary English words? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not in my opinion, but remove the italics and wait to see how long it is before someone rushes in to put them back. Fowler (current edition) italicises the word; Chambers doesn't and the OED is all over the place about it. Tim riley talk 17:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- :-) It was an open question. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Support from Draken Bowser[edit]
What a lovely read. I'll attempt a source review this weekend, unless someone beats me to it.
In the meantime:
- Optional: "Offenbach's (or) the
hisearnings from his orchestral work enabled him" to avoid his .. his .. him
- "the government lifted
thelicensing restrictions on the number of performers"
-
- Agreed. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- "the scores usually performed and recorded were not composed by Offenbach, but were arranged by Carl Binder and Eduard Haensch" - Seems to conflate composing and arranging, could it be made more clear?
Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 09:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't want to start a conflict between reviewers (the process is arduous enough as it is), but I unfortunately can't stomach the rewrite of He thought it politic to revert temporarily to the name Jacob. So I guess I'm gonna have to. :) Draken Bowser (talk) 07:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- What do you think is wrong with the revised version? It conforms with the source. Tim riley talk 08:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, the new one is ok, I just really liked the phrasing of the old version. Draken Bowser (talk) 13:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Source review[edit]
- Spot check
Fotnoote numbers taken from [2] (as of writing equal to current version), source-to-prose comparisons to current version.
- 8 The move to Cologne is mentioned on p. 13
-
- Re-reading my comment I feel like I was trying to be as vague as humanly possible: we need p. 13 to verify the year they moved. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Done.
- 66 Check
- 79 Check
- 82 Check
- 98 I think we need p. 39 for Despite problems with the libretto.. For hotchpotch of romantic and mythological themes I'm not sure which page to use. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Nor I. It isn't my addition and I'll blitz it if you think fit. Tim riley talk 16:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think we need to axe the second one, which is a shame, it's so nicely put. Let's add p. 39 and keep the part about the libretto. Draken Bowser (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- 117 Check
- 133 I couldn't find his name in the archived version. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- 155 Check - Since footnote 155 cites all three pages, we could remove the second iteration of the note, leaving only the one at the end of the sentence.
- 157 Check
- 185 Alter range to 75–77 (includes 1864 and popularity)
- Done
- 191 Check
- 202
- Almeida: the sentence starts with one word on xi, is it customary to include this or not? Debussy is mentioned on page xvii.
- Faris: I might be confused, but the source does not seem to substantiate the specific claim.
-
- Unfortunately Almeida doesn't verify "Bizet", is he mentioned as a fan of Offenbach's in one of the other sources? Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- 203 Check
- 206 "..same kind."
My French liaison is unavailable for the next few days, I might re-roll those. Also, is there a way to read The Times through the Wikipedia library – NewspaperARCHIVE.com omits the last century? Draken Bowser (talk) 11:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately not. The Times archives are available online to most users in Britain via their local libraries, but one can't put in a url because each local authority library has its own url access address. Tim riley talk 18:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, there is: you can access through Gale (https://www-galepages-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/wikipedia, if you have access), - SchroCat (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- That's worth knowing for future reference, thank you SchroCat. Tim riley talk 19:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Great resource, thanks! Added some inquiries regarding 8, 98, 133 and 202. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- That's worth knowing for future reference, thank you SchroCat. Tim riley talk 19:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, there is: you can access through Gale (https://www-galepages-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/wikipedia, if you have access), - SchroCat (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overall
The selection of book sources seems appropriate and include works from reputable publisher. The shortened footnotes are used consistently and all refer to works listed as sources. Newspaper and magazine sources are used sparingly to add spice. The spot-check revealed only minor issues, mostly about citing this or that page. There was no hint of close paraphrasing. I'm gonna call this a pass. Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your hard work on the source review and for your support. Tim riley talk 17:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Schrocat[edit]
Support. A lovely read that passes all the FA criteria, and then some. Just one rather minor comment from me: you have three montages: in the first you have "Early influences: Luigi Cherubini (l) and Fromental Halévy (top);" in the other two you have "clockwise from top left". Of the two 'clockwise' ones, one is in brackets, the other is not. Is there a rationale behind the three different formats? – SchroCat (talk) 08:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, SchoCat. That's very kind. I agree consistency is wanted, but am not sure which of the three formats to choose. What think you? Tim riley talk 10:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Support from UC[edit]
Resolved
|
---|
12:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
More to follow. Enjoying it so far: the prose is particularly attractive throughout. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
|
- "Großer Griechenmarkt" should be in lang tags (with
|italic=no
) so that screen readers pronounce it correctly. The same is true for other non-English words and titles (e.g. "der Offenbacher"), though I haven't done a full check for them all.
