Template talk:Novel year

Novels Template‑class

	Novels portal This template is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel articles
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Books[edit]

It is okay having links to the relevant books category, but not part of a hierarchy implying that all novels are books. Most are delivered that way but the novel is a prose form that can be carried by a number of medium, the most popular is still the book. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 09:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And which category one should put e-books in? All novels are books; book is not a medium, book is a format. GregorB 13:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And in plain english please, what is you destinction here. The Book is an much abused term which is used to mean many things. Its "fundamental" meaning is the phisical container, with paper pages. A novel is not a book and can never be one, novels are normally made available in book form. However e-books are a misnomer, anyway. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 13:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Novels can be made available in book form (the most common, certainly in 21st century so far), electronically, as series in newspapers, periodicals, and other sequential publications (more popular in the past). :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 13:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to Book, an e-book is a kind of book. But then again: if it isn't, what is it? Which Wikipedia category holds e-books? And why would this distinction be important? I'm arguing here that "book" is a generic term that describes a format and a function, not the method of delivery. All novels are books, in a sense, simply because they are book-length texts (unlike e.g. poems and short stories).

By the way: this is relevant to WikiProject Novels, so I left a note pointing to this discussion on their talk page. GregorB 15:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is so relevant , thanks for doing that. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As you raise the length issue, we will continue on it. When does the length element kick in? At "Novel", "Novella", "Novelette" or "Short story" stage. If you think about this the Book aspect becomes largely irrlevant. A book is either a physical thing you can hold or it is an amorphous idea of a piece of writing that actually says very little about it. "Oh I've written a book" is the kind of vagary one might hear from our latest author. But, what has been written, a science textbook, a political essay, an article, a letter, a poem, a novel, a short story. The subject and literary form is everything; the notion of Book has become almost meaningless the usage is so vague!. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, definition of a book may be vague, but that does not come into equation here because: a) I know it when I see it, and b) the real question here is that, for any sensible definition of a book, is there a novel that is not a book. Out of written forms you mention, I don't think that a letter, a poem, or a short story (or say, a 4-page instruction manual) would be considered a "book" by anyone, so that would not be a "sensible definition". GregorB 21:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Categorization hierarchy[edit]

While removing some articles from "Year books" to more specific categories, I noticed that the "Year novels" categories are both under "Year books" and "Year fiction books" (the same appears to be true for the "Year short story collections"). The fiction books is not marked as a non-diffusing category, so I've come here to ask if the categorization should remain as it is now (and marking "Year fiction books" with the proper "non-diffusing" template) or if we should remove "Year novels" from "Year books". Courtesy ping to Οἶδα, who initially made the change in the template. Isabelle ^🔔 13:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I never changed the parent cat on this template (and on "Year short story collections") partly due to not wanting to make too bold of an edit without a discussion like this, and partly due to the fluidity of "fiction" and "novel". But a novel is generally understood to be a work of (and subcategory of) fiction, so I would support removing "Year novels" from "Year books" once and for all. Thanks for the ping! Οἶδα (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Οἶδα: I agree with you that novels are understood to be works of fiction (as our article on the subject states), so I went ahead and made the necessary changes to move "Year novels" to "Year fiction books" exclusively. I'm waiting to see if the change went through correctly and, if so, will apply the same changes to {{short story collection year}}. If anyone reverts the changes, we can discuss further here. Thanks for your input! Isabelle ^🔔 13:05, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]