-
- Just leaving this up for now to remind me to check back in when the whole lot are done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is all we have left: very happy to support at this stage. I've been doing a bit of a shift on the language tags, and will keep doing so -- having dipped my toe into French topics before, I sympathise with the sheer density of them! Very nice work overall and enviably well-written. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
ssilvers[edit]
The article is very good already, so here are some very picky points in the Early Years section.
- The "alt" descriptions of the photos don't usually say what the sitter is wearing. All of them would be called "well dressed" today, but can you specify "morning coat", "dinner jacket", etc. (at least for the solo sitters), to give some idea to blind readers?
- "His birthplace in the Großer Griechenmarkt was a short distance from the square that is now named after him, the Offenbachplatz." Would this be better in the Legacy section as: "A square in Cologne, the Offenbachplatz, named after him, is near his birthplace in the Großer Griechenmarkt."? I am not sure it would be better, I just wondered if you might think so, Tim, as that is how we have present such facts in some other articles.
- "lessons in ... flute, and guitar" -- Are you using the Oxford comma in this article?
- "Together with his brother Julius (violin) and sister Isabella (piano), Jacob played in a trio at local dance halls, inns and cafés, performing popular dance music and operatic arrangements." A shorter sentence could be: "Offenbach formed a trio with his brother Julius (violin) and sister Isabella (piano), playing popular dance music and operatic arrangements at local dance halls, inns and cafés."
- "the two most musically talented of his children" -- shorter: "his two most musically talented children"
- " had to persuade Cherubini even to give Jacob an audition" -- Do we need "even"? The subsequent sentences, I think, make clear that it was not an easy task.
Tim, is this level of pickiness helpful, or a waste of time? -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- That isn't for me to say. If you think your suggestions make a material improvement to the quality of the prose by all means make them. When I'm reviewing I try to distinguish between bad prose and prose that merely differs from how I would write it. – Tim riley talk 16:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Further comments:
- "recently born daughter" -- "infant daughter"?
- Early 1860s
- "his only stand-alone ballet". I think I know what you mean, but for anyone who does not know anything about ballet or that it can be found within an opera or other piece, perhaps you can clarify. The *compositions* sub-article says "full length", but that doesn't convey what you meant. How about "his only ballet presented as a separate work outside of an operetta"?
- The text says: "He continued to write most of his works for the company, with the exception of occasional pieces for the summer season at Bad Ems." From the note, however, it appears that he *did* write those pieces with the intention to play them in the Paris company's season, but merely premiered them at the summer venue. Perhaps: "He continued to write [[]] his works for the company, although he premiered several of them at summer seasons at Bad Ems during the 1860s." ?
- Last years
There is a note: "Guiraud added recitatives in place of spoken dialogue for the Vienna premiere. According to Keck, the rehearsal on 1 February lasted four and a half hours, and Carvalho decided to cut the Venice act, redistributing some of its music." Except for the first sentence, which is repeated soon afterwards in the text, the note seems to be about the French premiere, not Vienna, so it is confusing. User:Tim riley, would you please compare the note to the rest of the paragraph and clarify?
- Entirely concur. The sources differ about when Guiraud changed the dialogue into recitative, and I've pruned accordingly. Tim riley talk 17:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Works
In the opening section here, one song title is translated [in brackets], while the others are not. Should they all/none be translated, or is there a reason to translate some but not others? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- As I have said above to UndercoverClassicist, on the general point about translations, it's difficult, perhaps impossible, to get the mix right. On the one hand one doesn't want the prose to be submerged by an avalanche of translations, nor to patronise the reader by offering unnecessary translations, but on the other one doesn't want to leave people in the dark about less obvious foreign phrases or titles. Here I have added English translations where I thought they'd be helpful and not where they wouldn't, but I may have got it wrong in places, and will gladly entertain suggestions about adding or removing any. Tim riley talk 17:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Arrangements (overtures)
"...the scores usually performed and recorded are not by Offenbach, but were arranged..." Were they arranged from music in the respective operas, or do they contain any original sections unrelated to the opera? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Influence
We say "Les brigands was presented in London in 1871, 1873 and 1875; for the first of these, Gilbert made an English translation...". However, our article about Les brigands says that, while Gilbert translated the piece in 1871, his version was not performed until 1889 (when it premiered in first the US and then the UK). H. S. Leigh's English translation was performed in London in 1871 and 1875 at least, according to that article (citing Adams). Since this paragraph is about the influence on G&S, perhaps we could say, "A revival ofLes brigands in 1889 used an English translation by Gilbert...." -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I have added a footnote explaining that the 1871 version was not heard then but was given in 1889. It is important to make it clear that Gilbert was familiar with the piece before he wrote the libretto for The Pirates of Penzance in 1879. Tim riley talk 07:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Better, Tim, but this implies that Gilbert's version was only used once -- it had runs on Broadway, as well as in the WE, and also toured in Britain (refs in the Les Brigands article). Various later productions have used Gilbert's translation, which is easily accessible here, and Ohio Light Opera both performed and recorded it in 2007].
- Headings
To reduce the number of subheadings under Works, perhaps combine "Compositional method and musical structure" as one subheading? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- As I say above, I dislike lumping two unrelated subjects together merely to bulk out a paragraph. Tim riley talk 07:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Lead
"His best-known works were continually revived during the 20th century, and many of his operettas continue to be staged in the 21st." We provide little evidence of this in the text. Can you add a similar sentence to the Legacy section somewhere?
- Duplicate sentence.
- The sentence about the 1858 Broadway premiere of Les deux aveugles leading to O's continued Broadway success now appears twice in the article: first in the Life and Career section, and again in the Legacy section. This is not about O's legacy, but rather about productions on Broadway during his lifetime, so I think it is better in the Life and Career section. This is true also of the statement by Lamb adjoining it, which might also be better under Life? -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support. I think the article satisfies the requirements for promotion to FA. It is comprehensive and well-written, and as with everything that Tim riley does, the excellence of the research shines through. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
4meter4[edit]
Here are some suggestions for additional content just from looking at Andrew Lamb's entry in Grove.
- I think the article could place a stronger emphasis on Offenbach spreading the popularity of operetta on the global stage. In his opening, Lamb writes "It was through the success of Offenbach’s works abroad that operetta became an established international genre, producing outstanding national exponents in Strauss, Sullivan and Lehár and evolving into the 20th-century musical." Musical theatre historians have also written a through line to the musical, with Naden going as far as crediting Offenbach for "popularizing the musical form".
- There should probably be a mention of Offenbach's score for Pascal et Chambord (1839) which was his first significant commission for the theatre.
- There should also be a mention of his first public concerts as a cellist (as a soloist, not an ensemble player) which occurred with his brother in January 1839 according to Lamb.
- According to Lamb, his first operetta L’alcôve was rejected by the Opera Comique and he had to mount his own concerts to get it performed.
- The article currently doesn't give the specific year he was appointed conductor at the Comédie-Française. It's 1850.
- There probably should be a mention of Offenbach's other uncompleted work, the operetta Belle Lurette, which was completed after his death by Delibes.
Outside of Grove, I suggest looking at Offenbach's presence on Broadway and the American stage in general. The popularity of Offenbach's work on the American stage in the 19th century was significant for its impact on shaping the development of American musical theatre which deserves coverage in the article. Lamb's book 150 years of popular musical theatre makes this claim in addition to various works written by Gerald Bordman. This source on page 5 highlights an 1858 production of Les deux aveugles in New York which began a period of high popularity for Offenbach on the New York stage which lasted for the remainder of the century. Preston credits a slightly later production of Helene for igniting an American craze for French opera bouffe. IBDB's incomplete list gives a good idea of how popular his works were on the New York Stage. Obviously there will be better reference material than this. Page 24 of The Cambridge Companion to Operetta has some coverage of wide spread pirated versions of Offenbach's works on the American stage during the latter half of the nineteenth century. Bordman covers many of the original Broadway stagings of Offenbach's operettas, and also chronicles a number of original burlesque spoofs of those operetta productions that also appeared on Broadway. Bordman also chronicles Offenbach's appearances as a conductor on Broadway as well. Bordman's earlier book American Operetta: From H.M.S. Pinafore to Sweeney Todd essentially credits Offenbach as one of several major operetta composers whose works were the precursor to the American musical. Basically the American musical evolved from the operettas of Gilbert and Sullivan, Offenbach, etc. Other possible sources to explore down this path include: [3], [4], [5], [6] Additionally, there are a few Broadway productions made around Offenbach's music after his death which probably should get a mention in the legacy section. These include the 1944 Broadway play Helen Goes to Troy and the 1961 Broadway musical The Happiest Girl in the World. His music was also used in Maurice Béjart's Ballet of the 20th Century which toured to Broadway in 1979, and in the Broadway musical revue Those Were the Days (1999-1991).
- We mention American musicals: Irving Berlin and Rodgers and Hammerstein. I'll have a scout round and see if there's anything I can usefully incorporate about O's influence on the Broadway stage. I don't think we should single out individual one-off adaptations such as the 1944 and 1999 ones, any more than we mention the London adaptations of La belle Hélène by A. P. Herbert in 1932 and Michael Frayn in 1995. Tim riley talk 07:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I've added 150 words on the influence of O's operettas on American musical theatre. Tim riley talk 10:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Tim riley This is an improvement, but I still don't think the article has covered the meat of the scholarship of this area. Broadway has been entirely ignored (it's not mentioned once by name), with no mention of how Offenbach specifically impacted New York theatre for decades. I'm not seeing mention of the seminal 19th century New York stagings of his works in the 1850s and the 1860s in the body. This is a mistake, because these productions had a tremendous longterm impact on American theatre. Relegating the content to a single paragraph in the legacy section doesn't really do justice to the scope of the material. I notice that you imbedded important European stagings into the body of the article. What the article really could use is a paragraph highlighting the early New York productions while Offenbach was alive and the way those specific productions changed and shaped American tastes through the rest of the 19th century. (see sources linked above; they cover this) It also needs to highlight his subsequent longterm popularity on the Broadway stage through the second half of the 19th century. One doesn't currently get a clear picture that Offenbach was tremendously popular in America as a whole and on Broadway specifically for decades. That's important because it makes the connection to his tremendous impact on the development of the "American musical" specifically understandable. As one writer put it in the sources I provided above, "Offenbach was the wellspring of the American musical".4meter4 (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear! I suspect you may be approaching the topic from an excessively Americocentric angle. I have already incorporated the "wellspring" quote. I wonder what other editors think. Any thoughts on this from Wehwalt, Ssilvers, SchroCat and all comers? Tim riley talk 17:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don’t think asking for a single paragraph on Offenbach’s tremendous impact on a seminal American art form is WP:UNDUE. I would say that without it the topic is too Euro-centric and lacks an appropriate global perspective on the topic which one would expect from an FA class Wikipedia article. 4meter4 (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, and have given the article just such a paragraph. It is at the end of the Influence subsection. Tim riley talk 18:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Before commenting, I'd like to see your suggested paragraph, User:4meter4, and to know where you think it ought to go. Given that this is already in contention, I would suggest that it be as concise as possible to hit the most WP:Noteworthy facts as presented by the "meat of the scholarship". I note that Tim did add a good deal about Offenbach's impact on the development of musical theatre. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Given there already is a paragraph on the point, I wonder what more could or should be added without adding falling foul of UNDUE for giving too much US prominence on the subject. I feel the US angle is covered well in the new paragraph, but I'd be interested in hearing from 4meter4 what more they think appropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I've just done a swift word count of the Influences section which weighs in at 85 words on French successors; 123 words on Gilbert and Sullivan (with a 74-word footnote); 201 words on the Viennese school; 86 words on other European composers and 178 words on Americans. I'd like to add more to the first subsection, e.g. including O's influence if any on Lecocq, but I just can't find authoritative material. But I think we now have enough in the last subsection. Tim riley talk 11:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Given there already is a paragraph on the point, I wonder what more could or should be added without adding falling foul of UNDUE for giving too much US prominence on the subject. I feel the US angle is covered well in the new paragraph, but I'd be interested in hearing from 4meter4 what more they think appropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Before commenting, I'd like to see your suggested paragraph, User:4meter4, and to know where you think it ought to go. Given that this is already in contention, I would suggest that it be as concise as possible to hit the most WP:Noteworthy facts as presented by the "meat of the scholarship". I note that Tim did add a good deal about Offenbach's impact on the development of musical theatre. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, and have given the article just such a paragraph. It is at the end of the Influence subsection. Tim riley talk 18:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don’t think asking for a single paragraph on Offenbach’s tremendous impact on a seminal American art form is WP:UNDUE. I would say that without it the topic is too Euro-centric and lacks an appropriate global perspective on the topic which one would expect from an FA class Wikipedia article. 4meter4 (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear! I suspect you may be approaching the topic from an excessively Americocentric angle. I have already incorporated the "wellspring" quote. I wonder what other editors think. Any thoughts on this from Wehwalt, Ssilvers, SchroCat and all comers? Tim riley talk 17:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Tim riley This is an improvement, but I still don't think the article has covered the meat of the scholarship of this area. Broadway has been entirely ignored (it's not mentioned once by name), with no mention of how Offenbach specifically impacted New York theatre for decades. I'm not seeing mention of the seminal 19th century New York stagings of his works in the 1850s and the 1860s in the body. This is a mistake, because these productions had a tremendous longterm impact on American theatre. Relegating the content to a single paragraph in the legacy section doesn't really do justice to the scope of the material. I notice that you imbedded important European stagings into the body of the article. What the article really could use is a paragraph highlighting the early New York productions while Offenbach was alive and the way those specific productions changed and shaped American tastes through the rest of the 19th century. (see sources linked above; they cover this) It also needs to highlight his subsequent longterm popularity on the Broadway stage through the second half of the 19th century. One doesn't currently get a clear picture that Offenbach was tremendously popular in America as a whole and on Broadway specifically for decades. That's important because it makes the connection to his tremendous impact on the development of the "American musical" specifically understandable. As one writer put it in the sources I provided above, "Offenbach was the wellspring of the American musical".4meter4 (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I've added 150 words on the influence of O's operettas on American musical theatre. Tim riley talk 10:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Otherwise, the article seems to be pretty thorough. Nice work.4meter4 (talk) 01:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- 4meter4, thank you very much for these thoughts. Tim riley talk 07:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Update on current word count in Influence section: France 113; G&S 121 (plus footnote); Vienna 203; other European 85; America 211. Tim riley talk 12:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- This is a false measure, because the question is not merely about the Influence section, but has to do also with discussions of American productions of Offenbach vs. French, Viennese, European and other productions throughout the article. User:4meter4's comments above also suggest a paucity of discussion of American productions during Offenbach's lifetime in the Life section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Update on current word count in Influence section: France 113; G&S 121 (plus footnote); Vienna 203; other European 85; America 211. Tim riley talk 12:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Dudley[edit]
- You do not need to say twice in the lead that Tales of Hoffman has entered the standard repertory.
- As the lead is supposed to be a summary of the main text, should you give his birth and death dates in the main text?
- "the two most musically talented of his children, Julius and Jacob". Are you saying that Isabella was less talented, even though she became a professional musician?
- Redrawn.
- You are inconsistent whether his brother is Jules or Julius.
- No change needed, but it is interesting that you do not mention any prejudice against him on account of his Jewish heritage.
- Faris (p. 20) speculates that one reason why Isaac Offenbach chose Paris for his sons rather than other important musical centres such as Vienna or Berlin, is that France, much more secular since the Revolution, was more tolerant of religious minorities than those other two cities. But that is only speculative (though persuasive to my mind) and I think it is straying too far from the core facts for an encyclopaedia article. Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- You include Cherubini as an influence in the images but in the text imply not.
- "It was quickly produced in Europe". Maybe "elsewhere in Europe"
- "leaned more to romantic comic opera than to opéra bouffe". I think you should explain opéra bouffe and maybe mention it earlier as it was his own genre.
- I don't want to go into the distinctions between bouffonnerie musicale, comédie à ariettes, légende bretonne, légende napolitaine, opéra bouffe, opéra bouffon, opéra comique, opérette, opérette bouffe and opérette fantastique – all of them his genres – in the life section. I go into some detail in the Works section, where I think it belongs. In the Life section I could expand the text to "... leaned more to romantic comic opera than to the more exuberant [or ebullient/vivacious/effervescent] opéra bouffe" if you wish, though think the difference is implicit and the French term is blue-linked.
- I think adding "the more exuberant" would be helpful. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- 'Texts and word setting' section. It may be me, but I am unclear how far the wording of his compositions was from him and how far from his librettists.
- A bit of both. He came up with the ideas and his librettists elaborated on them. I cannot prove but am perfectly certain that neither Meilhac or Halévy wrote the words "Je suis l'époux de la reine/Poux de la reine/Poux de la reine" and "Le roi barbu qui s'avance/Bu qui s'avance/Bu qui s'avance". Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- The first two sentences in the section imply that he only came up with plots, not words, and the rest of the paragraph that he was writing the words. Maybe spell out before "He took advantage of the rhythmic flexibility of the French language" that librettos were partly written by him. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Although he wrote ballet music for many of his operettas". Does this mean for dance sequences or a ballet music style?
- "It is not clear how directly Offenbach influenced Johann Strauss. He encouraged Strauss to turn to operetta when they met in Vienna in 1864, but it was not until seven years later that Strauss did so. Offenbach's operettas were well established in Vienna, and Strauss worked on the lines developed by his Parisian colleague. In 1870s Vienna, an operetta composer who did not do so was quickly rebuked by the press." This seems contradictory. You say it is unclear how directly Offenbach influenced Strauss and then that Strauss had to work on his lines. "who did not do so" is vague. Presumably it means work on Offenbach's lines, but in what respect?
- JO certainly influenced Strauss, but probably only by example, it seems, rather than by tutelage. Gammond writes, "Offenbach gave shape and direction to the Viennese school", and quotes a Viennese critic demanding that composers "remain within the realm of pure operetta, a rule strictly observed by Offenbach". It is pure WP:OR on my part, but in Strauss's Die Fledermaus there are, it seems to me, Offenbachian elements - individual numbers, ensembles, choruses, spoken dialogue, and a happy ending after complications of plot - that follow O's lead, but in Strauss's work there is a more gemütlich atmosphere rather than O's more hard-edged gaiety. I can't think of anything in Offenbach that resembles the gentle, almost benedictory, "Brüderlein und Schwesterlein" in Fledermaus. But them's just my views, of course. Tim riley talk 17:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I am not clear what you mean by saying that he influenced Strauss by example rather than tutelage. Would not that apply to almost all composers he influenced? The wording of the article seems to imply that the devotion of critics to Offenbach's genre limited what Strauss was able to do rather than Strauss choosing to be influenced. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- "in Lamb's phrase, "there can never be a definitive score of a work that Offenbach never quite completed"". I hesitate to question your grammar, but "phrase"?
- Well, 'phrase' has various meanings. You are thinking of the grammatical term, defined by the OED as 'A small, unified group of words (in a sentence) that does not include both a subject and a predicate or finite verb', but the OED also defines the word as 'A particular choice or combination of words used to express an idea, sentiment, etc., in an effective manner; a striking or pithy expression.' I use the term in the latter sense here. Tim riley talk 17:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- IBDB database. I think you should spell out IBDB (as you do in external links). And I get an error message when I click the link.
- Another first rate article from Tim. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
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- Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
@FAC coordinators: it's been deathly quiet here for a fortnight or so. Is there anything I ought to be doing? Tim riley talk 15:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 19:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.